I want to play an Epic Level Campaign


Recruitment

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I would like to play an Epic Level game. I am going to need a GM who is willing to do that, and has the ability and interest to do so. He could decide the other players are and set the character creation with rules with the exception of level starting at 20+. I encourage potential players to submit their character ideas, but (and this is important), NOT YOUR CHARACTER. It will be an Epic waste of your time if you post your character and no one wants to GM. My playing schedule is rather flexible but at the end of this month, I will only be able to play on weekends and other days I have off from school. I have two Fridays of every month reserved for another game. Other than that, Happy Postings!

Sczarni

If we could find a GM that would rock. I've been toying with a Rogue/Magus build. Rogue would be the favored class with a few ranks in Magus. I'd guess it like Rogue-12 or 14 : Magus-8 or 6. To make that work back story wise I'd say every 4th level the character would gain a Magus level as she/he has an arcane background but it took her/his arcane abilities some time to develop.


I would absolutely be down for this!! I have a few characters I could create for an epic game, but it would depend on the nature of the game as to what I played.


Naturally, just as I expceted, there are going to be plenty of people who would be willing to PLAY in an Epic Level Campagin, buuuuuut, that's NOT the problem. The problem is finding a GM. I did however ivite people to submit character ideas so this going to ALOT of char ideas and maybe even submissions, but I am doubtful on finding a GM.


Well, I guess I was wrong. I figured there would be a bunch of posts, at least for interest, But I can't even get that. Oh Well.


You do realize that this thread isn't even 24 hrs old yet, right? Sometimes it takes a day or to get responses.

Paitence helps with pbps...


I figured there would be more interest with at least people dotting, seeing as how I've seen a good amount of threads about wanting to play with epic level, but no one had seemed to try to start a game. But maybe this afternoon I will log back in and see something like 20 new. I can only hope.


Then again, I guess if we do actually turn out to be the only three who show interest in this, one of us could GM. It would take quite a bit of preparation on the GM's part, and I wouldn't expect to play for a while, but it could happen.


hrmm... are you looking for epic level in the sense of progressing beyond 20 in a single class, or are you just looking for folks to be allowed characters that have a combination of levels which are more than 20?

And are you expecting the DM to use the beyond 20 rules in the core book, the 3.5 Epic Level Handbook, or house rule things once chosen?


I would probably lean toward taking multiple classes after level 20, and quite honestly, I don't care how you decide to do the campaign, I will just be happy to find a DM willing to play an epic level.

Silver Crusade

I'd love to play in this game, but I'd be terrible at DMing it. Aside from having never DMed an epic game, I'd rather hit myself in the head with a hammer than DM another PBP game. I'm just not suited for it (making and updating maps online makes me want to scream)

So, yeah...if you find a DM I'll play. So, not giving you much help...sorry ^_~"


DreamAteiler seems to have some interest in DMing it, so you might be in luck.

Dark Archive

You know, what? I'll play if you get it up and running. I've got a lot of concepts, some of which look better later than earlier, for sure...

That said, I'm a huge fan of martial classes.


Well now we have enough people interested in playing, I figured we would, we need a GM. Refer to earlier posts to my current thought on GMing.


I am always up for an epic game. But the DM is the key. Epic characters should be treated more like a nation then a person. Cause they can really bring alot to bare.

I got plenty of concepts ;)


Potential GM here. I am running 3 other games. When 1 or 2 of them are done I will see if I have anything that fits an epic level game. I will most likely adjust a written module to add more RP. It probably won't last more than a year. Depending on how the VTT for Paizo works out we might be able to run a few live sessions to speed things along. That will also make me be more likely to run something with a longer range as far as in-game time goes.

If someone else comes in as a GM I would love to play, but I do know that high level play can give GM's headaches. If life does not get in the way I should post something more concrete in a few weeks(should be less than 4).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd probably be interested in revamping my old Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster from Living City to epic Pathfinder.

As to the lack of posts, remember that this weekend was both a major geekfest with Curiosity and a major PFS update.


Let me think about which old home-brew I want to dust off. and I may make an offering on this. Running and playing a successful epic game is vastly different than an Adventure Path.

It requires a significant amount of work from the GM, and the players. The players need to be very familiar with their own character's capabilities and able to maintain and organize extensive data, even for a fighter or barbarian.

I would also need to consider a whole set of house rules. I personally feel that 3.5 was just too broken. And won't be using anything like it.

Having said that, here are a few of the house rules I would consider, and would appreciate hearing some thoughts.

******
No dipping core/base classes. A prestige class must be taken to completion once started. the character must then continue in the original class.

Base/core classes stop at 20. Take another base/core class or a prestige class.

Spells after 9th level don't exist as is. Caster level increases allow use of meta-magic feats. I would also look to adding mass/communal to existing spells. Custom spells could be considered on a case by case basis.

Level progression increases stop at 20. Even levels increase BAB, odd levels increase one save, player's choice. Every odd level earns a feat.

No hit dice increases. Starting with the existing hit dice, increase their step by one per level, add 1 hp. D6's start turning into d8's, d12's don't increase, just add 1 HP. This helps slow power creep.(This one might get changed in play)

Knowledge:local requires specialization to country and/or major city. (yes you may end up with several Know:locals).

Epic arms and armor are artifacts, and quests to acquire. Players will be able to craft and stack abilities onto existing items, paying 1.5x cost per add on.

Players interested in joining a game would need to be willing and dedicated to understanding that uber-awesome builds may not work in a group setting and always win buttons are no fun for others.

Characters would be required to have some form manner of flaws. In addition, an extensive background story of who the character is, how they have impacted the world, and their major accomplishments would be necessary. Level 20 characters don't pop out of the woodwork.

What the character has been doing with their life up to this point would be part of that background.

Since I haven't selected the campaign yet, presenting character concepts won't be of much use. I would like to hear about your ideas regarding epic level house rules.

Grand Lodge

I would maybe be able to DM this, but im not sure as of now. School is starting up again soon, so if im not slammed with that, ill probably say yes. If i did, it would be a AP adjusted for higher level most likely, im no good at homebrewing anything


Some of these rules I have never encountered or had exp with so I cant really say. But some things that come to mind.

Having to quest for epic items will be a huge pain and slow things down alot. I mean by the time you finish a quest for a +6 armor for one person it will be time to upgrade. The cost of buying or creating epic items is enough of a road bloak to me. Lets face it at high lvls your gear dependent sense just about everything has brutal attacks and defenses. Thats what gear is for to even things out a little. Not to mention the CL required to craft the stuff means you have to find equally epic crafters. On top of that the crafting time is no joke at those lvls, unless you have a feat to cut it down but still.

Also placing flaws into characters to me is not needed and only hurts the player, nothing is foolproof. Everything has a weakness and part of epic play is not only covering up yours as much as you can but figuring out that of the enemy. You did not make it to epic by being reckless or foolish, at least thats the way I see it in my mind.

I would suggest expanding or removing caps on spells. At epic lvls about half of your spells are just useless. A magic missile or fireball just does nothing, a drop in the ocean. By removing or expanding the caps they retain their usefulness at epic lvl.

Thats what I can think off the top of my head.


I have a basic idea on where I would go if I were to run this: The PCs would start as members of an elite guard corps, chosen by the gods and granted powers sufficient to keep the planes separate from each other, preserving the precarious equilibrium that allows life to arise on each, preventing the whole thing from collapsing into the formless maelstrom that proceeded (and will follow) its existence.

Rules-wise, I'd probably start the campaign at 25, and expect folks to multi-class past 20.

For spell progression past 20, I'd say that at each caster level beyond 20 you can permanently adjust a specific spell known with a level's worth of metamagic feats, without increasing its level, but does NOT grant additional spell slots (not sure how I'll deal with spells known). These adjustments can be made in partial increments (so you could apply one caster level's worth of benefit to Quickening a spell, and then actually preparing a quickened version would only cost +2 levels instead of +3).

Intensify Spell (the feat) would be extended to cover all level based effects that are not governed by other meta-magic feats. So it will grant you additional bolts on a magic missile, or rays on a scorching ray, but will not adjust durations or ranges or areas.

Gear will remain limited by the standard rules of +5/+10. There's plenty of options to be used within those realms for it to be sufficient. Epic level protections will require the right Bane or an appropriate Alignment enhancement (Holy, Axiomatic, etc) to be penetrated.

Feats would occur at every odd level, ability increases at every 4.

Monster races would be acceptable, but you'd lose an amount of levels equal to your CR.

Gun based options would be disallowed for PCs, at least to begin with.

Lastly, as a word of warning, I don't run particularly easy campaigns. Expect that there will be times when there aren't obviously superior coursed of action available, that your enemies will target any weaknesses they can perceive, and that ultimately, the best your characters can likely hope for is dying as a hero rather than being mistaken for a villain.

So, lemme know if I'm what folks want. If not, I'll totally understand (and might throw out a character idea or two when I see ends up being run)


I would be ok with you GMing. I like what you have to go with, but we shall see what everyone else thinks.


I am ok with it too. I may pester you with questions though. ;)


@Omnichaos Too true, and if this was a table top game, or with players and characters that had progressed from 1st level through 20th. Unfortunately, we are not talking about these two scenarios.

The DM has to trust that the players actually know how to play higher level games, and that they are not going to try and insist on some overly optimized, min/maxing, single shot, I-win, character. And since I won't necessarily know that, I have chosen to make my job considerably easier by not allowing the game to be broken from the get-go.

If you are not questing for artifacts at level 20, what are you questing for?

As for the cost component of epic gear, a +5 Longsword with +5 enhancements costs $200,000, or $100,000 to craft, and will take a base of 200 days to create. Adding another +1 to make it epic would cost $242,000, and multiply by 10 if we add the arbitrary cost multiplier from 3.5. And it will take 2420 days to craft, or 6.63 years.

I'm thinking that going on a quest might actually be easier, or at least quicker. So I'm really not sure why stating that a quest is the preferred method of acquisition is a problem.

Everyone has a flaw. Nobody is perfect. Not even the gods of Golarion. So why is a character flaw a problem? I see it as a role playing hook. And at this level, it's all about the role playing.

I think that limiting HP creep will help keep lower level spells useful. Especially when they can be widened, heightened, etc. Allowing casters to remove or expand level caps sounds like a good feat or epic prestige class option.

Dark Archive

At this point, I'm okay with DreamAtelier's ideas, and will begin brainstorming on a lot of other, really neat ideas. There's so much room for building a character with this kind of firepower.


@dreamAtelier I like your options! I like your approach with just using Intensified spell. You could allow that for each +1 in caster level, it allows another +5 levels, or possibly a diminishing return. +1 gives 5 lvls, +2 gives a total of 8 levels, +3 (max) gives a total of 10 levels.

Count me in if you are willing to run a game.

Concerning CR's and monster races. There is a statement that racial abilities lose some of their value as characters progress, and that a GM may consider that CR's are dropped off progressively. The recommendation is that for every 3 character levels, one CR is dropped, up to half the racial CR. The example is a minotaur that at party level 10, the minotaur has 2 racial CR and 8 class levels, having been compensated for 2 CR at levels 7 and 10.

I reread the suggestions from pathfinder for epic level casting. I like the idea of giving additional spell slots or spells/day.


They have feats (3.5e) that cut down the time to craft so it does not take years. Maybe its the fact that your turning epic items into artifacts that has me a little off guard. I have seen artifacts in epic games, a PC should never have an artifact and epic items do not compare to artifacts in terms of power. A single artifact can turn a bad guy into a plane controlling godling that takes a group of epic power to bring down, so thats what has me spooked. >.<

May want to define flaw for me too. Do you mean character flaw like being stubborn or something game wise?

I would not mind taking a feat to remove caps on spells. I really dont see 5d4+5 magic missile being useful at such lvls, but 13d4+13 I feel better about. Just something about a magic missile swarm that I like, dont know why. :P

Would like to know if we can build our own race using the ARG. They have a table for power in relation to lvls as well so the CR would not go over. Its on page 219 if you have the book.

I am thinking a mystic theuge of nethys for my guy. Need to read up on mr. madness for some ideas.

Sczarni

I really like the ideas I see. I'm still interested in playing but I've got 4 pbp and a home game I GM. Let me see what happens with some of the other stuff I have going on before I completely commit. I'd probably go cleric of some type that or a rogue/arcane sorcerer.


So far I like the ideas that are being presented.

@DreamAtelier: I like your ideas for the game the most. Sounds about what I like in a good high level game.

As for what to play, I am thinking of a few ideas right now:

A Sorcerer/Dragon disciple.
A martial type (leaning towards a barbarian or fighter)
A druid.

These are the three that I have the most desire to play at the moment.


Still interested, got a few ideas to throw out as well:

Google Upper_Krust Immortal Handbook series. That's a great source for epic material, and his deity rules, especially on the rather low spectrum sound like they might be perfect for the above game concept Dream proposed.

Also, his version of epic magic items, called artifacts, is a much better and far less clunky way to handle gear in the high level games, let along epic.

Basically, each PC would get four artifacts. They would have a number of +s based on their CR/LA/etc that can be spent on normal weapon/armor bonuses, stat increases on a 1 to 1 basis, epic feats(again, 1 to 1), and lots more, depending on how powerful they become.

While I understand the desire to limit weapons/armor with the whole +5/+10, there has been extensive analysis done on epic play wherein it was determined that one needs a certain amount of bonuses from gear in order to beat epic monsters. Limiting our gear could spell our doom quite quickly.

Regarding spell caps, allow the taking of the 3.0 version of Enhance Spell, which increased the cap each time you took it and was stackable.

Dark Archive

Now that we're actually talking concepts, I think I'll throw a few ideas out myself.

I had played with the idea of an elven oracle of nature, perhaps multiclassed into paladin following Erastil. In fact, that image is now implanted in my mind.

Another idea was to make a Cleric/Holy Vindicator, for it seems I'm becoming a bigger and bigger fan of the Divine.

Also: Arcane Archer. Make it really, really shine.


Right now I am leaning towards wizard 8/cleric 7/mystic theurge 10 of nethys. I like the flavor and RP paths it opens up. Not to mention the spell selection and sheer number of spells. ;P


Fnord level 20 is ridiculous*, and forcing additional weaknesses is far from necessary. Even at level 20 no character is perfect. As far as questing for items, by the time you are at that level I would think some magic item is the last thing on your mind unless you really need it for something important. You have most likely battled higher demigods and arch devils, even if you did not kill them. Hit point bloat is not even something that is a concern for a GM. Defense for the monsters is more of an issue along with high saves and AC's from the players. I am not saying there won't be issues, but it won't be from hit points.

*I have ran past level 20 twice, and even when the characters were not minmaxed they were curbstomping a lot of things.

I think that whoever GM's should be someone with high level experience. I have already made two characters when a GM insisted on the players making the most powerful characters they could, and/or high level(20ish) level characters. They saw what they had to deal with, and dropped/left the game.

DreamAteller I don't mind being forced to run from a fight, but I only ask that the monster not win by GM Fiat. Being defeated because the monster has infinite HP or some other Mcguffin is not fun.


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@Mr.Swagger

Dude you just gave me a tarrasque flashback from early epic. Also reminds me about a epic lich with a ring made of pure negitive energy. Talk about PC hell, destroyed a whole plane to take down that one. A GM should not need to "sway" things, unless they lack knowledge. Just don't get mad when the PCs make a plane destroying bomb. xD


Very much interested in this, have a concept running for a while and would like to play a "shadowdancer", actually a multiclass ninja 20/monk 4/shadowdancer 1.


OmniChaos wrote:

@Mr.Swagger

Dude you just gave me a tarrasque flashback from early epic. Also reminds me about a epic lich with a ring made of pure negitive energy. Talk about PC hell, destroyed a whole plane to take down that one. A GM should not need to "sway" things, unless they lack knowledge. Just don't get mad when the PCs make a plane destroying bomb. xD

My group only managed to destroy a city. I now have a new goal. :)


fnord72 wrote:

@dreamAtelier I like your options! I like your approach with just using Intensified spell. You could allow that for each +1 in caster level, it allows another +5 levels, or possibly a diminishing return. +1 gives 5 lvls, +2 gives a total of 8 levels, +3 (max) gives a total of 10 levels.

Count me in if you are willing to run a game.

Concerning CR's and monster races. There is a statement that racial abilities lose some of their value as characters progress, and that a GM may consider that CR's are dropped off progressively. The recommendation is that for every 3 character levels, one CR is dropped, up to half the racial CR. The example is a minotaur that at party level 10, the minotaur has 2 racial CR and 8 class levels, having been compensated for 2 CR at levels 7 and 10.

I reread the suggestions from pathfinder for epic level casting. I like the idea of giving additional spell slots or spells/day.

Ahh, yes. The Intensified spell feat (with it's adjustments) would be stackable for the campaign. I had that clear in my head but forgot to state it explicitly, so good catch Fnord. I'll actually probably allow all metamagic feats to be stacked with themselves, because I'm not really opposed to the thought of characters at that power level throwing off a fireball that can incinerate a small town, if they're willing to invest the resources.

Permanently applied Heightens will allow spells to have an effective level higher than 9th (adjusting saves accordingly), despite being prepared in whatever level slot is appropriate.

I will probably not be using the rules for CR reduction, simply because I think they would prove unbalancing given the sheer number of class levels folks will have to build a character with, especially given the base hit dice of some monsters (not from a hit point perspective, because I agree with Mr. Swagger that hit point total is not a major thing at this level, but rather from the benefits (feats, saves, etc) that come with hit dice). Consider that using those rules, a Movanic Deva character would be allowed a full 20 class levels (CR 10 would allow for 15 class levels typically, but every third would reduce that CR by 1, ending up an an effective CR of 5). So, for five levels given up (still allowing them to play a level 20 character), someone could receive a small host of immunities and four extra feats (since they've effectively gained 7 hit dice over the rest of the party), as well as the varied other abilities of that angel type (once per day antimagic field is nothing to scoff at, even -or perhaps especially- in an epic level campaign).

That having been said, I admit I'm still debating the rule... so convincing arguments that will make me change my mind are always welcome.

Someone asked about building their own races using the ARG: I don't have a copy, so I'm gonna have to say no to that.

And no worries about the infinite HP or what not... that wasn't what I meant by it. I was more saying that a monster who identifies that only one of you has a weapon which can bypass its DR will focus on disarm/sundering that weapon, that a long term enemy will consider followers and holdings to be a valid target, that intelligent will lay traps and do their best to make you fight them on their terms and in the places of their greatest strengths, and things of that nature.


DreamAtelier wrote:
Someone asked about building their own races using the ARG: I don't have a copy, so I'm gonna have to say no to that.

Regardless of whether you allow custom races or not, I am willing to buy the PDF and gift it to you. Just my little way of supporting someone who would run a game such as this.


Dream, I'm interested in playing an Inquisitor 20. After that, I would like to take levels in the Divine Emissary PrC from ELH. I've done a PF conversion on a discussion thread for a different game and can post it here if you're interested.

Liberty's Edge

Definitely in for playing/applying for this. Epic is rough, tough and a lot of fun with the right people, but a pretty decently balanced team is one thing needed IMO too.

Kudos to at least the two peeps who have started to step up, but Dream, I personally throw my vote in for you (no offense fnord, I just happen to like Dream's rules a bit better). Let us know if you are going to do it!


Grand Moff Vixen wrote:
DreamAtelier wrote:
Someone asked about building their own races using the ARG: I don't have a copy, so I'm gonna have to say no to that.
Regardless of whether you allow custom races or not, I am willing to buy the PDF and gift it to you. Just my little way of supporting someone who would run a game such as this.

Or you can look here. The table I was talking about is right at the top of the page. Man I love the pfsrd. ;)


OmniChaos wrote:
Grand Moff Vixen wrote:
DreamAtelier wrote:
Someone asked about building their own races using the ARG: I don't have a copy, so I'm gonna have to say no to that.
Regardless of whether you allow custom races or not, I am willing to buy the PDF and gift it to you. Just my little way of supporting someone who would run a game such as this.
Or you can look here. The table I was talking about is right at the top of the page. Man I love the pfsrd. ;)

True that. I still like PDF's though as I can look at the book especially when I am in a place with no internet.

Sczarni

Since everyone is talking characters I'm thinking an arcane rogue. Probably taking 6 sorcerer and 14 rogue. The thought of sneak attacking with a magic missile amuses me. That is if it's even possible.


No worries Ricky, someone had to get the ball rolling on the DM side. My rule suggestions were to deal with what Swagger posted as an argument against my rules, but is actually in support of them. Without some control on creating characters at this level, a DM is going to end up with the most powerful characters someone can come up with.

I'm not sure that character concepts are appropriate at this point in the determination of running a game like this. I would personally expect that a significant portion of a character would not be the stat block, but the followers and holdings, the back story on what the character did during their life, and where they are now.

Are they a reclusive hermit that has been in hiding for decades? Are they a ruler of a small, or not-so-small kingdom? Do they have a harem in every port?

I am thinking that I would want players that have run through one of the AP's. And I would want them to develop a character who's background involved the completion of the AP, along with a summary of their major accomplishments through the course of the AP (yes this would be a spoiler for those that haven't run an AP, but then we are talking experienced players). If two players want to have backgrounds from the same AP, they would have to mesh their backgrounds together. This would provide a character history up to around 15-17th level. Then add in some background that gets the player to the starting level of the campaign.

@DreamAtelier I only just looked at the Diva, and I can see where you are coming from on that one, I was surprised that it's CR was 10 and it's HD was 12. I see that as either limiting what characters start with, or changing how fast the CR's fall off. It certainly makes sense to say no there. But what about a race that only has 2 or 3 CR?


@DreamAtelier would you be interested in a co-dm? I know from personal experience that tracking a pbp can be challenging without adding the complexity that a high level game entails.


I'm not adverse to a co-DM. We can talk and see if our thoughts mesh well in PM.

Races with small adjustments... I'm not sure about them, and I'll have to think about it. Custom built races are probably still going to be a no (even with the rules available on the srd, which I do thank folks for the link for) but more likely for reasons of setting than power. I'm going to be doing a lot of work just building the campaign world so that it can be fun for everyone, without having to try and figure out where some new race might factor in.

I'll try to get an official recruitment thread up sometime tomorrow, so that I can get everything into the campaign info tab where it will be easily referenced.


OmniChaos wrote:

They have feats (3.5e) that cut down the time to craft so it does not take years. Maybe its the fact that your turning epic items into artifacts that has me a little off guard. I have seen artifacts in epic games, a PC should never have an artifact and epic items do not compare to artifacts in terms of power. A single artifact can turn a bad guy into a plane controlling godling that takes a group of epic power to bring down, so thats what has me spooked. >.<

May want to define flaw for me too. Do you mean character flaw like being stubborn or something game wise?

I would not mind taking a feat to remove caps on spells. I really dont see 5d4+5 magic missile being useful at such lvls, but 13d4+13 I feel better about. Just something about a magic missile swarm that I like, dont know why. :P

Would like to know if we can build our own race using the ARG. They have a table for power in relation to lvls as well so the CR would not go over. Its on page 219 if you have the book.

I am thinking a mystic theuge of nethys for my guy. Need to read up on mr. madness for some ideas.

Especially if the Magic Missle swarm like that is maximized with the metamagic feat.

Sczarni

@Fnord i agree with you and I have a back story for my character and have figured out how she ended up where she is now.

As for rules and character building, there really does need to be strict limits on how and what we can have. I mean your talking 4-6 characters that are level 18-20+ and they have abilities and spells that can in the right combination make then completely broken and OP.


Personally it helps to have a character's build for me, based off my starting idea. If I know what race, class, and skills I will be investing in, the background supports that and draws from it.

A high lvl cleric should be a high priest so what does that job entail and how does it effect their life, how did they get to be high priest, did they start out in a place that disallowed their god or embraced it, how did they come to be a follower of that god, what set them apart from others, what did they specialize in that was important to the faith, what feats brought about their gods favor etc etc. Countless questions can spin off a build and so you create your background from that. I just find it easier so I focus on the stats then answer the many questions from it.

Thats just my method when I need a character for a game on short notice. But I sometimes do it if I get a mental block.

One question I have is whats the setting for this?


I would be a Ranger/20 Arcane Archer/5 I think. Either that, or I would play a Samurai. I would hope I would be able to play in this game, seeing as how I made this thread so I could, but I guess that's still your decision since your the GM.

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