Actually. Druids CAN spam detect magic all day long. read the Orison's class feature. same entry as sorcerers.
a rogue can use disable device to disable magic traps. key phrase is that they can do it with disable device. a druid can do it either with "Dispel Magic". they can also set off spell traps with a wand of "summon natures ally I". the wand costs 750 gold pieces and the summoned animals could kamikaze their way through most magic traps with a suicidal summon. most magic traps don't have reset timers short of DM Fiat.
Wildshape is 1/HR level, but it's 4 hours at level 4, and 2 uses may be used to make 12 hours at 6th level. with a trait, that is most of the day and effectively more than enough time to encompass a bunch of daily encounters. at 8th level, you get a third use and they are 8 hours each. effectively granting you all day wildshape.
I have been playing 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder for about 16 years, and I have never seen trapfinding shine. Not even a little.
Do some DMs just spam PCs with tons of powerful traps?
You have no idea
BBT: Some DMs do. I, for one, do not tailor my encounters for the PCs. I feel that it gives them unrealistic expectations for encounters if this is done. I do not cater to any specific build. That means if they have no trap scout in their party and they come across traps they may be sorry.
I also throw "inappropriate" CR encounters at them from time to time. Of course, I do this with their foreknowledge that this could happen and not every fight can be won by force of arms alone. In fact, some encounters are "won" by escaping successfully. IMO it has lead to funner games.
Shuriken: Ah, yes. Thank you for pointing that out. I concede that point.
Also, I would like to point out the important difference between disable and set off, trip, or dispel. Disabling a trap allows you to re-enable the trap. This can be important. If you set a trap off or trigger the trap purposefully and it does not have an automatic reset then this is not an option. If it is a magical trap and you dispel it this is also not an option. For this reason disarm > set off/trip/dispel.
a trap could trigger every time something happens, like stepping into a corridor
you can send a summoned animal in 30+ times to constantly trigger the trap thus, as it doesn't mean the trap stops working after one trigger
@Lune
Sorry, but I gotta say something here.
1: He wasn't saying that rogues/etc can't disarm magic traps, he was saying that Druids/anything with a good enough perception score CAN FIND them. Finding them is the important part. Once discovered they can be dealt with in multiple ways. A rogue with Trapfinding can disable them, OR someone with dispel magic can dispel them OR they can sometimes be triggered in other ways so that the characters themselves are not harmed.
2: Druids can spam Detect Magic all day. Wizards have a limited number of cantrips just as much as Druids have a limited number of orisons... both of them can be used repeatedly without being used up, that is how those spells work (the only difference is divine vs. arcane, and which spells)
3: I think someone else already pointed out that the difference in ability scores as far as skills go is not very significant. The biggest factors are skill ranks, class skills, and other bonuses.
4: Whether a druids wild shape or an alchemists mutagen is going to be up more depends very largely on both level and GM. (playstyle)
Lots of downtime = constant mutagen. high level = constant wild shape (remember it not only 1hr/lvl, it is also multiple uses as you level up.)
THAT SAID... I would still probably put an Alchemist at least as high if not higher than a druid for this discussion for multple reasons, including that I absolutely love them, plus their spell list is awesome. And discoveries are stupidly powerful. I mean seriously "mummification".... ok for the equivalent of a feat I can become IMMUNE to Cold/Nonlethal/Sleep/Paralysis (in a class that can already be immune to Poison and/or Disease) Alchemists are freaking sweet. Anyway, yeah. That is what I had to say.
Argh.... dc ate my post and lazarus isn't picking up the slack.
Mostly what other people have said before. I will also add that you didn't just say that the Alchemist could do it better, you said the druid couldn't do it: those are two different arguments. Trapfinding is nice, but by no means necessary.
BBT: Some DMs do. I, for one, do not tailor my encounters for the PCs. I feel that it gives them unrealistic expectations for encounters if this is done. I do not cater to any specific build. That means if they have no trap scout in their party and they come across traps they may be sorry.
I also throw "inappropriate" CR encounters at them from time to time. Of course, I do this with their foreknowledge that this could happen and not every fight can be won by force of arms alone. In fact, some encounters are "won" by escaping successfully. IMO it has lead to funner games.
Shuriken: Ah, yes. Thank you for pointing that out. I concede that point.
Also, I would like to point out the important difference between disable and set off, trip, or dispel. Disabling a trap allows you to re-enable the trap. This can be important. If you set a trap off or trigger the trap purposefully and it does not have an automatic reset then this is not an option. If it is a magical trap and you dispel it this is also not an option. For this reason disarm > set off/trip/dispel.
Good point about the difference between Disabling and other methods, I didn't think of that.
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Alchemist doesn't have trapfinding either anyhow. If that's a must have your only options are Oracle, Sorcerer, Ranger, Bard, or Rogue. Not Alchemist.
Crypt Breaker begs to differ.
it isn't the trapfinding that is an issue, it is disabling them properly/permanently
Has no one looked at the sheer number of bard archetypes??
You got your Dervish Dancer (Elven with the Elven Curve Blade as main weapon) to fill your melee DPR slot or the Dawnflower Dervish works as well.
Archeologist or Sandman for your trap finding needs.
Songhealer for your healer class.
Vanilla Bard or Savage Skald for you support buffs and social skill monkey.
And then Masterpieces for arcane or just have one go Prankster and make that one a ranged combatant.
Each Bard can get Spells and Feats that compliment their class (such as cure light wounds for the songhealer, heroic for your support bard etc.)
And if you do find yourself in the position where you need to talk your way out of a situation all of you should have different languages that you know and all of you need a high CHA for your Bardic Performances anyway so it works out.
Just saying a full Bard group is more specialized than you might think. Only one downside I can see from this and that is that there is no real tank (unless one of the bards is a half-orc then there is one because there are a couple feats for the half-orc bards that works).
P.S. I made an account just so that I could post how awesome a full bard team can be if you choose the right archetypes and the right spells and feats to make them even more specialized to where they are not just the silly bard band but a full team of well traversed spelunkers.
And another note each bard should spec in a different preform skill with 1 being dance (Dervish Dancer kinda takes that one) and one being Singing with the others using instruments so that you are indeed a band.
it isn't the trapfinding that is an issue, it is disabling them properly/permanentlyWhich you do not necessarily need trapfinding to do.
in many cases it is, but I guess it also greatly depends on how "trap-friendly" the GM is
constructing a resetting trap adds like 2 or something thereabouts to the trap's CR as do higher DCs, higher accuracy bonuses or higher average damage. and magic traps aren't allowed to be automatic reset without DM Fiat.
as said, depends on GM
I for one barely remember any magical traps that didn't constantly reset on their own and didn't need a proper rogue trap disabling for them
Just finished reading up on the Sandman and saw that this archetype is a Wizard and a Rouge wrapped into one class so there is your trap finder and your arcane person right there now all the group needs is a tank or a ranger and to be perfectly honest a group does not need a ranger in the group just someone to take all the damage so maybe a flashy half-orc to suck up some damage will fit in nicely in this group like say one that can bring all the enemies to his/her attention for the fight *cough*
Zotsune: Archeologist IMO is better than a Sandman, plus can also wear armor
I am surprised Inquisitors are not getting more love. They can do everything a bard does but better, and without sacrificing combat prowess or utility to do so. Not to mention their spell selection is pretty amazing. You can make a inquisitor that can do every roll, nearly all at once:
Face: 6+int skills and huge skill list
Sneaky trap guy: take disable device via traits and your set.
Melee: Start off as a half-orc for falchion proficency and your damage will grow exponentially as you level.
Healer: take the healing domain or pump wis for bonus spells per day
Blaster: arguably their weakest roll, inquisitors still have some nice blast/utility spells like judgement light and blistering invective, but really shine as a buffer/utility spellcaster instead.
I disagree. They don't do everything better. Other than damage they have any obvious advantages. They also can't disable magical traps with disable device. Bards also have a better spell list for versatility.
PS:I am not saying the inquisitor is a bad class.
How can a class that runs off Wisdom with the skill points in class skills and Perception as a class AND can spontanously cast summon spells not fulfill the role of trap scout?
And what do you consider an "arcanist" that makes it a key role for a party?
Sometimes setting the trap off gets the party in trouble. The room suddenly filling up with water while forcing you to fight monsters that can't drown is an example. <--Real trap from an AP.
Interzone: You aren't telling me anything I didn't already know and/or haven't already addressed in an earlier post. :)
I will also add that you didn't just say that the Alchemist could do it better, you said the druid couldn't do it: those are two different arguments. Trapfinding is nice, but by no means necessary.
Actually, if you look back at my first post on about Trapfinding I said, "Druids can not get this. They are unable to disarm magic traps." I did not say that they can not find them. And when I stated that they can not fulfill the role I was talking about at all levels of play and at the same level of proficiency that a Rogue (being the quintessential trap scout) could do it. You are welcome to your opinion, but it is my opinion that a character specializing in being a trap scout is FAR better off with Trapfinding than without.
Deadmanwalking: Thank you for pointing out what I thought I already had. Guess it was missed?
Ryu: As others pointed out, not all traps automatically reset. For those it is often better to disable them so you can enable them again later. Tripping the trap, setting it off or dispelling it will not allow you to do that. Thus, IMO, are sub par ways of dealing with traps as compared to Trapfinding.
For all these reasons I stand by my initial statement that a Druid can not fill the role of a trap scout.
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wraithstrike ninjaed me. I think he just likes showing off what good ninjas wraiths make.
Anyway, that is indeed an example I had in mind when I suggested disabling a trap is often better than breaking it or setting it off. You could later use that trap on the monsters.
ah yes, wraithstrike I remember a similar trap my team got into and died of 1-2 editions ago:
trap triggers room starts to fill up with murky water and the device can't be seen properly anymore, soon thereafter a swarm of piranhas got also into the room
If the entire building is an anti-magic field then there should not be any magic traps, and those are limited to a DC of 20 for disabling them.
What do the casters do in these buildings?
What do the casters do in these buildings?
The Polka.
If the entire building is an anti-magic field then there should not be any magic traps, and those are limited to a DC of 20 for disabling them.
What do the casters do in these buildings?
well, as said it wasn't in this edition
but the magical DC restriction can be circumvented by using some trapsmith abilities and an alchemist or similar to make it
Golarion is supposed to not have evil undead but it still has, personal range potions are not supposed to exist but they still do, there will always be exceptions even in this edition
sorry, that was supposed to be good, not evil.
I guess I better go to sleep now XD
If the entire building is an anti-magic field then there should not be any magic traps, and those are limited to a DC of 20 for disabling them.
What do the casters do in these buildings?
well, as said it wasn't in this edition
but the magical DC restriction can be circumvented by using some trapsmith abilities and an alchemist or similar to make it
Golarion is supposed to not have evil undead but it still has, personal range potions are not supposed to exist but they still do, there will always be exceptions even in this edition
Alchemist are considered to be casters when they use spells or things that duplicate spells. If they make a fireball trap(just an example) it is still magical subject to anything the same trap made by a wizard or cleric is subject to.
Actually, if you look back at my first post on about Trapfinding I said, "Druids can not get this.
THIS is what you said
They are unable to disarm magic traps." I did not say that they can not find them. And when I stated that they can not fulfill the role I was talking about at all levels of play and at the same level of proficiency that a Rogue (being the quintessential trap scout)
In that case you can't have the alchemist fill in the role of a healer, since you will never do that as well as a full healbot. You will never have as many hitpoints as the fighter or do as well as meatshielding. Its only in this one specific instance that your words have a meaning other than what you said. You will never have armor training, so you can't fulfill the role of meatshield...
could do it. You are welcome to your opinion, but it is my opinion that a character specializing in being a trap scout is FAR better off with Trapfinding than without.
Did i ever say that all other things being equal, they're not better with trapspotter? You cannot make that your one and only consideration.
It is a flat bonus and an incredibly situational benefit. It only comes in handy when you need to reset a magic trap or need to disarm a magical trap without setting it off before level 7.
It is far, FAR superseded by the spell-casters ability to autospot 99.99 percent of magical traps.
In that case you can't have the alchemist fill in the role of a healer, since you will never do that as well as a full healbot. You will never have as many hitpoints as the fighter or do as well as meatshielding.
Firstly, none of this is true. I can make a Alchemist that heals better than the average Cleric. I can make an Alchemist that has more hit points than an average Fighter. Even so, these qualities alone do not make the character better in the role of a support/healer/buffer or as a tank. A party support/healer/buffer has to be able to contribute the party in other ways and the Alchemist can still do that well while still remaining a competent healer. The party tank needs to have more than just good HP, they need AC, saves and ways to help their party by not letting baddies get past. The Alchemist can excel at all of this.
Look, I'm not trying to say that Alchemist is the best class at everything, but they are the most VERSATILE class. And that is what this thread is about. The point is that to be the most versatile you have to be able to fill all roles well if the party is made up of all the same class. In those various roles the Alchemist does better overall.
Did i ever say that all other things being equal, they're not better with trapspotter? You cannot make that your one and only consideration.
Did I say that you said that? It is not the only consideration. But it is the most important consideration for the trap scout which is what I was referring to.
It is far, FAR superseded by the spell-casters ability to autospot 99.99 percent of magical traps.
As I said, that does NOT supersede it. In fact, anyone can do that. Its called Permanency + Arcane Sight. And also, as I said, Druids do not get Detect Secret Door. So in my opinion that makes it sorta equal because everyone knows whats behind secret doors. ;)
Firstly, none of this is true.
That's the point. Its the conclusion you get if you follow your logic. Conversely following your argument for fulfilling your role...
I can make a [druid] that [deals with traps] better than the average [rogue]. A party [trap scout] to be able to contribute the party in other ways and the [druid] can still do that well while still remaining a competent [trap scout].
A druid pumping their wisdom is making themselves a better spellcaster. An alchemist pumping their wisdom is making themselves a worse alchemist.
Look, I'm not trying to say that Alchemist is the best class at everything, but they are the most VERSATILE class.
I don't think you've really looked into the possibilities with shape-shifting if you think that.
Did I say that you said that? It is not the only consideration. But it is the most important consideration for the trap scout which is what I was referring to.
Its a completely arbitrary billing as the most important consideration. Its a small bonus and some very situational and rarely used abilities.
As I said, that does NOT supersede it. In fact, anyone can do that. Its called Permanency + Arcane Sight.
You said it doesn't supersede it but you're not making a case for it.
7,500 cost for the arcane sight+ (11th level caster*5th level spell*10gp) 550= 8,050 gp. As a magic item you'd need to be at least level 7 to afford it. Thats pretty expensive and depends on you finding an 11th level NPC to cast it for you: Thats the ruler of Absolom, not nameless hedgewizard number 5.
And also, as I said, Druids do not get Detect Secret Door. So in my opinion that makes it sorta equal because everyone knows whats behind secret doors. ;)
Its a completely useless spell and not worth considering.
I am going to sidestep the alchemist vs druid discussion and just put my vote for sorcerers.
Skill Monkey Trapfinder - Seeker/Sage archetype you have nearly as much skill points as a rogue and you have trap finding and you still have 9 levels of spell casting. This archetype combo literally begs the question why does the rogue class even exist? Use traits and the feat additional traits if you need some rogue class skills.
Tank/Warrior - Sylvan = polymorph spells + AC that can become stronger than a druid's, more than adequate for a frontline melee.
Healer/Buffer - Razmiran priest - you can cast from items without expending the item. Yeah free resurrections once you pay for it once.
Human Arcane Bloodline - as the specialize arcanist.
Half-Elf any bloodline maybe as face with paragon surge to cover any odd spells that you may need to steamroll any encounter.
An animal companion is not a front line combatant, even when buffed.
The Razmiran priest has to wait until level 9 or 10 before his ability comes into play. I think the idea of this thread was to be able to go from level 1.
The others I can see an argument for.
I would like to see that super healing alchemist. Just to be clear handling hit point damage is not all a healer does. Removing various other bad status affects also has to happen.
An animal companion is not a front line combatant, even when buffed.
Might be true at the higher levels, but for low to mid they can do fine.
Human Sylvan sorcerer takes eye for talent, puts the ability into dex
A velociraptor in leather barding with weapon finesse as their feat has an ac of
An AC of 18 (10+ 4 dex +2 armor +1 size +1 natural armor = 18. Slightly higher if the sylvan sorcerer casts mage armor on them.)
15 hp (4.5 +4.5 +3 +3)
Bite/claw/claw at + +6/+6/+6 for 1d6/1d4/1d4
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Don't forget, if you all play bards, you can be a band. Tour the world, do fey dust off succubi's backs, etc.
Haha reminds me of an old campaign where we dubbed ourselves "The Bard Barians". We were all horribly stated half-orcs and such using 3.5 rules. Performances would start with twin horns of fog blowing out over the stage, a chariot carrying out the band's performers through the mist, then a blast from a horn of valhalla would summon barbarians to fight onstage while we performed. It was a jolly mess lol
Zotsune: Archeologist IMO is better than a Sandman, plus can also wear armor
However does the Archeologist get sneak attack? Also does the Archeologist get a chance to redirect magic back to the caster (granted that is a level 20 bardic performance)? Nope only the Sandman can do that
And strictly speaking which one is more Rouge lie the Sandman gets that because of all of the things he can do to anyone without their DEX bonus to AC.
And you can still wear light armor as a Sandman there is nothing that said that you can't wear armor. Because remember a bard thing they can cast spells while wearing light armor with no chance of the spell failing. That alone helps them with the most versatile and best group of 5 there is and there is even one Bard Archetype that allows you to go up to heavy armor with no chance of the spell failing, that archetype is call the Arcane Duelist.
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Instead of stating which class is the most versatile and archetypes/what not, could people please start posting the actual party composition? For instance all the bard advocates post their 5 player party comp stating what archetypes and how they work together. Not character builds just something similar to how I posted an Inquisitor party. Because it's hard to be convinced when you can't see the actual party.
Don't forget, if you all play bards, you can be a band. Tour the world, do fey dust off succubi's backs, etc.Haha reminds me of an old campaign where we dubbed ourselves "The Bard Barians". We were all horribly stated half-orcs and such using 3.5 rules. Performances would start with twin horns of fog blowing out over the stage, a chariot carrying out the band's performers through the mist, then a blast from a horn of valhalla would summon barbarians to fight onstage while we performed. It was a jolly mess lol
Hahahaha! My buddies and I had a whole party in mind, but it involved going to a con and pretending not to know each other, despite all our characters having at least one bard level. Poison, the Ninja! Whitesnake, the Druid! Edvard Von Hallen, Fighter! Etc.
I would like to see that super healing alchemist. Just to be clear handling hit point damage is not all a healer does. Removing various other bad status affects also has to happen.
I think he's talking about the Churgion archtype for alchemists as far as being like a cleric.
