Glutton: Was in a party with a changling factotum that could take 10 on 11 skills with a +42 check.
hah, exemplar/changeling rogue/factotum/chameleon build?
How'd you know? *rolls eyes*
|
I'm so going to ask a GM for Scarred Witch Doctor allowance if I ever get to play in Carrion Crown, where Orcs are less likely to be killed on sight. Dirty Fighter 1/Witch Doctor 5(strength patron)/Eldritch Knight. Sounds incredibly hardy and pretty versatile as well.
On the alchemists, it's true that they need time to set up their defenses and buffs, but those buffs and things do offset their low saves and relative fragility. Heroism, Owl's Wisdom, False Life, Shield, etc. They just need time.
Alchemists run out of bombs with about the same frequency as wizards do run out of their blasts and need just as much prep time. That brings to my mind one issue: Yes, in actual play, the all-chemical party would need a pretty lenient GM to allow all the tricks a prepared spellcasting troupe requires to really maximize their potential, such as casing the encounter/dungeon/etc area beforehand, spell list shuffling and trips back and forth, but the power of theorycraft is that these kinds of reciprocal issues hardly get mentioned. A party of all-spellcasters is only as powerful as the gm allows.
Funny anecdote about that: Played in a campaign where the lack of healing in our low-level party forced us to travel back and forth between a dungeon and the resident town. Travel was by boat. In theorycraft, things such as a)the dungeon residents coming back and wrecking the boat b)the dungeon area getting more and more fortified c)the BBEG deciding to relocate and the party having to hunt her down might all get mentioned as distinct possibilities, but there'd be no way to really account for those things.
5 monks, obviaaas
It's a little different than the OP's main point of this thread, but I'd like to see a Brethren party: a bunch of priestly types. Cleric, Inquisitor, Monk, Paladin. Maybe a Ranger or Druid or Celestial Sorcerer. I think it would be flavorful and tight.
A traveling Coven as well. Witch, Hexcrafter, Accursed bloodline Sorcerer and maybe a changeling melee type.
Or the Brethren acting as witch hunters against the Coven!!!
I've always wanted to run a campaign where the PCs are "witches" and had to deal with witch hunters. Or vice-versa, where the PCs are high-up muckety-mucks with a thing against arcanists.
Though there are several classes that would be good for that, I just have to pitch in my support for the Alchemist.
They can get their ACs up astronomically high, they have great melee attacks with their mutagens, great options for ranged between bombs and Throw Anything, also some great debuffing options like Dispelling Bomb and Tanglefoot Bomb.
Alchemists can use Wands and Staves. Something that often seems to get missed, somehow. This opens up Cure Wands and Haste Wands as an option.
"An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so)." (Emphasis mine.)
Spell-trigger = Wands and Staves. Spell-completion = Scrolls.
All told, the Druid probably is the overall best for this, but I just really like the Alchemists.
1. Clerics
2. Bards
3. Druid/Inquisitor
Band of Bards. Honestly, with the Diplomacy builds that can come out of them you don't even need combat. Just walk into a Dungeon filled with monsters and walk out with a hoard of groupies. :P
As far as others I would probably say Druid, Cleric, and Oracle.
Don't have much experience with Inquisitors, so can't really comment on their effectiveness.
|
A note, bards may be the most versatile class but a total party of bards would just be... A circus lol?
They are designed to be a support class. This thread wants a vesatile party (of the same class) not just the most versatile class. A versatile party (of the same class) should be able to tackle every problem a typical 4 party class (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue) could handle.
Bards cannot build into effective archers or melee fighters.
This is why my vote goes to the Inquisitor. Not only would a band of multiple inquisitors with different ideologies be flavorfully awesome, but the party could be structured this way:
Inquisitor (Spellbreaker/Spellkiller Inquisition or Rage Subdomain): Role is battlefield control and anti-caster. Uses a reach weapon
Inquisitor (Infilitrator/Trickery Domain): Uses a ranged or melee weapon (player prefence). If ranged he should also be a Preacher. This character acts as the party's face.
Inquisitor (vanilla/Feather Subdomain): Using boon animal companion provides a flank partner as extra DPR (tiger, wolf, ect.) or tank (anklyosaraus w/barding). Acts as the tracker and monster identifier.
Inquisitor (Spellbreaker or Preacher/Destruction Domain): Ranged inquisitor. Role is anti-caster and slaying everything.
there are archetypes for the bard that makes it capable to fill all the roles like the Archeologist can replace the Rogue while no Inquisitor archetype is a proper trapfinder, and every character can get extra benefits through Eldritch Heritage feats, the Godling classes can also be very flexible and useful
commoners are not versatile, they are red shirts
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not versatile!?
Commoner with a 10-ft pole = rogue
Commoner with a club = fighter
Commoner with alchemists fire and tanglefoot bag = wizard
Commoner with a prayer book begging the gods to protect him = cleric
Commoner with a lute = bard
Commoner with a pet dog = Druid
Angry commoner = barbarian
Unarmed commoner = monk
Inbred commoner = sorcerer
Commoner in a forest = ranger
Self-righteous commoner = paladin
That's pretty versatile.
Druids. Druids. And Druids. You don't even need to work at it. You have a meat shielding melee druid who comes with a meat shield pet. You can do a sneaky druid that comes with his own meat shield and can turn into a mouse to sneak into places. Someone with a high wis can blast things with fire. They ALL heal themselves.
The entire party can just fly over most obstacles and encounters.
The entire party can turn into earth elementals and earthglide to the macguffin.
|
|
Bards build into perfectly good archers they aren't the number 1 class for archery but they're not bad either. Mind having quad Bards reduces their usefulness since they can't stack the bonuses from inspire but with the right abilities chosen and archetypes I think it can work.
It can work, just won't be the most versatile. And yes they can make subpar archers or melee if built correctly. But the Inquisitor can be awesome melee or awesome ranged in addition to covering skills and spells.
Not versatile!?
Commoner with a 10-ft pole = rogue
Commoner with a club = fighter
Commoner with alchemists fire and tanglefoot bag = wizard
Commoner with a prayer book begging the gods to protect him = cleric
Commoner with a lute = bard
Commoner with a pet dog = Druid
Angry commoner = barbarian
Unarmed commoner = monk
Inbred commoner = sorcerer
Commoner in a forest = ranger
Self-righteous commoner = paladinThat's pretty versatile.
in that case, let's pretend a tin can is an iron golem or that a kitten is a weretiger too, and if you close your eyes you are invisible
The classes in 3.5 built for pure versatility are the Factotum (20 level) and the Chameleon (10th level). Both are built to be able to sub for any other class on either a moment's notice or a day's notice.
==Aelryinth
I am surprised Inquisitors are not getting more love. They can do everything a bard does but better, and without sacrificing combat prowess or utility to do so. Not to mention their spell selection is pretty amazing. You can make a inquisitor that can do every roll, nearly all at once:
Face: 6+int skills and huge skill list
Sneaky trap guy: take disable device via traits and your set.
Melee: Start off as a half-orc for falchion proficency and your damage will grow exponentially as you level.
Healer: take the healing domain or pump wis for bonus spells per day
Blaster: arguably their weakest roll, inquisitors still have some nice blast/utility spells like judgement light and blistering invective, but really shine as a buffer/utility spellcaster instead.
Not versatile!?
Commoner with a 10-ft pole = rogue
Is it the commoner or the pole?
Commoner with a pet dog = Druid
Hey, at first level a riding dog is better than most characters.
Unarmed commoner = monk
You sir, have insulted the noble peasant profession! Someone chip in with me so i can buy a glove to slap you with.
|
|
Besides which Inquisitors are already subpar archers too compared to top tier archers so it's not like we're comparing a fighter archer with the bard or anything.
I understand a single bard vs. a single inquisitor will be much more versatile. But the bard lacks enough focus to warrant an entire party of them. Inquisitors can focus into different builds and be very effective.
|
Melee DPR is behind the most basically optimized fighter unless knife master with greater invisibility or schrodinger's flaking partner or using sap adept/mastery. Knife Master is an archetype so it won't work with ninja, leaving greater invisibility pretty much out of the question since it's not wandable. Scroll UMD DCs are crazy.
All 5 rogues take the gang up and outflank feats.
Beyond that: diversify.
The classes in 3.5 built for pure versatility are the Factotum (20 level) and the Chameleon (10th level). Both are built to be able to sub for any other class on either a moment's notice or a day's notice.
==Aelryinth
I assume this thread is supposed to be only about Pathfinder classes, otherwise 3.5 stuff and classes from other systems get mixed in
I love alchemists, but they have one major flaw: Really low will saves. That can TPK a party right quick. One fear aura you can get in some major trouble. All wizards or witches can die really easy if caught unawares.
Here's my list of optimized choices:
1. Druids
2. Bards
3. Summoners
Here's my list of fun choices regardless of optimization:
1. Bards
2. Rogues
3. Monks
Any class that can add some combat usage, while having some versatility.
Bard -- there is a reason why it's considered the best 5th character for a party
Cleric -- More healing, good armor, great saves, fair combat abilities
Witch -- The full bag of tricks for a caster.
Ranger -- more combat able than any of the others, less of caster, but a fair skill monkey
if you mention witches then I wonder why their best ability isn't pointed out: hexes
Druids can not fulfill the roles of trap scout or arcanist.
Alchemists can fulfill every role.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Druids can not fulfill the roles of trap scout
Balderdash. A high perception score and a good wisdom do that just fine. You do not need trap finding to find traps, and stealth as a class skill isn't exactly hard to come by these days.
Experimental evidence in progress.
or arcanist.
Druids cast a lot of the arcane utility and offensive spells already.
Alchemists can fulfill every role.
I find them a little rough on melee when they're surprised and haven't had time to buff up.
Clerics and Bards.
Are Summoners out? (I skimmed) 5 Summoners plus 5 eidolons equals 10 party members, 5 casters and 5, um, eidolons, which can pretty much replicate anything any class or race can do. Tanks at low levels, skill monkeys, trapfinders, scouts, mounts, even party face.
And for all the things Summoners can't do, one or three eidolons can be dismissed and any number of summoned creatures can appear to do whatever is needed. Especially at higher levels- our game's summoner makes use of the menagerie (hound archons are amazingly versatile.)
deuxhero:
Trapfinding
A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Druids can not get this. They are unable to disarm magic traps. Alchemists can get this same ability with the Crypt Breaker archetype. They can also sneak attack via the Vivisectionist. They have the same skill points/level as a druid and will typically have more points to deal with as their primary casting stat is Int. They also have Perception as a class skill. They do get Disable Device as a class skill which is typically pretty important for a trap scout. Druids do not get this.
An Arcanist is generally thought of as someone who deals with arcane spells. For the purposes of fulfilling a role, however, I would classify them as those who can effectively deal damage with spells, SU or SP abilities right out of the box. And I'm not talking about Magic Stone here. Also, having Knowledge (arcana) as a class skill is helpful here.
You do not need trap finding to find traps...
You do if they are magical which many of the later level ones are. Please see my above post. And if we are talking about truly fulfilling a role then we are not talking about just doing so at first level, but throughout the party's career.
Stealth is potentially a separate role. Not all trap scouts are stealthers and not all stealthers are trap scouts.
I find them a little rough on melee when they're surprised and haven't had time to buff up.
Worse off than a druid in the same circumstances? I would disagree. And with buffs I'd say they are comparable. Here is an example of a melee Alchemist.
IMO for total versatility I'd say Alchemist > Summoner > Druid.
I am a big fan of playing rogues, however, the biggest part of a trap is spotting it. There is usually another way to get around it besides disable device. Magic casting classes, like um...DRUIDS! often have ways to simply bypass. Perception is also based on wisdom a primary stat of um ... DRUIDS!
I see where Big Norse Woof is going.
I still think party of Bards would put the Par TEE in party...but Druids would be a very strong second.
Greg
EDIT: I leave summoners off the list, though Pathfinder/PFS legal.. in the three homebrew campaigns I am in, they are allowed only in one... and it is so thorougly houseruled, I forget many of the actual rules to them now.
Greg, please see in the post above where I point out the Trapfinding skill and where it gives a bonus equal to 1/2 her level. This quickly eclipses the Wisdom bonus from Druids. You are also making a likely false assumption that an Alchemist who is specializing in being a trap scout would not prioritize Wisdom.
Simply put Alchemists can find traps better than Druids and can disable and bypass them better as well.
You do not need trap finding to find traps...You do if they are magical
No. You do not. They cannot DISARM magical traps with disable device but can spot them just fine. Druids are even better at spotting them than rogues or alchemists because they can spam detect magic all day long. Once a trap's been spotted its easy to walk around, set it off etc. If you for some reason, can't go around it, can't just set it off, then you can dispel it.
which many of the later level ones are. Please see my above post. And if we are talking about truly fulfilling a role then we are not talking about just doing so at first level, but throughout the party's career.
By the time 1/2 the rogue or alchemists level hits the difference with the druids wisdom modifier you're looking around 10th level. At that point everyone is auto spotting the traps anyway.
Worse off than a druid in the same circumstances?
Yes. Because a druid can shapeshift when they get to the dungeon (or even when they wake up in the morning) and have it last the entire dungeon. The mutagen doesn't usually last that long.
Im just curious, and this has always bugged me. Why is it that the more learned Cleric gets 2 skill points when the more broken (even after all Paizo did) and unedamicated Druid gets 4?
natural selection. Druids initiates that don't learn what berries are poisonous don't go on to become full fledged druids.
More seriously, to a druid most of their skills ARE worship. There's no dichotomy between worship, living, and life skills. Survival, knowledge nature, swimming, and climbing bring you closer to nature. You don't learn about your religion and THEN learn something else, you learn your religion while doing something else.
No. You do not. They cannot DISARM magical traps with disable device but can spot them just fine. Druids are even better at spotting them than rogues or alchemists because they can spam detect magic all day long. Once a trap's been spotted its easy to walk around, set it off etc. If you for some reason, can't go around it, can't just set it off, then you can dispel it.You do not need trap finding to find traps...You do if they are magical
Excuse me?
Rogues (and other characters with the trapfinding class feature) can disarm magic traps.
Yes. Yes, they can.
Also, Druids can not spam detect magic all day long like a Wizard or Sorcerer can with Cantrips. They have a limited number of Orisons per day.
Druids also do not have Detect Secret Doors on their list as Alchemists do.
By the time 1/2 the rogue or alchemists level hits the difference with the druids wisdom modifier you're looking around 10th level. At that point everyone is auto spotting the traps anyway.
Once again, you are making the likely false assumption that an Alchemist who is focused on being a trap scout would not prioritize Wisdom. Also, again, as previously mentioned, classes without Trapfinding can not disarm magical traps.
Yes. Because a druid can shapeshift when they get to the dungeon (or even when they wake up in the morning) and have it last the entire dungeon. The mutagen doesn't usually last that long.
On the contrary, builds that focus on Mutagens can have the Mutagen active for every waking hour for the Alchemist. And they get it at first level. And are only limited in the number of times per day that they can use it by if there is an hour of down time between encounters. And the Mutagen is better. And it allows them to still wear armor without needing to have it have the Wild special property. And they can wear better armor than the Druid can with the restriction of metal being removed.
Oh, and Wild Shape is 1hr/level so they can not do it all day/night long.
I have been playing 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder for about 16 years, and I have never seen trapfinding shine. Not even a little.
Do some DMs just spam PCs with tons of powerful traps?
I try to design encounters to meet the abilities of the PCs. So if there are one or more rogues, I'm more likely to put more traps in place. If PCs really like to search for secret doors, I throw in some secret doors for them to find. If they have fire resistance, I give them some fire to resist. If they select vermin as their favored enemy, I throw vermin at them (usually not literally).