It's a bit underwhelming so far...


Shattered Star

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Paizo Employee Creative Director

Arnwyn wrote:
Are the messageboard users the main source of marketing info? Are there other sources? How much weight does Paizo put into messageboards comments? Are the messageboard users representative of those interested in Paizo products as a whole? (Or are they actually, when all is said and done, simply niche consumers?)

No.

Yes.
A pretty significant amount.
I have to believe so.
It's a niche industry, but I like to think that in that Paizo customers are not niche customers, but the most IMPORTANT customers.


James, perhaps you can answer this and perhaps you can't. In fact, I know this question is better suited to certain other Paizo staffers. I also respect Paizo needs to keep 98% of their business operations (marketing, finances, and production) private. Having worked in operations management, project management, and now in marketing, I absolutely understand the reasons for that. So I will ask this in such a way as to ensure the answer can be as vague as possible:

When analyzing trends and performing forecasting, does Paizo attach "weights" to any of the analytic systems/tools in use or use linear regression? That may satisfy questions hovering around messageboard "pull" without actually quantifying anything. Every business uses tools, that's no secret. If that's still too specific for you, I'll completely understand. Cheers.


Apologies for two posts in a row but since these are vastly different matters of address I figure it's warranted. As promised, Vikingson, I wanted to finish our conversation from yesterday. Gaming ran late last night, so this is the first chance I had to really respond in depth.

Vikingson wrote:
And be it for a more diverse opinion on the whole matter. Just consider that of the 15 players I game with (in Pathfinder), only two of us post on this forum. Be it for language skills (all Europeans here) , interest, "just being players" or general aversion to forums. But none of the other players wants "dungeoneering" either, and they do purchase all the general paizo stuff.

I know I already responded to this bit yesterday but I wanted to address one more thing in this paragraph. You mentioned you're European, and with your forum name, I assume Scandinavian. Maybe this is all simply a matter of regional tastes. Perhaps that's why trends in your area seem to come across as different than what the majority/minority indicates over here. Now, I feel ya on that one. As a Canadian it's sometimes easy to think of ourselves as northern Americans but the differences in simple things like preferences and cultural tastes can be quite striking when you actually line us up against each other. It may simply be a matter of taste.

If that's the case, Paizo's trends aren't likely to change anytime soon since their primary market follows the trends of American gamers. Even still, they're likely to produce content in the near future which I'm sure you'll enjoy. Paizo definitely tries to keep their subject matter relatively varied.

Vikingson wrote:

Looking at my good Matze, who is running a game for eight to ten year olds, the kids they are actually much happier with "outside plots" instead of "Dungeon Crawls", because they are much less stressful with regard to concentration. They enjoy doing wild stuff with rangers, cavaliers and wizards, riding down kobolds in the forest, trying to entrap a giant and fighting witches, instead of smashing from room to room.

The big problem with dungeons, IMHO, is that they actually proclaim "chopping down monsters" to be an adventure. An adventure, in my book at least, is a thrilling and heroic story, not localised monster-icide
Our generation may have been raised on the "old dungeons", but that does not mean, one cannot do much better these days. And the great campaigns I most fondly remember from my youth/teen years are the "Desert of Desolation" or the excellent UK-series of adventures. And not "Tomb of Horrors" or "Temple of Elemental Evil".

As for your good Matze and the kids he's running the game for, this is pretty much covered by what I said above regarding regional tastes (possibly). It also goes back to what I said yesterday regarding putting a "roof" on it. I agree that "smashing from room to room" sucks. It sucks a lot. By why does a much better plot require it to be an "outside plot". You can have all that great wild stuff "inside" as well. Granted, some of those things require really huge rooms and roofs but it's easily possibly in fantasy dungeons. Look at some of the levels of Kaer Maga or Undermountain (I still remember the Farm level and it's sub-level, The Slitherswamp, quite fondly). Undermountain's Sargauth level had the city of Skullport, an excellent place for stories of intrigue and skulduggery.

Kaer Maga has:

Spoiler:
an entire forest in one level and not one, but two, cities spread throughout other levels. Among other interesting craziness. In fact, chapter three of The Shattered Star is going to use that forest level as its "dungeon"; hardly what I would call traditional dungeon-crawling.

Finally to address your last paragraph. Again, I agree that just chopping down monsters sucks. But it doesn't have to be the case for dungeons. And it can be found in any adventure regardless of location. And while I threw out Tomb of Horrors as one of my "classic" examples, it doesn't actually make my top 10. I agree that the UK-series was absolutely fantastic and The Desert of Desolation series was a game changer (not the least of which is because it introduced us to Tracy Hickman) and certainly among my favorites as well.

Cheers,
Tony


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
I'd rather build products my customers like and then try to branch out to new customers as a side quest than try to build products to catch mystical new customers and do things to appeal to the current customers as a side quest.

The thing that has fascinated me in reading through this discussion is the question in the back of my mind (and, I'm sure, in the back of several Paizo staff minds as well) about the tension between market-directed product development--building what customers like--and the creative imperative to set an agenda and go with it, critics (and customers often) be damned.

What this discussion has given me is an impression of where Paizo sits on that continuum.

James, does Paizo have a 'mission statement', or similar? If you do, can you share it?


cynarion wrote:
James, does Paizo have a 'mission statement', or similar? If you do, can you share it?

This question has come up often enough in the past few years (and been answered in turn) that I think it might be time to consider putting it up somewhere on the website. Not an actual Mission Statement, as I'm pretty sure (if I recall correctly) that Vic and co. aren't big fans of such labels, but maybe put something in the general FAQ.


The Block Knight wrote:
cynarion wrote:
James, does Paizo have a 'mission statement', or similar? If you do, can you share it?
This question has come up often enough in the past few years (and been answered in turn) that I think it might be time to consider putting it up somewhere on the website. Not an actual Mission Statement, as I'm pretty sure (if I recall correctly) that Vic and co. aren't big fans of such labels, but maybe put something in the general FAQ.

Lisa Stevens gave this response to this back in January... ;)

Here


Ah yes, that's the thread I was trying to recall. So has any progress been made on the "Politically Correct Conan" Twitter feed? I don't use Twitter but I might start if that was a thing.

And just a few posts above Lisa's is the post from Vic that I mentioned. He gives an excellent response as to why Mission Statements are mostly unnecessary. As someone who works in marketing, I agree. They're often almost entirely worthless, despite what first-year business textbooks will tell you. Then again, first-year business textbooks are also almost entirely worthless. Tangent over.


The Block Knight wrote:
I too have a close friend (my college roommate) who opened and now runs his own gaming store. This is his take on it, his exact words: "Putting a roof on it doesn't make the story inherently bad".

Wonderful sentence - and it hits the core-problem exactly. Now, taking the roof away : Does this roof open up more options to interact with the storyline, NPCs and setting or close them down ? Is the roof useful ?

Looking at - critics acclaimed - Korvosa in CotC. You are not supposed to leave the city, which by an extended definition makes it a "dungeon". Yet it remains an open story, to be handled in a multiplicity of ways. What it is not is a linear passage through each level to progress in the story "dungeon", but a series of interconnected episodes reinforcing each other, forming a greater whole.

Could the storyline of "Curse of the Lady's Light" possible have been told without being set inside a "Statue of Liberty" lookalike (a touch I found highly amusing) ?

Does the dungeon actually help and IMPROVE the story ? Or is it just easier to write, offering the characters less recourse to disengage and think matters through ? Dungeons can be fun - if they support the Adventure Paths plot like the Moebius Strip or the Dark Pyramid in Deserts... but not if they become the whole raison d'etre as in "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft" for 3.5

The Block Knight wrote:


Finally to address your last paragraph. Again, I agree that just chopping down monsters sucks. But it doesn't have to be the case for dungeons.

I have sadly found that to be a strong note in many of the dungeons throughout the first 60 Pathfinders. There are of course exceptions, but :

"Fortress of the Stone Giants"
"Sins of the Saviours"
"Skeletons of Scarwall"
"House of the Beast"
"Impossible Eye"
"the Varnhold Vanishing"
"City of Seven Spears"
"Vaults of Madness"
"Thousand Fangs Below"
"Sanctuum of the Serpent God"

for the first 7 APs, ...and I am actually ignoring "Bastards of Erebus" and "Second Darkness" here, because I am not familiar enough with them any more
When you name Skullport in Undermountain : we are both aware that that would a single area in a complex of... hmm several dozen levels ? A dungeon so big, WotC sold the map blank for the GM to fill in himself (at least in my 80ies 1E box) ?

Guess I set my eyes on Irisen and Baba Yaga in the winter... and keep my SigOth away from the lamenting^^

As for marketing : thanks, by brother in law is in marketing, or rather market research.

oh, and.. northern German. Just happen to have a significant number of Danish folk in the ancestral tree ! ODIN !

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The Block Knight wrote:

James, perhaps you can answer this and perhaps you can't. In fact, I know this question is better suited to certain other Paizo staffers. I also respect Paizo needs to keep 98% of their business operations (marketing, finances, and production) private. Having worked in operations management, project management, and now in marketing, I absolutely understand the reasons for that. So I will ask this in such a way as to ensure the answer can be as vague as possible:

When analyzing trends and performing forecasting, does Paizo attach "weights" to any of the analytic systems/tools in use or use linear regression? That may satisfy questions hovering around messageboard "pull" without actually quantifying anything. Every business uses tools, that's no secret. If that's still too specific for you, I'll completely understand. Cheers.

That is indeed a question better aimed at Erik and/or Lisa.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

4 people marked this as a favorite.
cynarion wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I'd rather build products my customers like and then try to branch out to new customers as a side quest than try to build products to catch mystical new customers and do things to appeal to the current customers as a side quest.

The thing that has fascinated me in reading through this discussion is the question in the back of my mind (and, I'm sure, in the back of several Paizo staff minds as well) about the tension between market-directed product development--building what customers like--and the creative imperative to set an agenda and go with it, critics (and customers often) be damned.

What this discussion has given me is an impression of where Paizo sits on that continuum.

James, does Paizo have a 'mission statement', or similar? If you do, can you share it?

No... "Mission Statement" is corporate technobabble.

We're here to make games that people like, and that includes us. I guess that counts as a mission statement? As distasteful as I find the idea that I just made up a mission statement...


James Jacobs wrote:
cynarion wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I'd rather build products my customers like and then try to branch out to new customers as a side quest than try to build products to catch mystical new customers and do things to appeal to the current customers as a side quest.

The thing that has fascinated me in reading through this discussion is the question in the back of my mind (and, I'm sure, in the back of several Paizo staff minds as well) about the tension between market-directed product development--building what customers like--and the creative imperative to set an agenda and go with it, critics (and customers often) be damned.

What this discussion has given me is an impression of where Paizo sits on that continuum.

James, does Paizo have a 'mission statement', or similar? If you do, can you share it?

No... "Mission Statement" is corporate technobabble.

We're here to make games that people like, and that includes us. I guess that counts as a mission statement? As distasteful as I find the idea that I just made up a mission statement...

i propose a new drinking game:a shot for every time you can trick james jacobs into saying mission statement in a single post;) i agree tho, mission statements are distasteful, why box yourself in?. keep up the good work

Liberty's Edge

A mission statement, done right, does not box you in. It provides focus, something that Paizo already has.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

So maybe Paizo's mission statement is: To continue to be awesome.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
graywulfe wrote:
A mission statement, done right, does not box you in. It provides focus, something that Paizo already has.

I'm with the werewolf. The vast majority of mission statements are awful, but done right, they're great.

Additional content:
Whether they're useful, however, is highly dependent on the environment. There are all sorts of consultants out there (yes, being a consultant is my day job) who will just impose whatever they have in their kitbag on every organisation they come across--the old adage 'when all you have is a hammer' applies in spades. They're the ones to avoid at all costs, but unfortunately they make up the bulk of consulting companies--they hit on a model that works once and they try to apply it everywhere.

In Paizo's case, I have no idea whether a mission statement (or similar) would be useful or not. I don't work there, so can't pass comment.

What I can say is that as a company grows larger and inevitably more differing individual viewpoints on what is 'good' are brought in, it becomes increasingly difficult for individuals to manage the behaviour of their staff and achieve something that's 'good' for the company. Mission statements--done right--and all the ancillary stuff that goes with them provide a support structure that gives those employees who manage others the time to do their own jobs, because they don't have to explain every nuance in detail over and over again.

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Hello! I personally love the dungeon, so this is one of my favorite AP. However, I recognize that not everyone likes a dungeon centric. Some folks like urban adventures, some like more story based adventures, etc. What I really like about Paizo is that they try different things in their AP's. I have not liked all of them, but there are plenty that I think are excellent. I trust James to continue to make good decisions.

With that said, I think the forums are the place for fans to give their opinions on what they like or don't like.

PS...I still would like to see Paizo do a true megadungeon.


James Jacobs wrote:


No... "Mission Statement" is corporate technobabble.

We're here to make games that people like, and that includes us. I guess that counts as a mission statement? As distasteful as I find the idea that I just made up a mission statement...

This right here is the kind of attitude that makes you a success. Keep this place run by gamers selling games rather than a megacorp pushing a "formula" and you'll do well.

Sovereign Court

James Jacobs wrote:
vikingson wrote:

Is it too much to ask to actually get someting for once without that "special sauce" ?

It might be, in all honesty, since the game is built so much to have dungeon-type combat.

So... if we some day DID do an Adventure Path without dungeons... does that mean we'd never print a single map that uses a grid? Would exploring a 7 encounter shipwreck on a coast count as a dungeon? What about a watchtower captured by orcs? or a ruined castle that's all open air?

Well the problem with dungeons is that they are often too long and take too much time and energy from the group.

I know my group would definitely buy an AP without dungeons ... in the traditional sense. Now, any of your alternatives would do.

Liberty's Edge

Stereofm wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
vikingson wrote:

Is it too much to ask to actually get someting for once without that "special sauce" ?

It might be, in all honesty, since the game is built so much to have dungeon-type combat.

So... if we some day DID do an Adventure Path without dungeons... does that mean we'd never print a single map that uses a grid? Would exploring a 7 encounter shipwreck on a coast count as a dungeon? What about a watchtower captured by orcs? or a ruined castle that's all open air?

Well the problem with dungeons is that they are often too long and take too much time and energy from the group.

I know my group would definitely buy an AP without dungeons ... in the traditional sense. Now, any of your alternatives would do.

My own personal beef with "dungeons" is that they often make me feel like my PC is just a character in a video RPG.

I want to be able to make my PC's personality grow. This happens through meaningful choices and roleplaying opportunities. Not through rolling to disarm a trap or hack monsters to bits (though these can provide nice moments of tension too when done right).

Liberty's Edge

The black raven wrote:
Stereofm wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
vikingson wrote:

Is it too much to ask to actually get someting for once without that "special sauce" ?

It might be, in all honesty, since the game is built so much to have dungeon-type combat.

So... if we some day DID do an Adventure Path without dungeons... does that mean we'd never print a single map that uses a grid? Would exploring a 7 encounter shipwreck on a coast count as a dungeon? What about a watchtower captured by orcs? or a ruined castle that's all open air?

Well the problem with dungeons is that they are often too long and take too much time and energy from the group.

I know my group would definitely buy an AP without dungeons ... in the traditional sense. Now, any of your alternatives would do.

My own personal beef with "dungeons" is that they often make me feel like my PC is just a character in a video RPG.

I want to be able to make my PC's personality grow. This happens through meaningful choices and roleplaying opportunities. Not through rolling to disarm a trap or hack monsters to bits (though these can provide nice moments of tension too when done right).

...chicken, allow me to introduce you to egg.


The black raven wrote:

My own personal beef with "dungeons" is that they often make me feel like my PC is just a character in a video RPG.

I want to be able to make my PC's personality grow. This happens through meaningful choices and roleplaying opportunities. Not through rolling to disarm a trap or hack monsters to bits (though these can provide nice moments of tension too when done right).

I don't know if you've followed any of the conversations for the first adventure of this AP, but I know that for that one you shouldn't run into this problem. There is plenty of opportunity for roleplay and character growth within the dungeon of that adventure! Thus, this AP may very well surprise and delight you!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The black raven wrote:

My own personal beef with "dungeons" is that they often make me feel like my PC is just a character in a video RPG.

I want to be able to make my PC's personality grow. This happens through meaningful choices and roleplaying opportunities. Not through rolling to disarm a trap or hack monsters to bits (though these can provide nice moments of tension too when done right).

Then I suspect you won't have any beefs at all with the adventures in Shattered Star. Because we're LOADING them with meaningful choices and roleplaying opportunities.

Whether or not any one GM keeps those opportunities in the adventure, of course, is not something we can control... ;-P

Silver Crusade

For serious. A GM running this AP as a string of encounters by the numbers is doing the first two adventures a great disservice. (and probalby the third too, just shipped)

I'm probably still going to be changing up some things to break out of the dungeoniness, but there is a lot of RP material and potential to work with if the GM(and players!) don't sell it short.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, that makes me take a good second look at the campaign. Given that one of my Jade Regent campaigns might end in a TPK soon. The characters built by my ( very good at RP ) players are a bit too excentric this time around. All of them. The synergy effect of a party is not really happening so far and there is some heavy stuff ahead for them. I could need a good new AP if that happens. ^^

Sczarni

From reading the first two books, I honestly think that the designs in this particular AP completely mitigate the standard problems that people have with dungeon crawling.

Basically, I'm saying that this is "dungeon crawling" done right. It's about exploring a strange place and interacting with strange things in original ways, not just about going into rooms and killing stuff.

So far, this AP has really taught me a lot about how to design a "dungeon" so that it can be fun for just about any playstyle.


Don't worry FallofCamelot, a robot, laser, mobilephone AP is coming up real soon. Away with this cool megadungeon, oldschool, redcap ap's make place for final fantasy goes starcraft and starwars.

Scarab Sages

I guess it was an old school crystal ball that gave you this insight?


FallofCamelot wrote:


My other issue rises from the fact that membership of the Pathfinder society is not optional. I find the society to be one of my least liked aspects of Golarion. Other games have done the world wide society of adventurers schtick before. In fact it's been done a lot, to the point that it's become something of a cliche frankly.

I dislike being part of a big faction and I really dislike being forced to be a member of a big faction. I want to win glory for myself, not because it's my job. I want to set my own motivation I don't want that to be set for...

If you really dislike the Pathfinder Society so much, reflavor the goal of the AP so that the Society isn't involved. You are just a group who wants to get rich, etc.

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