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I'm a heavy PFS player and it seems the community is still confused over the ruling regarding use of double firearms. I've searched for a thread with a dev response and cannot find one so please could someone provide a link or a dev respond? Is it two seperate attacks at a -4 penalty or a single attack with double damage just -4 penalty?
To me RAW implicates two seperate attacks since it would have been simple to virtually copy/paste the wording regarding manyshot and avoid confusion.
Single Attack with Double Damage
Pros: Expediates play
No chance of weapon instantly exploding
Cons: On misfire must clean two barrels
Two Seperate Attacks
Pros: Double the chances of rolling a critical
Stacks with the Deadshot deed
Cons: Double the chance of misfire
Weapon can instantly explode due to forced second attack
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barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate
action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack. If both
barrels are fired at once, they must both target the same
creature or object, and the gun becomes wildly inaccurate,
taking a –4 penalty on each shot. Each barrel of a doublebarreled
musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of
black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.
I can see how it can be read both ways...
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HO HAI DEESAGNER
I wouldn't say you were wrong because there were plenty of people split between both stances :) Thank you for finding this post it clarifies things nicely!
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Now to have even more fun :
Apparently, you can only fire once with a double-tap attack during a single round !
"It is one action, two attack rolls."
"I fire as a standard action, it is two attack rolls."
"If I fire as part of a full-attack action, it is one of those attacks, but two attack rolls. "
At least, only for the pistol :
"This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action."
"This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack."
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Since all the experts are here, I had another question:
Two Weapon Fighting says:If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. All the TWF feats proc off this initial mechanic.
Since most of the methods for dual wielding pistols involve cheese like weapon cords or Glove of Storing, doesn't that more or less completely invalidate TWF with firearms? at least as far as reloading between iterative attacks go? If you're dropping or storing your secondary weapon to reload, you're no longer "wielding a weapon in each hand" and eligible to TWF, correct?
So, by RAW, you could make your opening salvo with both weapons, and then holster one to keep a hand free to reload until you have an action free to reload both, but without a weapon in each hand you don't actually qualify to TWF, right?
Could a fighter with a scimitar in one hand and a dagger in the other
drop the dagger after his first swing with it, Quickdraw a longsword for the next attack, then drop the scimitar to finish his attack routine with a bastard sword? It would be cool, but is it rules legal? Because TWF with pistols is essentially the same thing.
The question just popped into my head while I was reading the thread Maxximilius posted.
If the weapon is not in hand when you state your attack action, you cannot make an attack with it.
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If the weapon is not in hand when you state your attack action, you cannot make an attack with it.
Which unfortunately doesn't really clarify the question about dropping or storing weapons mid-attack, finishing your attack routine, and then recovering them.
Also, what source does your statement comes from? It'd be nice to know for future reference :)
Really, the only gunslingers who can dual-wield two double pistols are Vanaras, Tieflings with the perhensile tail trait and level 2 alchemists. I think its kind of silly that some races are twice as good as being gunslingers, but there it is.
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Since all the experts are here,
*Readjusts nerd glasses*
I had another question:
Two Weapon Fighting says:If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. All the TWF feats proc off this initial mechanic.
I'll correct you right in the first sentence : you don't need to "have a second weapon in your off hand".
You could punch, use armor spikes, blade boots, a gauntlet... as an off-hand attack ; or even TWF with two greatswords, or even with bows, as long as you can get enough arms to wield these weapons in two hands.Since most of the methods for dual wielding pistols involve cheese like weapon cords or Glove of Storing,
That's not "cheese" when you are using the tools the system is providing you to make a concept viable. TWFing with firearms is a thing for advanced players ; whose system knowledge could put them far into what a newbie would consider cheese and powergaming.
doesn't that more or less completely invalidate TWF with firearms? at least as far as reloading between iterative attacks go?
If you're dropping or storing your secondary weapon to reload, you're no longer "wielding a weapon in each hand" and eligible to TWF, correct?
You need to be able to use two different weapons in the same round to TWF, it doesn't really matter if you have it in hand when doing your first attack. Wielding a DB pistol in off-hand allows you two shots before having to reload, and you may wield the same in your main hand. They are pretty cheap at higher levels so even without cords or gloves, you can quick draw and shoot with one as your off-hand attack.
Our higher level musket master always kept a DB musket in a glove of storing, and used his free actions to :- reload main musket (free)
- keep the musket in hand (free)
- make DB musket appear (free)
- trade weapons between hands (free)
- store musket (free)
- reload one DB barrel with Lightning reload (free)
- repeat all the previous steps until your musket is back in your hand, and your DB musket, back in your glove (free, free, free !)
And nope, it wasn't overpowered ! At level 15, I guess you can see a really high-dex character doing awesomely fast moves when another is beginning to create planes of existence.
So, by RAW, you could make your opening salvo with both weapons, and then holster one to keep a hand free to reload until you have an action free to reload both, but without a weapon in each hand you don't actually qualify to TWF, right?
There is no RAW way to holster a weapon outside of a glove of storing. About TWFing qualification, see previously.
Could a fighter with a scimitar in one hand and a dagger in the other drop the dagger after his first swing with it, Quickdraw a longsword for the next attack, then drop the scimitar to finish his attack routine with a bastard sword? It would be cool, but is it rules legal? Because TWF with pistols is essentially the same thing.
The question just popped into my head while I was reading the thread Maxximilius posted.
It is rules legal. Fun fact : you can even use both weapons in your round without activating TWFing, as long as you don't get additional attacks doing so.
Another way to use it is fight with a rapier, and draw/throw different daggers with your off-hand attacks.
Which unfortunately doesn't really clarify the question about dropping or storing weapons mid-attack, finishing your attack routine, and then recovering them.
Only free actions can normally take place during another action. Dropping a weapon is a free action, and as such you can drop an item mid-attack. Storing an item is not usually a free action, and cannot be done mid-attack.
Using Quick Draw to ready a weapon is a free action, but the GM is supposed to place reasonable limitation on the use of and number of free actions in a given round. There are several logistical issues with Quick Drawing multiple weapons as part of a single attack action. I imagine many GMs would not allow it.
Recovering an item after the attack is a separate action entirely. If you can take the required action, you can retrieve the item.
Also, what source does your statement comes from? It'd be nice to know for future reference :)
The Core Rulebook.
A swift action is a free action ...
Incorrect. A Swift Action is a unique type of action, entirely separate from Free Actions. They are not the same thing. Only a Free Action can take place as part of another action, not a Swift Action.
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@ Maxximilius
The quote I pulled about TWF was right out of the PRD... So it's them you corrected there, not me.
That was really the only thing I was digging at there, was how the qualification of having two weapons readied impacted the ability to TWF.
"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon."
Fun fact is that this quote is actually wrong in some cases. You don't wield your unarmed strikes, yet you can TWF with them because they are treated as manufactured weapons for some purposes ; you don't wield armor spikes or bladed boots in your hand yet you can use them because it is written as such in their description.
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A swift action is a free action ...Incorrect. A Swift Action is a unique type of action, entirely separate from Free Actions. They are not the same thing. Only a Free Action can take place as part of another action, not a Swift Action.
"You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. "
"You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action."
I'll give you being able to use a Swift Action during another action; I was reading a different area of the text. They are still not the same thing, however.
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@ Maxximilius
The quote I pulled about TWF was right out of the PRD... So it's them you corrected there, not me.
That was really the only thing I was digging at there, was how the qualification of having two weapons readied impacted the ability to TWF."If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon."
Fun fact is that this quote is actually wrong in some cases. You don't wield your unarmed strikes, yet you can TWF with them because they are treated as manufactured weapons for some purposes ; you don't wield armor spikes or bladed boots in your hand yet you can use them because it is written as such in their description.
Right, but aren't those specific exceptions to the general rule? Two Weapon Fighting notes in the next sentence that unarmed strikes are always considered light weapons for your off-hand, and Blade boots and armor spikes both have text blocks explicitly stating that they can be used as off-hand weapons. They wouldn't need that if they weren't exceptions to a general rule, that rule being "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon."
So if that weapon ceases to be in your off-hand, doesn't that disqualify you for the mechanic?|
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I'll give you being able to use a Swift Action during another action; I was reading a different area of the text. They are still not the same thing, however.
What difference does it make, except for the sake of argument ? The relevant part of swift actions was the ability to use weapon cords during a full-round attack. You can.
Right, but aren't those specific exceptions to the general rule? Two Weapon Fighting notes in the next sentence that unarmed strikes are always considered light weapons for your off-hand, and Blade boots and armor spikes both have text blocks explicitly stating that they can be used as off-hand weapons. They wouldn't need that if they weren't exceptions to a general rule, that rule being "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon."
So if that weapon ceases to be in your off-hand, doesn't that disqualify you for the mechanic?
It does, unless you have another weapon to attack. You obviously cannot gain additional off-hand attacks without having an off-hand weapon handy (I even asked the developers if you could TWFing by juggling as a free action with a single weapon between your hands, the answer was an unsurprising negative).
As long as you suck the penalties and use different weapons in each "hand" with your attacks, you can switch at any time with other weapons you can draw as a free action. It is hardly game-breaking, in any case.|
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@ Maxx
Just trying to clarify the rules, not as concerned with getting into whther or not it's game breaking. Interesting that the devs won't let you juggle a weapon, since that's more or less exactly what you're doing when you store/drop an offhand weapon to have your free hand to reload. The only real difference is the fact that you spent the cash to own a second weapon. Does anyone know if any devs or Paizo staff have weighed in on the mechanics of TWF with firearms and reloading?
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Remember the Weapon Swap feat from Alpha testing?
That was a way to two weapon fight with one weapon.
Here it is:
Weapon Swap (Combat)
With an acrobatic twist, you can swap your weapons from
one hand to another.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting,
Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: After making all of your attacks with your
primary hand, you can swap your primary weapon to
your off hand and make attacks using that weapon in
your off hand.
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Remember the Weapon Swap feat from Alpha testing?
That was a way to two weapon fight with one weapon.Here it is:
Weapon Swap (Combat)
With an acrobatic twist, you can swap your weapons from
one hand to another.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting,
Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: After making all of your attacks with your
primary hand, you can swap your primary weapon to
your off hand and make attacks using that weapon in
your off hand.
Wow, brings me back indeed.
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Why does dual-wielding always weeds its way into gunslinger threads lol? There are numerous threads on the topic and it is legal. However cheese aside, it is also legal for the GM to disallow because weapon cords state they "may interfere with finer actions". This is why I would never play one in a PFS game because the GM has every right to say reloading is a finer action.
I was goofing around with double weapons (one of my players uses them) and we have been doing it as one roll, two attacks. I wonder, would this action conflict with using vital strike? That might make for some interesting effects... I'm thinking vital strike musket master!