Spellbinder and Arcane School

[Novack]

Since this is my first post on these messageboards, I think that some greeting may be in place, so "Hello" :).

I would like to ask your opinion about interference between Arcane School and Spellbinder archetype (presented in Advanced Race Guide - ARG).

Firstly, I'm curious how the Spell Bond works with the "specialist slot" restrictions (e.g. Can diviner swap his True Strike prepared in specialist slot for bonded Magic Missile?).

Secondly, I wonder if you can bond with a spell from an opposition school and be able to circumvent a "two-slot" requirement by exchanging it with your other memorizations (e.g. with spell in your specialist spell slot to spice things up :P).

Finally, I would like to know if you can exchange spells for metamagiced versions of bonded spells (e.g. swap True Seeing for Empowered Maximized Magic Missile :)).

Looking forward to see your answers.

Cheers,
Novack.

[Forgottenprince]

Dotted for interest to see how others rule but my gut instinct is:

1) No because that slot is only available for school spells
2) No because that's circumventing a balancing feature of the specialist
3) Probably not because its not called out, but I'd allow it in my game.

[HaraldKlak]

First of all, welcome to the boards!

In answer to your questions, I agree with Forgottenprince.

Personally, I would strongly advise against this archetype. Spending a full round action just to change the spell you got prepared, afterwards having to spend another action to cast it, is just too slow to be useful for any spell. Taking the arcane bonded item instead, will let you spontaneously cast any spell you got in your spell book, once per day.
Instead of the archetype, two options comes to mind:
1) Preferred spell feat: Allows you to truly convert spells spontanously to a single spell. You can do the same as the archetype, just faster, and metamagics are definately allowed. Drawbacks: Limited to a single spell when the feat is chosen. Requires Heighten Spell feat. Availiable at lvl 5
2) Fast Study discovery: While you can't cast spontanously, you lower you preparation time to 1 minute. Great for the dungeon crawling wizard, who like to save some of his spell slots until he know what he need. The only limit to spell choices is your spell book. Drawbacks: Takes longer time than the archetype (but IMO the 2 rounds-to-cast-a-spell is rarely valid in combat anyway). Cost 1 feat or bonus feat. Abailiable at lvl 5.

On top of this, the archetype is so badly written, that a lot of questions are bound to come up.

[Novack]

HaraldKlak said wrote:

On top of this, the archetype is so badly written, that a lot of questions are bound to come up.

I can certainly agree, that description of this archetype is quite vague.

Let's have a look:

Arcane School:

Each arcane school gives the wizard a number of school powers. In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a wizard can prepare a spell from his specialty school in that slot. This spell must be in the wizard's spellbook. A wizard can select a spell modified by a metamagic feat to prepare in his school slot, but it uses up a higher-level spell slot. Wizards with the universalist school do not receive a school slot.

Spell Bond:

At 1st level, a spellbinder selects any one spell that he knows as a bonded spell. As a full-round action, the spellbinder may replace a spell of the same or higher level as his bonded spell with his bonded spell. For example, a spellbinder who selects magic missile as his bonded spell could spend a full-round action to exchange any 1st-level or higher spell that he has prepared with magic missile. At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a spellbinder may select another spell he knows and add it to his list of bonded spells, to a maximum of nine bonded spells at 17th level.

*emphasis mine

After looking at this text for some time, I would say that as far as the rules go, a Diviner with Evocation as his opposition school can choose Magic Missile as his bonded spell, since there is no restriction regarding school of the bonded spell (present for example in bonded object description).

What's more, from the description of Arcane School I understand that Diviner is only restricted to preparing Divination spell in the specialist slot (e.g. True Strike). Once the spell is prepared, it's equivalent to any other spell available to Wizard. As he can choose a spell to be replaced with his bonded spell, he chooses aforementioned True Strike to swap with his bonded Magic Missile.

I would also assume that similar mechanic would be valid for swapping specialist spells for spontaneous casting via Preferred Spell and Greater Spell Specialization, even if they are from different school than the original spell.

As for my third question I would probably have to agree with Forgottenprince. If something's not explicitly pointed out, it should be assumed not possible.

So, to sum up, if I read the archetype correctly, for the price of Arcane Bond (certainly high price to pay), you can partly circumvent your specialist restrictions. You create your quasi-domain, with spells from which you can fill even your specialist slots (swapping right after preparation). What's more, you can cherry-pick some spells from you opposition schools and include them in this quasi-domain. It shifts the focus of the archetype from "2-rounds for casting right spell" function, more to "screw the weak Diviner spell list and finally fully embrace Foresight Wizard" option :).

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's true as far as the RAW goes. I only wonder if that was designer's intent or is it some kind of overlook.

[Forgottenprince]

I had hoped that you would have received more feedback from others on this... Oh well.

I acknowledge your point on the "prepared" v. "exchange" terminology. I think this is an instance of RAW v RAI as I don't think the designers intended this to allow the situation you described above (no matter how much fun it would be!), hence my gut reactions above.

A further argument to support more flexibility on issue 3) is examining the clerics ability to spontaneously cast metamagiced versions of cure/inflict spells using higher level slots. Again, not expressly called out in spellbond but it is more internally consistent I believe.

[Jacob Saltband]

dot

[Drejk]

Hello.

The quotes you have provided us do not override the specialist restriction. Being prepared is (a) the process during which wizard prepares his allotment of spells and (b) the state of spell "carried" by wizard before casting. After the swapping the new spell remains prepared in the slot. Attempt to swap spell in specialist slot for a non-specialist spell would violate the specialist slot limitation that allows it only hold specialist spells prepared.

[Buri]

You still only get so many slots. The nature of slots do not change. Spellbinder just let's you change the spells in a slot as a full-round action. The rules about oppositions schools and slots haven't changed nor has anything else really. You just get an additional option for how to manage your spell slot resource.

[Wiggz]

HaraldKlak wrote:

First of all, welcome to the boards!

In answer to your questions, I agree with Forgottenprince.

Personally, I would strongly advise against this archetype. Spending a full round action just to change the spell you got prepared, afterwards having to spend another action to cast it, is just too slow to be useful for any spell. Taking the arcane bonded item instead, will let you spontaneously cast any spell you got in your spell book, once per day.

I disagree with this, but then I probably use the Spellbinder a little differently - for the Spellbinder's bonded spells, I choose options that I know I'm eventually going to need, but don't want to bother wasting slots on. Generally those are spells I'm not going to need in combat and as such will have plenty of time available to 'make the switch'.

I run an Elven Void Mage & Spellbinder and these are his spell bond choices:

1st - Charm Person
3rd - Detect Thoughts
5th - Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
7th - Protection vs. Energy, Communal
9th - Teleport
11th - True Seeing or Contingency (if allowed)
13th - Magnificent Mansion or Limited Wish (if allowed)
15th - Prying Eyes, Greater
17th - Time Stop or Wish (if allowed)

One house rule we've decided to adopt however, is allowing your 'bonded spell' to serve in place of the requirement that you prepare a spell of your school with your bonus spell. I.E. if you are a Divination specialist and you select True Strike as your permanent bonded spell, you are free to use your bonus spell slot on something other than a divination spell.

[Dr Grecko]

Novack wrote:

Since this is my first post on these messageboards, I think that some greeting may be in place, so "Hello" :).

I would like to ask your opinion about interference between Arcane School and Spellbinder archetype (presented in Advanced Race Guide - ARG).

Firstly, I'm curious how the Spell Bond works with the "specialist slot" restrictions (e.g. Can diviner swap his True Strike prepared in specialist slot for bonded Magic Missile?).

Secondly, I wonder if you can bond with a spell from an opposition school and be able to circumvent a "two-slot" requirement by exchanging it with your other memorizations (e.g. with spell in your specialist spell slot to spice things up :P).

Finally, I would like to know if you can exchange spells for metamagiced versions of bonded spells (e.g. swap True Seeing for Empowered Maximized Magic Missile :)).

Looking forward to see your answers.

Cheers,
Novack.

1) Debatable.. I can see others arguments that a school slot is a school slot, but Spellbinder mechanics specifically say "Any" spell can be swapped for a bonded spell. Plus, I would argue that a bonded spell is even more focused than a school spell, and that to me justifies it being swap-able.

2) Again, Debatable.. It is your opposed school after all, but there is nothing in spellbinder prohibiting you from taking it as a bonded option. It could be argued that to use it you would need to swap two spells out, but again I see a bonded spell as a more focused than a school spell.

3) Also Debatable.. This is a question of Fluff vs Crunch. Or RAI vs RAW to me. The short description of the spellbinder contains this text:

A spellbinder is an elven wizard who forges an arcane bond between himself and one or more wizard spells. These spells become so well understood by the spellbinder that he can prepare them in spell slots that already have other spells prepared in them.

However, the mechanics of spellbinder uses the word "Exchange" instead of "Prepare". Now in seeing that fluff text, I read the RAI as you are preparing that spell in that slot. If you are preparing the spell, then you should be able to add metamagic and this is how we play it.

I vote Yes to all 3 questions. After all, Spellbinder is in general a worse option than Arcane Bond, so why hamstring it further.

*Edit - While I say yes to all three... The third is the only one I'm confident is a yes per RAI.

[gniht]

Anyone else want to pipe on this? I'm currently using it on my diviner to help with the abysmal spell selection of the divination school.

I do so because (and some of these points were noted by others):

1. Technically changing spells with the spellbinder archetype doesn't involve preparation, it just swaps the spell. (this is obviously a technicality that could allow it, not a justification)

2. The arcane bond is actually a pretty useful and potent ability and the difference in power level doesn't seem out of line. (personal opinion)

3. I feel the selection in divination falls behind other schools... and while the school powers are great, they're not clearly better than some other schools. (e.g. admixture or teleportation), while the spell selection frankly just sucks.

So yeah, I think it's justifiable, even appropriate... but probably was not intended to be used in this manner.

*slight edit on 2.