Two Handed Tank help...

[Sakrileg]

I personally like tanking, but I don't like sword and board style. I really like the concept and idea of two handed tanking.

So I am currently thinking of this build (levels 1-5)
Lv1. Fighter - Mobile fighter archetype
Racial Feat: Dodge
Lv1. Feat: Combat Expertise
Fighter Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus (greatsword or bastard sword)

Lv2. Fighter - Mobile fighter archetype
Fighter Bonus Feat: Shield of Swings
Class Feature: Agility

Lv3. Fighter - Mobile fighter archetype
Lv3. Feat: Mobility
Class Feature: Armor training

Lv4: Fighter - Mobile fighter archetype
+1 to ability score
Fighter Bonus Feat:Toughness

Lv5. Fighter - Mobile fighter archetype
Lv5. Feat: Defensive Weapon Training
Class Feature: Rapid Attack

What is your advice my fellow Pathfinders? Weapons? Armor? Multiclassing?

[Lightbulb]

Right. Tanking.

By this I assume you mean using defensive abilities to take a lot of hits from your enemies to prevent them attacking the more vulnerable members of your party?

The main question is how do you stop the (intelligent) enemies running past you and attacking the casters?

In MMO terms you need something to manage the aggro. Fighters in D&D typically do a lot of damage. They control enemies by killing them.

If you want to take on a battlefield control role as a fighter you need do do more than take abilities which allow you to 'tank' hits. Especially ones which halve your damage!

I am sure others are better placed to give you builds, there have been a lot posted on here over time so you could search some out yourself.

----

Mobile fighter seems odd choice for a 'tank'. Move and full attack at mid levels is decent but before then you always want to be moving - meaning one attack a turn.

Fighters want to be making full attacks as much as possible to maximise damage.

Shield of Swings seems terrible to me, drink a potion of Shield.

The build seems more like a lightly armoured fighter who darts in and out of combat, its not screaming 'tank' to me.

[Gignere]

The closest thing to tanking in PF for a fighter or melee in general is to use a reach weapon and use combat maneuvers. This way you can reposition the enemies (bullrush), stop the mobs from going to the clothies (trip, overrun, grapple), and otherwise debuff the mob if they are on top of the clothies (dirty tricks, disarm).

The best fighter archetype for this is probably the Lore Warden for two reasons. They get a bonus to all combat maneuvers and second they can only wear light armor so they are always a fairly attractive target for the enemy but they do have the hps to take a few hits.

[james maissen]

Sakrileg wrote:

I personally like tanking, but I don't like sword and board style. I really like the concept and idea of two handed tanking.

Work on dealing enough damage that they fear your AOOs.

Deal enough damage that YOU are the clear and present danger, not some pathetic wizard standing in the back of the party.

You don't need 'aggro' to make monsters attack you, you simply need to be aggressive and scary.

Go for an offensive build. Consider a level of living monolith if you want the swift action enlarges, but it's not without price.

-James

[ossian666]

Step 1: Get a Heavy Shield
Step 2: Use heavy Shield with 2 hands
Step 3: Put Shield Spike and Bashing on Shield for 2d6 damage
Step 4: Win

[Shalmdi]

James has the right of it. Make them fear your AoO, but do not fear theirs. This may be crazier than it seems (I have never personally tried a tank-fighter), but put Dex over Con as your secondary attribute. Then, take Combat Reflexes and Dodge / Mobility. This should allow you to move between enemies and casters without fear of AoO.

Forget Combat Expertise, Shield of Swings, and Defensive Weapon Training. You will take more hits, but hopefully, you will have the HP to support this with Toughness and putting your Favored bonus in HP. Forget Improved Disarm or Trip as they require Combat Expertise. Unless you are planning to use a Polearm as Gignere suggested then maybe it is worth taking Combat Expertise. Get Power Attack and Improved/Greater Bull-rush. Improved Sunder also works if you think you can get your hands on an Adamantine weapon in the future, but consider that a backup plan.

If you want to be mobile, trade out a feat for Furious Focus so you can make Power Attacks with that one standard without penalty. Look into the Vital Strike Tree(when you qualify) and/or Cleave as well.

I would lose the Mobile Fighter. The bonus to movement effects is nice, but not really better than Bravery. Leaping Attack is actually worse than Weapon Training as you probably intend to focus on one weapon anyway. Rapid Attack will hurt your accuracy so much that I would rather make one Vital Strike with Power Attack.

If the base fighter doesn't work for you (it is too often overlooked), go for Two-handed Fighter. You will lose the Armor Training's improved move. but your damage will really stack. No-one will focus on your allies because you are just too darn scary. Also, if you want to protect someone, make sure you stay near enough to them that you can interpose with 20ft of movement. Not too hard to do.

That is my 2 cents worth. I am sure there are ways to improve it, but I would still call this a decent tank fighter.

[ossian666]

Shalmdi wrote:

James has the right of it. Make them fear your AoO, but do not fear theirs. This may be crazier than it seems (I have never personally tried a tank-fighter), but put Dex over Con as your secondary attribute. Then, take Combat Reflexes and Dodge / Mobility. This should allow you to move between enemies and casters without fear of AoO.

Forget Combat Expertise, Shield of Swings, and Defensive Weapon Training. You will take more hits, but hopefully, you will have the HP to support this with Toughness and putting your Favored bonus in HP. Forget Improved Disarm or Trip as they require Combat Expertise. Unless you are planning to use a Polearm as Gignere suggested then maybe it is worth taking Combat Expertise. Get Power Attack and Improved/Greater Bull-rush. Improved Sunder also works if you think you can get your hands on an Adamtine weapon in the future, but consider that a backup plan.

If you want to be mobile, trade out a feat for Furious Focus so you can make Power Attacks with that one standard without penalty. Look into the Vital Strike Tree(when you qualify) and/or Cleave as well.

I would lose the Mobile Fighter. The bonus to movement effects is nice, but not really better than Bravery. Leaping Attack is actually worse than Weapon Training as you probably intend to focus on one weapon anyway. Rapid Attack will hurt your accuracy so much that I would rather make one Vital Strike with Power Attack.

If the base fighter doesn't work for you (it is too often overlooked), go for Two-handed Fighter. You will lose the Armor Training's improved move. but your damage will really stack. No-one will focus on your allies because you are just too darn scary. Also, if you want to protect someone, make sure you stay near enough to them that you can interpose with 20ft of movement. Not too hard to do.

That is my 2 cents worth. I am sure there are ways to improve it, but I would still call this a decent tank fighter.

Eh I'd leave out Cleave...of the few times I did take it I regretted it because it does not come into play enough for me to justify it over another feat...like Iron Will.

I still stand by my Shield Fighter...its just as good as a normal 2 hander, you get the AC from the shield if you take the Shield Feats, and you get the cool feats like Shield Slam and the other one that gives you a free trip attempt when you power attack. Every person you hit with power attack is gonna get a trip and/or bull rush attempt against them...talk about battlefield control!

[Mergy]

You need Power Attack for Shield Of Swings. You'll also want it so your damage isn't awful.

I agree with these guys though: Reach weapon is a Good Thing for you. Since you seen to be grabbing Mobility anyway, you had might as well make use of Whirlwind Attack + Lunge + reach.

Edit: You can't take Toughness as a fighter bonus feat.

[Sakrileg]

Sakrileg wrote:

I personally like tanking, but I don't like sword and board style. I really like the concept and idea of two handed tanking.

So I am currently thinking of this build (levels 1-5)
Lv1. Fighter - Mobile fighter archetype
Racial Feat: Dodge
Lv1. Feat: Combat Expertise
Fighter Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus (greatsword or bastard sword)

Lv2. Fighter - Mobile fighter archetype
Fighter Bonus Feat: Shield of Swings
Class Feature: Agility

Lv3. Fighter - Mobile fighter archetype
Lv3. Feat: Mobility
Class Feature: Armor training

Lv4: Fighter - Mobile fighter archetype
+1 to ability score
Fighter Bonus Feat:Toughness

Lv5. Fighter - Mobile fighter archetype
Lv5. Feat: Defensive Weapon Training
Class Feature: Rapid Attack

What is your advice my fellow Pathfinders? Weapons? Armor? Multiclassing?

Here is the edited version, I am definitely gonna go for doing a good amount of damage, and having the option to boost my AC when I need too.

Probably gonna use a greatsword or bastard sword(cant decided which), goes with the character background, which i did purposely leave out earlier.

So I am currently thinking of this build (levels 1-5)
Lv1. Fighter -
Racial Feat: Dodge
Lv1. Feat: Combat Expertise
Fighter Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus (greatsword or large bastard sword)

Lv2. Fighter - Two-Handed Fighter
Fighter Bonus Feat: Power Attack
Class Feature: Shattering Strike

Lv3. Fighter - Two-Handed Fighter
Lv3. Feat: Toughness
Class Feature: Overhand Chop

Lv4: Fighter - Two-Handed Fighter
+1 to ability score
Fighter Bonus Feat: Weapon Specialization (greatsword or large bastard sword)

Lv5. Fighter - Two-Handed Fighter
Lv5. Feat: Mobility
Class Feature: Weapon Training

I will also keep shield of swings on the back burner, and just pick it up if I need it.

[Mergy]

How are you using a large-sized bastard sword without Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword? How are you taking Weapon Focus in a weapon you are not proficient with?

How do you plan to cope with the large penalties to attack you're likely to provoke from utilizing Combat Expertise and Power Attack in tandem?

[Sakrileg]

Mergy wrote:

How are you using a large-sized bastard sword without Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword? How are you taking Weapon Focus in a weapon you are not proficient with?

How do you plan to cope with the large penalties to attack you're likely to provoke from utilizing Combat Expertise and Power Attack in tandem?

How are you using a large-sized bastard sword without Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword? True, I do need it to wield a large bastard sword. So I need to fit that feat in there if I use a large one.

How are you taking Weapon Focus in a weapon you are not proficient with? If I remember correctly, you only need the feat to use a bastard sword one handed. So if I was to go the large bastard sword route I would need to get the feat before weapon focus.

How do you plan to cope with the large penalties to attack you're likely to provoke from utilizing Combat Expertise and Power Attack in tandem?I would probably not use them at the same time, use one or the other. Also if I picked up shield of swings I wouldn't use it with all my other feats. Would try and use one in prep for what i feel is needed.

[Mergy]

Fair enough. With the other attack penalties, I would suggest the greatsword (or possibly a reach weapon). Defender of the Society is a neat little trait that will give you +1 AC when wearing medium it heavy armour; alternatively, the Threatening Defender trait would remove the first penalty from Combat Expertise.

Of course, you're losing Armour Training by going with that archetype.

I don't agree with Toughness for this build. You're a d10 class, and feats are tight. I would suggest:

1 Dodge, Power Attack, Furious Focus
2 Combat Expertise
3 Mobility
4 Spring Attack
5 Whirlwind Attack
6 Lunge
7 Weapon Focus
8 Weapon Specialization

If you want to save a feat, a lore warden gets Combat Expertise as a bonus feat at level 2.

[Kydeem de'Morcaine]

The other thing I have seen mentioned for a meat shield tank is paladin or at least some paladin levels.

You have smite to increase your damage so things can't ignore you.

You have good saves ( a faild hold person save and your meat shield isn't ).

Swift action heals to get rid of the damage you do take.

I think the best build I read combined lore warden 4 or 6 (don't remember which) and the rest paladin.

Edit My search-fu is not finding these threads.