Let's say I'm rolling a half-orc barbarian with an int dump stat. Does he know of Freedom of Movement or Bear's Ferocity or Enlarge Person to ask for it by name? If not, why? If so, how? If he could but may not , what kind of check would it need and how high?
Generally, it's all GM's interpretation. Does his background imply that he's worked with casters before? Does his party talk about spells every so often? It's all relative to what is realistic for each given situation. Honestly, I've always felt that a good GM is one who can create accurate and fair circumstance bonuses up on the fly.
I'd still like to add to the discussion about nicknames. It is fairly unrealistic that the world would not have a shared name of a spell.
In fact, even in real world medieval times, please name one example of an item that couldn't be sold because a vendor would not know what to call it? Language itself, at its very core, it meant to combat that problem from ever happening. If you speak the same language, it is extremely likely that there is a name for a product.
Now in Pathfinder it is even easier than the real world medieval times. Communication is not hindered the same way. We have people who can Teleport and travel to other planes. We are not even stuck behind an isolation issue, and even in the real world, isolation quickly dissolves as a problem the moment somebody wants to buy something.
The only word I can think of in the history of English that creates such ambiguity is football. Look the word up and look at the history of the sports. Soccer has no additional rights to claim the word than anything else except that Europe said "Nuh uh! This game is football!" and we all randomly believed them. Soccer is not the oldest sport with the name, and even the term "soccer" comes from "Association Football" which is it's official game title.
Casting spells is like cooking a meal.
You need some ingredients (verbal, somantiv, material, focus for a spell), mix them together and get a result. You can call the result Xinwushu, Bumblebee or summon monster 7.
If you know the ingredients you can maybe predict the result if you have some knowledge about the ingredients winteraction. Cooking a mixture of flour, eggs, sugar and milk can be a pancake or only a mixture of flour, eggs, etc...
The non-expert says it is a hot explosion that burns everything. (never seen a fireball , no regarding knowledge etc.)
The adventurer says it is a ball of fire that hurts everything in a large area. (no regarding knowledge skill but has seen a fireball)
The expert says it is an arcane spell, cast by an advanced scholor of magic which burns everything in a 30f radius. (regaring knowledge skill and kann cast the spell).
It's not a matter of common nicknames, it's a matter of verisimilitude. Let's say I'm rolling a half-orc barbarian with an int dump stat. Does he know of Freedom of Movement or Bear's Ferocity or Enlarge Person to ask for it by name? If not, why? If so, how? If he could but may not , what kind of check would it need and how high?
Why does it matter?
It's not a matter of common nicknames, it's a matter of verisimilitude. Let's say I'm rolling a half-orc barbarian with an int dump stat. Does he know of Freedom of Movement or Bear's Ferocity or Enlarge Person to ask for it by name? If not, why? If so, how? If he could but may not , what kind of check would it need and how high?Why does it matter?
RP. You know, the half of the game that isn't hitting things with axes.
RP. You know, the half of the game that isn't hitting things with axes.It's not a matter of common nicknames, it's a matter of verisimilitude. Let's say I'm rolling a half-orc barbarian with an int dump stat. Does he know of Freedom of Movement or Bear's Ferocity or Enlarge Person to ask for it by name? If not, why? If so, how? If he could but may not , what kind of check would it need and how high?Why does it matter?
Are you kidding me? You roleplay with the names of spells? Why waste your time with that when you could roleplay something more worthwhile?
Look, intelligent beings name things. It's what they do. It's how they begin to control them. To think that spells would not have names is to completely go against everything we know about human behavior. Sure you can say that not all races are human, but humans are a big part of the world, usually the biggest part, and even so it's not a stretch to say that humans name things BECAUSE they are intelligent.
So spells in the game would have names that people would know. "Look, fireball!". Or "Hey, hit me with that bull's strength wouldja?"
How else do you expect people to communicate?
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I think Shah is just looking for MORE roleplaying possibilities. He is not necessarily advocating that everyone adopt this in their games. It must be something that fits in with his players expectations of a session he runs. I personally like the idea but wouldn't get bogged down in it. Maybe its a couple of minutes in a shop where there's a slight misunderstanding in what a customer wants because of different names and it generates amemorable moment where one of his PCs clears up the misunderstanding. Definitely worth it, if that's the kind of thing expected at the table.
A wizard observes a sorcerer casting fireball and says, "Aha. That's Zazzerpan's Conflagratory Sphere."
What do sorcerers call their spells?
Does a sorcerer feel new power emerging in her soul and find it's called 'Zazzerpan's Conflagratory Sphere'? Who is this Zazzerpan anyway and how did his conflagratory sphere end up part of her mystical soul?
It's not even a matter of misunderstanding, really. It's a matter of "how common knowledge are specific spells and their effects?" People name things, true. Everyone has bones. Name seventy of them. Everyone has seen a car. Name fifty of them. Everyone has heard of sports. Could you match 50 names with 50 faces? Everyone knows about stars. Name twenty. Don't actually do that. Though if you try it, don't use google. Just a general knowledge roll. My point is, sure, the spells may be common knowledge, but common knowledge tends to be just that- Very common.
And I didn't mean RP options as in "Whizbang's Derpmaker? I call it Enervation!" I mean RP options as in, a character has no concept of what he wants or needs. If you're not good with vehicles, imagine going to an auto dealership. You have to more or less take them on their word that what you are looking at is a somewhat decent deal, that the things included and the parts are the kind you want. You can do some research, sure, but there is still a lot you don't know going in. That's the kind of RP I'm talking about.
Your dumb barbarian hulks into the store and essentially has to trust the shopkeep for a good deal, or bring along a rogue with apraise and identify, or a caster friend who actually knows this stuff. Your barbarian can hardly read, let alone understand hundreds of spell effects, let alone name them by description, let alone understand their material components and the value of the time and labor expenses in pathfinder economy. This LACK of knowledge could lead to ignoble store owners taking advantage of an unknowing customer, as happens in real life.
Edit- It would promote more RP in shopping, either by promoting characters to discuss the items they would like, by involving members of the party to explain stuff and feel useful, or setting up side quests in the event that they get swindled and want to take action. It would also make shopkeeps seem more real and add immersion. Maybe groups already do this, but my experience has pretty much been "What do you want? Potions of X? X gold. Later."
A wizard observes a sorcerer casting fireball and says, "Aha. That's Zazzerpan's Conflagratory Sphere."
What do sorcerers call their spells?
"Frying tonight ye dastards!"
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SKR on this discussion last time something similar came up...
JJ has a post above it too.
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All my magic users use custom spell names.
My wizard's don't know fireball, they know "thermobarric disruption".
To me, half the fun of being a caster is renaming your spells and reflavouring them.
I do it with most classes. My monk doesn't know "stunning fist" he knows "crashing wave technique".
So it would be impossible for another person to know exactly what I call a spell, but they could recognize the mechanics of a spell.
He may not know that I just casted "thermobarric disruption", but he does know I threw an exploding ball of magic fire.
Again, people name things. Sure someone might have their own pet name for "fireball" but they would be laughed out of the bar if someone said "hey, you do magic, can you cast that fireball spell?" And they replied "Hmph... I don't cast 'fireball', I cast 'thermobarric disruption' instead."
Common spells would quickly acquire common names. Uncommon spells might have names that are somewhat regional. But they would still be very consistent. Rare spells might have less common names, but among the cognoscenti they would also have known names.
Suggesting that spells would not have common names because individuals would use their own names would be like saying people had their own names for animals. "Duck? You call that a duck? Well, I call that a twitter-pated knob-gobbler."
I'm just saying it's more likely that they'd know the spell casts a ball of fire than the specific name for it.
Often that name would be basic, like fireball, but would "melf's acid arrow" always be known as melf's acid arrow? No, if it had a common name it would likely just be called "Acid arrow" (Which I realize is what it's called in PF, but it was an example).
As in the title, do characters know the names of spells? This question has many facets- Spellcasters likely know the names of most spells, I would assume- It is their job to study them. But do they know ALL spells? What if it is a spell they have never seen, could they have heard of it? For example, let's say a wizard has never seen or read up on Searing Ray. Would he be able to ask for a scroll or wand of it by name, or would he have to beat around the bush and ask for a wand "that fires hot beams"?
Now, what about a dumb fighty type? One could assume that even an idiot could correctly identify the big ball of fire as a "fireball", but things get complex when it gets into the metaphysical spells, like ones that add luck bonuses or buffs like freedom of movement. To anyone not detecting magic, freedom of movement would just look like someone extremely agile or lucky. So could a dumb beefer really be expected to be able to know the spell to ask for it by name?
Then again, in a society in which magic is known, it might be relatively common knowledge. Could it be like cars? Mages would be mechanics, in this analagy, knowing how to fix and build cars. Someone like me would be a fighter type, since my knowledge is "VAN TRUCK OR CAR", and of course, there are enthusiasts who know the parts and makes of cars, but don't have hands on experience building them, so maybe knowledge arcana.
Knowledge Arcana might fit this bill, really, but this isn't exactly a "secrets of magic" or a "reactionary" type deal, which is what arcana seems to be. This isn't so much "Identify a spell as it is/after it has been cast" but "how many names and spell descriptions could a given character be expected to know as common knowledge in the first place".
You anwer this is this rule question or Role play question?
If it a rule question then Spell Craft DC 15 pluss level of the spell.
To ID a spell. That it.
If it role play question you never know it will vary form GM/DM and or player.
I'm just saying it's more likely that they'd know the spell casts a ball of fire than the specific name for it.
Pretty much.
You anwer this is this rule question or Role play question?If it a rule question then Spell Craft DC 15 pluss level of the spell.
To ID a spell. That it.So it's just as hard to know a spell exists as it is to identify it while it's being cast?
Seems like it should be much easier.
Part of ID a spell is knowing what it called. It like 2x3=6 or say 3x2=6 it the same idea.
Again what is the point of this thread "Are GM up set that fighters are call out spells that they want IC? Do these fighter have spell craft?"
If they dont tell them to shut up and move on.
The fighter can do that thing that helps me, or do that thing that hurts them. But any thing more than that is metagaming. And if you metagame in my game it NO EXP/ NO loot
"Part of, perhaps. Not the same thing. Telling from a few quick gestures and a couple of words what spell is being cast before it goes off is entirely different than knowing that a spell exists or even what it's called. Does a wizard who fails a spellcheck watching an enemy cast Improved Invisibility not know that there is such a spell, even if he has it himself?"
If they failed that means they fail to remember that 2 x a is 6. they did reson that a = 3
"As for the relevance, does a fighter (or more likely a rogue) with UMD need spellcraft to be able to ask a shopkeeper for spells in any but the most generic terms? "
Hence why fighter and/ or rouges need to put ranks in spell craft.
Same story but real world I need to get a some type chip for my car brain box what every hell that is ( but it cost like $300). But I have no Idea what it is. I really me only have one rank in Craft Automobiles. So I know real basic this is oil, this is gas, this is the tires, that about it.
"Why can't fighters call out for spells they want IC? Certainly spells they've seen the party casters use before or had cast on them. And I'd assume they talk about tactics and possible uses of spells around the campfire. Wouldn't you want to know what the people you're fighting with can do?"
Again... If they do and they learned some thing by that talk then show that by putting a rank in spell craft.
In school you sat in room with at lest 20 kids you all herd say stuff form teacher took the same test did you all get the same grade? No.
Some of folks learned the material. Some did not.
Spoiler
I am run Skull and Shackles AP right know book 1. If you have 1 rank in Profession Sailor you do not need to make sea sickness roll you are immune.
Or say idea if you fall Dex check to reduce the damage by 1d6 and land prone. But if you have a rank in acrobatics you can make the same check using your acrobatics but if you make you automatically land on your feet.
Have rank in some stuff show that some basic knowedgle/skill in said field. Or that you do not.
Part of, perhaps. Not the same thing. Telling from a few quick gestures and a couple of words what spell is being cast before it goes off is entirely different than knowing that a spell exists or even what it's called. Does a wizard who fails a spellcheck watching an enemy cast Improved Invisibility not know that there is such a spell, even if he has it himself?
Look at modern industrial chemistry for your answers to that. There are many different ways of getting to the same end result from different ingredients. When you try and identify a spell as it is being cast you are getting a look at some of the ingredients and the start of the process; if you are quick, or if you have the same spell and cast it in the same way yourself, you can figure out what he is trying to do.
But even if you have the same spell, you may cast it in a completely different way from the person you are observing, so it may not be immediately obvious what they are doing if it varies from the method you use by a long way.
As for the relevance, does a fighter (or more likely a rogue) with UMD need spellcraft to be able to ask a shopkeeper for spells in any but the most generic terms?
He walks in and says: "I want a wand that casts that spell our wizard uses, you know, the one with the wall of force that stops those magic missiles and stuff?"
Or else he goes in with the party wizard who asks for him.
Why can't fighters call out for spells they want IC? Certainly spells they've seen the party casters use before or had cast on them. And I'd assume they talk about tactics and possible uses of spells around the campfire. Wouldn't you want to know what the people you're fighting with can do?
That depends on how the party functions. If they have discussed in advance and know what spells the casters can cast because the casters told them, that's perfectly cool. They will call for the spell in whatever terms are most expedient.
The entire concept of the existence of wands, potions and staffs which can be purchased at magic shops necessitates a common magical lexicon. It would be absurd to think that purchasing a scroll goes something like this:
"Hey, I'm looking for a scroll of that spell that makes a big billowing cloud."
"Ah, you must mean 'obfuscating acidic degradation'! Right over here."
"Um... 'acidic'? I don't think that's right, I don't remember any acidic whatever... it was more of a people dropping to the ground thing."
"Oho! That's quite different my friend. Now you must be speaking of 'bronchial occluding manifestation'!"
"What? I don't know, does that kill people?"
"Kill people! Why didn't you say you wanted a lethal version... Wait a minute... I think that's a more rare spell.... something like 'suffocating calciferous pall' I think.... do you remember what color the fog was?"
I mean geebuz people.
The entire concept of the existence of wands, potions and staffs which can be purchased at magic shops necessitates a common magical lexicon. It would be absurd to think that purchasing a scroll goes something like this:
"Hey, I'm looking for a scroll of that spell that makes a big billowing cloud."
"Ah, you must mean 'obfuscating acidic degradation'! Right over here."
"Um... 'acidic'? I don't think that's right, I don't remember any acidic whatever... it was more of a people dropping to the ground thing."
"Oho! That's quite different my friend. Now you must be speaking of 'bronchial occluding manifestation'!"
"What? I don't know, does that kill people?"
"Kill people! Why didn't you say you wanted a lethal version... Wait a minute... I think that's a more rare spell.... something like 'suffocating calciferous pall' I think.... do you remember what color the fog was?"
I mean geebuz people.
All depends on what the group expectations are and how the GM runs the RP for his table. If it were that way for EVERY purchase then I probably wouldn't like it 20 sessions in. But some people really like verisimilitude in their games (discounting magic and such).
But on the other hand, if they are a group that has great chemistry and is heavy into RP, it could make them all closer. Imagine Barbarian McBarbarian trying to buy something and getting confused as in your scenario. Switch to the rest of the party waiting for him to come out. Wizardy McWizard goes something like "Not again!!!" and heads into the shop and hilarity ensues as the confusion gets cleared up. Could be fun.
**EDIT**
Plus, after the first time the confusion is cleared up about a spell, Barbarian McBarbarian now knows the spell name and doesn't need help a 2nd (well...maybe 3rd depending on Int) time to buy it.
"Part of, perhaps. Not the same thing. Telling from a few quick gestures and a couple of words what spell is being cast before it goes off is entirely different than knowing that a spell exists or even what it's called. Does a wizard who fails a spellcheck watching an enemy cast Improved Invisibility not know that there is such a spell, even if he has it himself?"
If they failed that means they fail to remember that 2 x a is 6. they did reson that a = 3
Or they still know about Improved Invisibility, they just couldn't tell from what they saw and heard what he was casting.
"Why can't fighters call out for spells they want IC? Certainly spells they've seen the party casters use before or had cast on them. And I'd assume they talk about tactics and possible uses of spells around the campfire. Wouldn't you want to know what the people you're fighting with can do?"
Again... If they do and they learned some thing by that talk then show that by putting a rank in spell craft.
You are skilled at the art of casting spells, identifying magic items, crafting magic items, and identifying spells as they are being cast.[/craft]
He's not learning how to id spells as they're being cast. He's not learning how to id magic items. He's not learning how to cast spells or craft items.
All he's doing is learning a little about what his comrade in arms is capable of, so they can cooperate better. That's not spellcraft.So you would rule that if a fighter has Enlarge Person cast on him in one fight, he cannot suggest it in a later fight unless he puts ranks in spellcraft? Would "Do that thing you did before where I got big!" be acceptable? If the caster tells him it's called "Enlarge Person", is he still not allowed to use the name? Or is he now forced to put points into Spellcraft? Is it a DC 16 spellcraft check to remember the 1st level spell the wizard cast on you the day before?
I believe that all mages should shout the name of the spell as they cast it, like in the webcomics.
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The entire concept of the existence of wands, potions and staffs which can be purchased at magic shops necessitates a common magical lexicon. It would be absurd to think that purchasing a scroll goes something like this:
"Hey, I'm looking for a scroll of that spell that makes a big billowing cloud."
"Ah, you must mean 'obfuscating acidic degradation'! Right over here."
"Um... 'acidic'? I don't think that's right, I don't remember any acidic whatever... it was more of a people dropping to the ground thing."
"Oho! That's quite different my friend. Now you must be speaking of 'bronchial occluding manifestation'!"
"What? I don't know, does that kill people?"
"Kill people! Why didn't you say you wanted a lethal version... Wait a minute... I think that's a more rare spell.... something like 'suffocating calciferous pall' I think.... do you remember what color the fog was?"
I mean geebuz people.
Have you never watched a non-builder trying to buy specific building supplies in a hardware store, or a non-electrician try to get electronic components in an electronics store? It's just like that, as I am sure you know.
But here's the thing, we get this confusion in our 'real world' with the benefits of mass production and international trading standards. As it is, differences between kilograms and pounds, meters and feet, newtons and foot-pounds, as well as similar brand-names, create a major headache.
Magic items are effectively crafted in a cottage industry, each crafter being a lore unto himself as to how it is done. I always treat items as largely being custom made, after all would you sink thousands of gold into making a wand when you might have to wait six months for a buyer? No, you have a few examples in your shop (and it's a workshop, not a store) and when somebody wants something you make it specifically for them. Hence you can ensure the buyer has the right spell by casting it for him before hand if need be, or casting a minor image of the spell's effects to confirm that it is what the buyer wants. When you are dealing with large sums of money you make very sure that you are making what he wants because dissatisfied customers can be very touchy.
My take is that spells have a nigh-infinite variety of IC names and minor cosmetic variations and characters with the right skills don't identify the spell by name but rather observe the particulars of its casting and the effect, then classify it based on their personal educations.
Most originators of new spells give them some kind of overblown name, since they spent a lot of time, effort, and cash on developing the thing. Whether that name propagates in their casting culture depends on the culture, the originator's position with in it, etc. Across cultural boundaries and over time these names tend to get ground down to something close to what we see in the rulebooks out of simple pragmatism. It's never come up, but there are academic arguments about who first cast which spell and whether X deserves to be considered a "proper" spell or merely a variation on an extant one.
It's extremely rare in my games for the IC names to come up, though. Rules talk like "can I get X cast on me?" happens OOC. Likewise trading spells between prepared casters usually happens OOC, but when it doesn't I usually have the NPC use a name in the format of Creator's Overblown Description of Effect or Overblow Description of Effect of Creator.
Armigerious Revelation of Sutymose is True Strike, for example. But a wizard of different education might call it something different. He might also use some variant casting flourishes and have a cosmetically different visible effect. Part of training in the relevant skills is sorting out the actual moving parts of the spell from these cultural oddities.
...I have never had any players who were inclined to give a damn either. :)
The entire concept of the existence of wands, potions and staffs which can be purchased at magic shops necessitates a common magical lexicon. It would be absurd to think that purchasing a scroll goes something like this:
"Hey, I'm looking for a scroll of that spell that makes a big billowing cloud."
"Ah, you must mean 'obfuscating acidic degradation'! Right over here."
"Um... 'acidic'? I don't think that's right, I don't remember any acidic whatever... it was more of a people dropping to the ground thing."
"Oho! That's quite different my friend. Now you must be speaking of 'bronchial occluding manifestation'!"
"What? I don't know, does that kill people?"
"Kill people! Why didn't you say you wanted a lethal version... Wait a minute... I think that's a more rare spell.... something like 'suffocating calciferous pall' I think.... do you remember what color the fog was?"
I mean geebuz people.
That's not the point. See my post earlier about how "common knowledge" doesn't mean "everyone knows it" or even "most people know it". It just means the information isn't too hard to come by. But again, name the things listed. Name 20 stars. 50 sports players. 30 car models. Just because you CAN know it, or temporarily find out when it's necessary, doesn't mean you DO know it currently.
I think it's absurd for the dumpstat meatshield to be able to have a concept of metaphysics and have the capacity to name over 150 specific spells and their effects at will, when he is barely skillful enough to find food laying around outside AND hear things at the same time.
Gru, the 7 int illiterate barbarian with anomalously high charisma and UMD walks into a magic shop.
Gru: "I saw a guy in funny robes cast a spell and tap one of his minions and he got bigger. Can I get a wand that does that?
Apprentice Wizard: (goes to the clearly labeled wand rack and finds a wand of enlarge person) "That'll be 750 gold."
(Gru hands over 750 gold and the wizard does an appraise check to see if any are counterfeit)
Do you really want to go through that sort of thing every time you buy a magic item?
Yes, and if the barbarian wants to become invisible the shop would try to sell him a wand of Greater Invisibility, and not Vanish or Invisibility, because that costs more.
I think it's absurd for the dumpstat meatshield to be able to have a concept of metaphysics and have the capacity to name over 150 specific spells and their effects at will, when he is barely skillful enough to find food laying around outside AND hear things at the same time.Whereas I think it's quite reasonable for the clever fighter to have a pretty good idea what his companion spellcasters are capable of and something of what they expect their enemies to be capable off and to have picked up some of the names they use for their spells, while still not having studied the practice and metaphysics of magic enough to recognize a spell from the casting gestures or be able to identify magic items.
IOW, I don't think the names of spells and rough knowledge of what they can do falls under Spellcraft, because that brings too much other more useful stuff along with it. Since there isn't any other more appropriate skill and it simplifies play, I'd say spells are common knowledge.
Clever fighter, sure. But cleverness implies... cleverness. The clever fighter does magic research. The superstitious orc barbarian hits things with his fists or club.
Also, why could they NOT identify magic items that replicate spell effects? If they know spells and spell effects as it is, they should also know of the existence of magic items that use those same effects. If they know of the magic items and what they do, seeing one should be enough to jog their memory.
I thought of one that gets weird. The Summon Monster spells, since they're numbered.
Nothing in the Spellcraft RAW mentions naming spells or what they can do. Nothing in the Spellcraft Raw sets a DC for it.
I agree, Jeff. Spellcraft seems to be for identifying spell effects through observation, whereas knowing the in-game spell names would be a matter of Knowledge (arcana). That means that character without ranks wouldn't know the name of any spells with a DC above ten, but it would be incumbent on the DM to assign DCs for each and every spell.
No insult to anyone here, but I think that requiring skill checks to know the names of spells is on the wrong side of the crunch/fluff border. I'm the kind of DM who likes to give each one of my nations its own name for GP, and I'll always take a minute to think of a name for the local tavern rather than calling it Local Tavern #184; while that results in a more enjoyable game, I don't think it's anything but flavor text. Having one wizard cast Glignur's Exploding Thrown Pea while another uses The Spherical Conflagration of Xaldow is fun, but it's fluff, not crunch.
Does it actually result in a more enjoyable game?
Well, it does for me, and I'm the DM, so there you are. :P
That's an acceptable answer!
I think it's absurd for the dumpstat meatshield to be able to have a concept of metaphysics and have the capacity to name over 150 specific spells and their effects at will, when he is barely skillful enough to find food laying around outside AND hear things at the same time.Whereas I think it's quite reasonable for the clever fighter to have a pretty good idea what his companion spellcasters are capable of and something of what they expect their enemies to be capable off and to have picked up some of the names they use for their spells, while still not having studied the practice and metaphysics of magic enough to recognize a spell from the casting gestures or be able to identify magic items.
IOW, I don't think the names of spells and rough knowledge of what they can do falls under Spellcraft, because that brings too much other more useful stuff along with it. Since there isn't any other more appropriate skill and it simplifies play, I'd say spells are common knowledge.
Clever fighter, sure. But cleverness implies... cleverness. The clever fighter does magic research. The superstitious orc barbarian hits things with his fists or club.
Also, why could they NOT identify magic items that replicate spell effects? If they know spells and spell effects as it is, they should also know of the existence of magic items that use those same effects. If they know of the magic items and what they do, seeing one should be enough to jog their memory.
Hence the reason to to take ranks in spell craft. Smart fighter take ranks in it ie those whom have a INT of 13 or highter. Dumb ones do not. All do to fact that have or do not skill points. It not that hard to get. Big bumd fighter low INT maens low skill point and you do not know jack@*#$. Smart skilled fighter means a higher INT. There for has skill points to spend and uses them to show it.
I am sorry to all min max out there who want STR, DEX, CON of all 16+ so they dump CHA and INT. Only to find out that there is more to game than high BaB and Big Bump to damage.
If you want to take it to the far end yes. You have 3 vials one says vanish, 2 says Invisibility, 3 says Greater invisibility, If you do not have ranks in spell craft as your are concerned they all do the same thing.
Same idea with enlarge person and divine power.
As far as magic mart thought if I was your GM and your had no spell craft. You would get a random potion each and every time you bought one. Also you would be over charge for it. Causes the big dumb fighter doses not know any better. They are a mark or sucker waiting to picked.
Bottom Line you have to think about some that have no knowledge about like pottery from between 450- 300BC and know which one came form China or which one comes form Japan. What one is rare or more common?
Again what is the point of have PC that can do every thing? That leaves no room to share the stage with any one else. We play Role playing games to be with other people. If we do it all… What is the point of them being there with you…
So if you want to be skilled be skilled. If you want to big dumb fighter be big dumb fighter. But do not play one and act like the other. Just because you know the difference in the spell or items dose not mean your character dose. On the same token your character may know things you do not. It ok… It is role-playing or pretending.
Sure, I'll take Spellcraft if I want to be able to identify spells as the enemy casts them. It's useful. I'm still not going to be able to id magic items, since I can't cast detect magic. Or are you saying that it takes Spellcraft to identify an item even when it's used?
"Geez I drank this potion and turned invisible. I wonder what it does?"
I don't take spellcraft so that I can use the name the wizard told me yesterday when I want him to cast Enlarge Person on me again. Or when I go to the magic mart so I can buy potions of it an stop bothering him.
Just like Tom S 820 said, you sure have the option to go in and ask a clerk for Potion of Enlarge Person (as you're wizard called it the other day), but you better pray to your deity of choice that the clerk isn't evil or even true neutral. At best you'd get overcharged, at worst you'd get a Potion of Reduce Person, and you can't tell the difference if it's not labeled...even then you wouldn't be able to tell if it's labeled correctly.
YOU may know as a player what the potion is. BDF (Big Dumb Fighter) at level 1 or 2? They probably don't even know the name yet. They'd learn names as they adventured more. Even as they learned names, though, they wouldn't be able to tell if it really is a potion of X unless they brought it to someone who could tell.
It depends on the table. Yes, I've played in groups that absolutely RP the entire market experience down to the haggling and ability to tell if the gem I want is REALLY worth it using any Craft, Profession, or Appraise skills I have.
You kind of make our points for us by talking about a reasonably intelligent level 15 fighter, sure he knows lots of spell names and what they did for him when they were cast upon him. But he's going to have a hard time identifying if he got swindled since he's not a caster.
On the flip side, the majority of games I've played breeze over the topic, and rightly so for that particular table.
Players and GM's at one table have totally different expectations than players and GM's from a different table.
Anyone with a good Perception skill can tell you EXACTLY what kind of spell is contained in a potion bottle with absolutely no prior knowledge of spell names or classifications, or of what "shrinking" tastes like (no ranks in Spellcraft).
What's that about?
;P