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We Powergamers are a much maligned group of players. We play a game and want to be the best at it, and yet are called out for ruining the game that we love. We are branded, so to speak, as munchkins, min-maxers, non-roleplayers, rules-lawyers, and other mean labels. All because we love (and are good at) rules synergy and math.
So below, I am listing my top 5 tips for being a powergamer and hiding your evil math-based powers from your group.
1) Create a Backstory and Roleplay: Powergamers frequently get identified by their lack of roleplaying, so fake it. Create a backstory and character based upon your favorite comic book or video game character not named Wolverine or Sephiroth, and just think "What would so-and-so do?" It takes very little time and effort, and you will be able to pretend you are roleplaying like everyone else. Which brings me to number 2.
2) Don't roleplay the antagonist: Keeping in mind that D&D is usually not player vs. player, a quick and easy way to identify powergamers at the table is by comparing characters. If your character has higher damage than the Barbarian, better defense than the Sword+Board Paladin, and is a better Skillmonkey than the Bard, people will notice. So don't give them a reason to compare character sheets. Don't intentionally start inter-party conflict to prove your character can "win" against the non-powergamers. If you do, rocks will fall, and your character will die.
3) Moderate your min/maxing (no extremes): I know this is counter-intuitive, but min/maxing will usually not help you in the game. Sure, it will give you a mechanical advantage, but there is no faster way to single yourself out from your group than extreme min/maxing, which, in turn, could trigger DM retribution. For example, instead of taking 20 Str and dumping Int to 7, take 19 Str and keep Int at 10. Or instead of taking the 9 best feats for your build, take the 8 best feats and 1 OK feat instead.
4) Give credit to the other players: So combat is over and your party just barely survived. And by "just barely survived," I mean that your teammates are near death and out of resources, and you were hardly touched. You should instantly compliment your teammates in or out of character. "Man Cleric, without your Bless and Protection from Evil, I would have been in trouble. Thank you." "Wizard, that Haste saved my life!" "Bard, your singing totally won that fight?" Is it true? Probably not, but by attributing your success to other people, you encourage people to overlook the fact that you are overpowered.
5) Don't show off unless you need to: You are a powergamer. You have a better build that everyone else in your party. You don't need to prove it. In fact, you want to *hide* it. You don't want your DM to know your super-nasty rage-charge-lance-pounce-autocrit-stun combo, because then the bad guys will prepare for it. And in most combat, being superpowered is unnecessary. Your party is more than a match for that CR=APL ogre guard, so why 1 shot it in the first round of combat? That is just showing off how awesome you are. The smarter thing is to *hide* how awesome you are until it matters. Instead of being the jerk who 1 shots an easy enemy and doesn't let anyone else play, be the hero who kills the dragon when all hope seems lost.
Follow these 5 tips, and noone will suspect that you are a powergamer. No gaming group will ostracize you. No DM will design encounters specifically to counter you. Lay low, roleplay, minimize your min/maxing, play nice with the party, and people will cheer you killing the dragon, instead of cheering when the dragon kills you.
Moderating your min/maxing is key.
Especially if your DM is not good at custom encounter building.
A veteran DM can deal with any character, but newer ones become frustrated fast.
I moderated the hell out of a monk I built in my sister's campaign a while back. I even went so far as to give her hints about my weaknesses. That monk was super OP though, so I don't really blame her for her frustration.
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I always s felt that when designing characters understanding the play paradigm of your group is key. You can be the pest in your group and still stay inside the framework.
I would also avoid rules grey areas.
I moderated the hell out of a monk I built in my sister's campaign a while back. I even went so far as to give her hints about my weaknesses. That monk was super OP though, so I don't really blame her for her frustration.
OP Monk... Does... not... compute
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All of them are good; #4 is a good special case of #5, but I personally like #5. I like my characters to be prepared for anything (an ideal I'm sure everyone likes and is rarely achieved). But it doesn't mean nova every encounter even if it were possible. For one thing it's inefficient and for another it just attracts extra grief (either from fellow PCs, 'cause you're overshadowing them, or from the DM, who now feels the need to build more challenging encounters, producing an escalation that no player can win, or from NPCs in-character who would naturally feel the need to respond in kind).
Contribute all the time but only bring out the big guns when needed. There's no need for overkill, but of course means having the big guns *so* you can bring them out when needed. If you build sub-par on purpose, you won't have the big guns if and when you need it.
Edit: I'll add....
6) Help: if you know you're good at builds, give helpful tips and ideas for character concepts of your fellow players, in a non-condescending manner. Ideas on feat choices, suggestions for spell selection and creative use of them, equipment ideas, all that kind of stuff - when not overdone or done obnoxiously - can prevent getting the reputation of being a "selfish power-gamer" wanting to have THE stand-out character and instead earning the reputation of a helpful friend wanting a stronger party overall rather than a dominant character. (Of course it goes without saying don't be pushy about it if your advice, once offered, is rejected as not fitting the other person's character concept, or whatnot. The idea is to offer advice, not impose your idea of what the character should be on theirs).
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This actually brings up a good implied point: Powergaming is really not the problem, player arrogance is. I have no problem with min-maxing as long as the player is fun to play with (read: humble). Even if he just acts humble and does it with enough sincerity so that it doesn't sound sarcastic.
You're comment about D&D not being PvP is poignant. Any attitude that smacks of the 13-year-old arrogance you see in most online PvP games (and powergammers are more susceptible to such an attitude) does not go over well in circumstance that are not anonymous.
Anyway, some excellent points on how to powergame. I concur.
I moderated the hell out of a monk I built in my sister's campaign a while back. I even went so far as to give her hints about my weaknesses. That monk was super OP though, so I don't really blame her for her frustration.OP Monk... Does... not... compute
Granted the monk was absolute garbage by herself, but she was built for party utility/tanking. Master of Many Styles combining Snake/Crane/Mantis styles and min/maxing AC, saves and Stunning Fist DC made her completely unkillable in most situations (CMD was average) and she was able to disable bosses due to excessively high Stunning Fist DC. Her hit and damage were terrible, but that wasn't the point. Picked up a team work feat with the party Rogue who was tailored to fight by my side. Paired Opportunist twk feat + Rogue talent Opportunist meant I was frequently granting her max AoO per round. She was using a single attack feint build, so with multiple AoO's per round... that's a lot of sneak attacks. There are obvious weaknesses to the build and strategy that a seasoned DM could exploit, but considering the Summor and Feral Mutagen Alchemist we had in the party... I think an unkillable monk was the least of her worries.
Best moment for the monk: At level 12 successfully stunned a CR 17 Raksasha Mystic Theurge and in the two subsequent rounds succeeded in three 7th-level spell saves. She was pretty mad about that one.
Well, Pen and Paper CAN be PvP.
There are entire 3rd party product lines dedicated to the concept.
An antagonizing character can be fun if he's played right and knows when to not be an antagonist.
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Dear OP: I see what you did there. Well played.
Well, Pen and Paper CAN be PvP.
There are entire 3rd party product lines dedicated to the concept.
An antagonizing character can be fun if he's played right and knows when to not be an antagonist.
The antagonist is only acceptable if the character, and not the player, is an antagonist, and everyone in the party understands that distinction.
I find this to be rare, and typically only acceptable with a group of people that all know each other fairly well.
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Nobody gets angry at anybody for being good at math and knowing the rules. (Well, maybe school bullies of the jock variety might, but that's not who's sitting round the table with you at a game.)
People get angry at smugness, selfishness, uncooperativeness, inflexibility, meanness, obstinacy, superiority complexes, showboating, and people who demonstrate a desire to achieve the non-goal of abstract power and wealth through the discomfort and at the expense of the fun of, other people.
If you want to change the negative perception of certain groups, then those are the things that need concentration. The notion that one could "get away with it" is just more fuel on the fire. You wouldn't need to "get away with" anything if you were being better than dishonest and selfish in the first place. You only need to "get away with it" because you know you are up to something less than honest in the first place. Or, at least, less than worthy of such a high level of dedication.
It's not real power. It's not real gold. It's not worth friendships and good will.
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I moderated the hell out of a monk I built in my sister's campaign a while back. I even went so far as to give her hints about my weaknesses. That monk was super OP though, so I don't really blame her for her frustration.OP Monk... Does... not... compute
I suggest you read more about monk builds ; as they have the most potential to sheer awesomeness. My tetori monk was unkillable and grappled/pinned 3 giants at once on a common basis.
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Monks, especially the archetypes, are ridiculous.
On the topic of this thread, the most important thing a person can do if they have a tendency to build mechanically superior characters is #4 on the OP's list. If the rest of the party are getting their time to shine, no one's going to care that you can one-shot a level appropriate monster, or that you're virtually indestructible. It's only when you allow your superiority to overshadow the rest of your compatriots to the point that they feel like there's nothing for them to do that you'll start finding yourself being shunned from your gaming group.
I see what you did there...
P.S.
Any decent GM will identify the powergamer and adapt encounter situations and level so everyone has fun. When this happens the real powergamers (but really jerks, is not optimizing that's the problem it's trying to always steal the scene from other players) will show their true colors screaming at the GM because he dared to marginalize them instead of allowing them to kill all the opponents.
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5) Don't show off unless you need to:
A friend was telling me about a game he played in (I do not know the game system they were playing). One player was very experienced and was playing an archer character of some sort and the rest were newer players. They had been playing together for several months, real time, when the GM tossed a really challenging encounter at the party. Things were looking grim, when the player unleashed a hail of arrows in a turn. All the players and the GM looked at him, stunned. He had never fired more than one a round before. After he explained mechanically how it worked, the shocked GM said, "I didn't know you could do that". The player replied, "I never had to, before."
The player toned down his power level to that of the group, but was able to create such a memorable scene, that my friend remembered it years later, and still talked about it!
If you are in a group of similar skill and playstyle, you don't need to hold back. In a group of mixed experience, skill, system mastery, or interest in creating uber characters, there is still a way to be a team player, but shine at memorable moments.
I think this thread serves a very nice purpose.
In the same vein as if somebody is a narcissistic sociopath, and literally can't feel empathy for other people, or share in their joy, or even relate to or perhaps understand emotion -- therapy and a series of tools to "fake" being an actual person in the conventional sense can be useful for sociopathic humans to mesh and be able to work with regular human beings. Just like this a system of guidelines for the power-gamer can help them to interface with human beings so they can do what they do in the presence of other human beings. (As it's already been said, and let's face it -- it's not about skill or math that power-gamers are reviled, they're reviled for their arrogance and self-centeredness, and a need to outshine or not be dependent on any other person in what is essentially a team and group activity.
Many power gamers (generally to a much smaller extent) really remind me of sociopathic narcissists -- and their limitations on empathy and capacity to enjoy other people's triumphs really shows through quickly. While not as good as ACTUALLY GROWING UP AND BEING A GOOD FRIEND AND HUMAN BEING, having a clever disguise that makes your presence as a hideous insecure shell of human being will go miles towards making your presence and continued participation possible.
Therapy might not hurt either.
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The player replied, "I never had to, before."
The player toned down his power level to that of the group, but was able to create such a memorable scene, that my friend remembered it years later, and still talked about it!
Now THAT'S a boss. As long as it didn't require rules-lawyering and was in fact legal and acceptable (preferably obvious and elegant) I wouldn't mind this at all... A moment like this reminds me of Epic moments like Aeowyn One-shotting the Witch King.
That's an example of a person who is content in the fact they have a big stick, and doesn't need to wave it in everybody's face. When your stick is a pretend stick -- people aren't in awe of it like you think they are.
Lol, good posts! As a convicted powergamer, I can relate. Thing is, I have always roleplayed. Even though I intentionally "dumb down" my characters now, or give them some weaknesses to make them challenging, I still get the PG tag now and then. And I have deduced that this actually comes from my rping!
I can honestly say I am never smug or condescending, but when I rp a character I am neck deep in them. I sort of "channel" the persona, my crude rendition of acting.
Because of this, my pcs can be a bit intense in the personality department. Intense in this case= confident with a good sense of self. Somehow, folks at my gaming table alwaysbelieve I am far more powerful than I actually am. My dm says I contribute to that sometimes troubling mystique because I NEVER, EVER reveal my class/build to the other players, except only in generic terms.(I.E. "I'm a fighter, mage, etc)
I maintain that I do this to keep some element of mystery and intrigue in the game. I refuse to simply be quantified and shelved away. ( I admit, part of this comes from years of playing MMO's and having other people walk up to me and tell me I"m playing my character wrong. I mean, I could hold my own in any group against any mob, but some slob comes up to me who doesnt even know me and tells me basically that I am not min/maxed by their vision of the game? Shove off! Online players can make their endless clones of successful charcater combos other people pioneered, but I was always my own person. And my combos, though weird sometimes, worked efficiently enough I was never LFG long. Sorry, where did that rant come from?)
Anyway, I agree with your five points, though it is somewhat sad that it has come down to this for you.
Wait, why is it sad?
Guilty of powergaming...doting this thread for later.
The player replied, "I never had to, before."
The player toned down his power level to that of the group, but was able to create such a memorable scene, that my friend remembered it years later, and still talked about it!
Now THAT'S a boss. As long as it didn't require rules-lawyering and was in fact legal and acceptable (preferably obvious and elegant) I wouldn't mind this at all... A moment like this reminds me of Epic moments like Aeowyn One-shotting the Witch King.
That's an example of a person who is content in the fact they have a big stick, and doesn't need to wave it in everybody's face. When your stick is a pretend stick -- people aren't in awe of it like you think they are.
Uh, that's 'Eowyn,' and the only thing she one-shotted was the Witch-King's flying mount. The Hobbit with her one-shotted the Witch-King.
Just sayin'.
Well, its a good thing when you manage to make compromises in your life that do the most good and bring the most peace to the most people.
Conversely, it can be a sad thing when you have to compromise so much of yourself and hide behind a mask just to "fit in" with other peoples' perceptions and limitations. I'm sure many people can relate to this in different ways.
1) Create a Backstory and Roleplay: Powergamers frequently get identified by their lack of roleplaying, so fake it. Create a backstory and character based upon your favorite comic book or video game character not named Wolverine or Sephiroth, and just think "What would so-and-so do?" It takes very little time and effort, and you will be able to pretend you are roleplaying like everyone else. Which brings me to number 2.
This isn't pretending; this is actually a kind of role playing, even if some character actors look down their noses at players who don't invent their own characters whole-cloth and play the game as one with their character.
4) Give credit to the other players: So combat is over and your party just barely survived. And by "just barely survived," I mean that your teammates are near death and out of resources, and you were hardly touched. You should instantly compliment your teammates in or out of character. "Man Cleric, without your Bless and Protection from Evil, I would have been in trouble. Thank you." "Wizard, that Haste saved my life!" "Bard, your singing totally won that fight?" Is it true? Probably not, but by attributing your success to other people, you encourage people to overlook the fact that you are overpowered.
People are always ready to believe the best of their own contributions. :)
Well, its a good thing when you manage to make compromises in your life that do the most good and bring the most peace to the most people.
Conversely, it can be a sad thing when you have to compromise so much of yourself and hide behind a mask just to "fit in" with other peoples' perceptions and limitations. I'm sure many people can relate to this in different ways.
I think this is the most profound and well-couched argument for the power-gamer I've ever heard.
Fitting in with other people's perceptions is one of the things that truly makes a team, even a civilization, work. If your associates are unpredictable, or their goals are not shared, you're far less likely to synthesize with them and you won't have as solid a bond. If this wasn't the case, concepts like "Culture" wouldn't be so popular.
That being said, I am no more a fan of "slumming" and embracing the mediocrity of weak players than I am willing to be an un-regarded and unnecessary appendage of somebody who fancies themselves superior. If you truly cannot deal with being anything less than a Rolling Gravestone or Glory-Glutton I'd say you'd best surround yourself with other folks who are just as serious about their builds, or guide your friends to make characters that can keep up with you.
I am no more inclined (in fact less so) to celebrate some mook at the other end of the table who simply chews their gum loudly, doesn't know what dice to roll, and their feat choice seems inspired by a game of beer hall darts than the person who knows exactly what they are doing and their chosen means of expression, of being true to themselves, is to make everyone else feel invalid.
If the central crux of the behavior wasn't inherently douchey, there wouldn't be "Getting away with it" in the thread title. In all honesty, if in any collective shared activity where everyone's time is equally valuable, I have to question why I would keep company with anybody who wanted, or needed, to "Get away with" anything.
The "Get away" at my table, would be to be shown the door. And if as a power gamer you ever are -- Nobody is jealous, they just don't mind a story where there is more than one character worth liking in it.
I'd also say it's not a "mask" to take a little bit of a back-seat to make other people feel valid, or give them a chance to succeed where you already know you would. What loss is there if the outcome is the same? You can feel secure in your capacity to do so, but you let somebody else demonstrate their worth as well.
There's also something to be said about uplifting weaker folks with limitations, but I'd leave such things to fully agreed groups who as a whole embrace such altruism. I made an argument in a different thread that builds that have huge flaws by design (i.e., "I want my character to be mute!") are a liability and an unnecessary burden for a team.
IRL I wouldn't mind ONE BIT hanging out with somebody who could single-handedly deal with any situation I'd encounter. I'd be around them ALL THE DAMN TIME if I could. But when you're talking about a game where everyone is there to play a hero... c'mon. You're taking advantage stealing everyone's thunder. And that's a dick move.
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Er... OK... Wow...
So roleplaying is something you fake to put people off the scent, you need to patronise the other players and hide your abilities from your fellow PC's and the GM so they won't get mad.
This sort of stuff is why people need to be reminded of the Stormwind Fallacy.
This isn't an optimisation argument, it's an argument about how you approach the game. Roleplaying games are not there to be won, at least not by an individual. These rules (so long as this is not a joke post) are set up on the basis that you are playing against the GM and by extension the other players. This is the wrong mindset to approach the game with. Roleplaying is a collaborative effort but when one player dominates and is the best at everything the experience of everyone else is diminished.
Now I am not saying that you should not optimise. Of course you should take decent feats and character options. What you should not do is try to create mechanical perfection because that way you will dominate the game and make it boring for everyone else.
The best way I can put it is this. Imagine you are invited for a game of basketball 2 on 2 with your friends. Now imagine that you are fairly decently matched and you have a close game. That's cool, everybody wins because the game is competitive and fun.
Now imagine that one of those friends is Michael Jordan.
Now you are left with the option of getting your butts kicked or worse MJ playing deliberately bad. It's just as bad if you are partnered with MJ because all you are there to do is make up the numbers. That's lame. Your choice is to be embarrassed, ignored or patronised.
What you are trying to do with these rules is do the third of those two in order to avoid the first two. I would contend that each one of these three options is just as bad as the others.
So how do you avoid this? Easy, don't play Michael Jordan. How to do this is to approach the game from another angle. Think about what sort of character you want to play, not the stats but the character. Where is he from, who are his parents, what does he believe? Then once you have that make that concept work mechanically. Crucially don't try to do everything, don't seek to dominate, don't min max. Play a Fighter with a Charisma of 12 or 13 or an intelligent Barbarian because that fits the character concept. You don't have to go nuts, you still want to be useful just don't approach the game as a mechanical challenge to beat.
Basically try to avoid making everyone else Short Round to your Indiana Jones. People will thank you for it.
I like the way you put it, Camelot... but to at least some power gamers your advice will never be adopted... because they don't come up with concepts and then build a character that embodies them. They make builds and then MAYBE come up with a plausible explanation for why a Kobold Monk like "pun-pun" (google that if you're not familiar) would have the obscure configuration of traits and feats that allow him to become a god at level 1.
Some power gamers don't even role-play. Their entire catharsis is asserting superiority over unwitting people who came to participate, and not dominate. Hence my comparing them to sociopathic narcissists.
It's great advice for those of us with a little more "ahem" character... and I hope some power gamers can adopt it somewhat. The worst offenders, the ones that give the game a bad name and give everyone a story that merely hearing makes an empathic person's teeth hurt? They just might need a guide to know how to pretend to be a co-operative and decent human being.
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You've actually managed to logically define the pejorative powergamer, and quite well.
Others have been trying at that definition recently, I think this is better.
To take the inverse of your advice, a is:
1)Uninvolved or uninterested in the plot and/or thematic roleplay.
2)Antagonistic to the other players, or hyper-competitive.
3)Favors extremes.
4)Condescending to other players, ignoring their contributions.
5)A show off.
To be honest, a so-called "powergamer" with none of these personality defects is just a good player. Does anyone come to this game, laden as it is with super powers, wanting to play an ineffective hero?
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5) Don't show off unless you need to:A friend was telling me about a game he played in (I do not know the game system they were playing). One player was very experienced and was playing an archer character of some sort and the rest were newer players. They had been playing together for several months, real time, when the GM tossed a really challenging encounter at the party. Things were looking grim, when the player unleashed a hail of arrows in a turn. All the players and the GM looked at him, stunned. He had never fired more than one a round before. After he explained mechanically how it worked, the shocked GM said, "I didn't know you could do that". The player replied, "I never had to, before."
The player toned down his power level to that of the group, but was able to create such a memorable scene, that my friend remembered it years later, and still talked about it!
If you are in a group of similar skill and playstyle, you don't need to hold back. In a group of mixed experience, skill, system mastery, or interest in creating uber characters, there is still a way to be a team player, but shine at memorable moments.
See, I'm the type of player who helps less skilled players so that I don't have to hold back.
I teach them how to create powerful character so that we all can go forth and be the hero.
I don't like to carry teams, I can't stand it, so I wouldn't want to be the only skilled player in a party.
Basically, if I am a player, ALL the other players are going to have minmaxed characters too, unless they don't let me help, then I couldn't care less how much more powerful my character is. I gave them the opportunity.
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I would add "work within the GM's confines." Don't ask for the uberpowerful 3pp PrC that will immediately make the GM suspicious and want to crack down on you, just work to optimize within the limits the GM set for the campaign. If the GM sees you as cooperative then he's not going to go, "Oh no a power gamer!" and immediately seek ways to limit your character.
And yeah, there's a difference between being a jerk powergamer and someone who's just really good at optimizing.
See, I'm the type of player who helps less skilled players so that I don't have to hold back.
I teach them how to create powerful character so that we all can go forth and be the hero.
I don't like to carry teams, I can't stand it, so I wouldn't want to be the only skilled player in a party.
Basically, if I am a player, ALL the other players are going to have minmaxed characters too, unless they don't let me help, then I couldn't care less how much more powerful my character is. I gave them the opportunity.
I try to do this as well. Even to the GM. "Here's some tips in throwing challenging but not unbeatable encounters."
Yeah, helping the GM can be huge as a lot of vitriol thrown toward mixmaxers is from GMs who aren't great at encounter design.
It's why I think powergamers make excellent GMs. We enjoy the art of mechanical manipulation of the rules, which means we actually enjoy encounter building.
It also means that we don't fear powergamers, as nothing they can make will be worse than what I can make.
I am never sure whether my optimization actually falls under power gaming, but I do stack things in my favor as much as possible without actually min-maxing (I very very rarely dump anything). But that has become much more of a "my dice keep ******* me over" than a "I want to dominate this game" thing.
My groups will tell you, as a player, I have the most ridiculous "luck." I will consistently fumble any time I try to do anything remotely heroic or badass, crit on relatively unimportant skill checks (IE: diplomacy to haggle for a few gold), but my dice are clutch. They won't let my characters die because I guess they like making them stumble around and break bowstrings or something.
Good advice though, even for non-power gamers.
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I am never sure whether my optimization actually falls under power gaming, but I do stack things in my favor as much as possible without actually min-maxing (I very very rarely dump anything). But that has become much more of a "my dice keep ******* me over" than a "I want to dominate this game" thing.
My groups will tell you, as a player, I have the most ridiculous "luck." I will consistently fumble any time I try to do anything remotely heroic or badass, crit on relatively unimportant skill checks (IE: diplomacy to haggle for a few gold), but my dice are clutch. They won't let my characters die because I guess they like making them stumble around and break bowstrings or something.
Good advice though, even for non-power gamers.
The point of this post (as I read it) was that if you do these things, you aren't power gaming. You are just gaming, like everyone else.
Start with a concept, make that concept as effective as it can be, great!
Start with trying to be as powerful as you can be, complain when your "min" become a problem, try to find loopholes to "win". Fail.
I read the whole thing as a subtle jab at Powergamers. I mean if "...you will be able to pretend you are roleplaying like everyone else" isn't a nice shot at power gamers, I don't know what is.
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I am never sure whether my optimization actually falls under power gaming, but I do stack things in my favor as much as possible without actually min-maxing (I very very rarely dump anything). But that has become much more of a "my dice keep ******* me over" than a "I want to dominate this game" thing.
My groups will tell you, as a player, I have the most ridiculous "luck." I will consistently fumble any time I try to do anything remotely heroic or badass, crit on relatively unimportant skill checks (IE: diplomacy to haggle for a few gold), but my dice are clutch. They won't let my characters die because I guess they like making them stumble around and break bowstrings or something.
Good advice though, even for non-power gamers.
The point of this post (as I read it) was that if you do these things, you aren't power gaming. You are just gaming, like everyone else.
Start with a concept, make that concept as effective as it can be, great!
Start with trying to be as powerful as you can be, complain when your "min" become a problem, try to find loopholes to "win". Fail.
I read the whole thing as a subtle jab at Powergamers. I mean if "...you will be able to pretend you are roleplaying like everyone else" isn't a nice shot at power gamers, I don't know what is.
Shhhh. As Tom Sawyer would say, "I like painting this fence."
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Dont be so pushy at the table. Give advice when asked not because you dont want to carry the party. Keep in mind folks that "helping" less optimized minded folks is a thin line. You can easily go from lending a helping hand to being a Fascist at the table. Another trait gamers tend to not like about Powergamers.
This thread is a great demonstration on compromise not something Powergamers are known for. I am a big proponent of player compatibility. Sometimes though playstyles are just incompatible. The best choice is to leave a group when you reach that point. I know what you are going to say, "but Pan I live in a tiny town with only 3 other gamers!" Time to move on or try internet gaming son. Life is too short for bad gaming.
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if I am a player, ALL the other players are going to have minmaxed characters too, unless they don't let me help, then I couldn't care less how much more powerful my character is. I gave them the opportunity.
So what you're saying is that you do not like the fact that there are other valid play styles than differ from your own, and that the only way for YOU to have any fun is to change their preferred style of play to meet yours, otherwise to heck with them??
Dont be so pushy at the table. Give advice when asked not because you dont want to carry the party. Keep in mind folks that "helping" less optimized minded folks is a thin line. You can easily go from lending a helping hand to being a Fascist at the table. Another trait gamers tend to not like about Powergamers.
This thread is a great demonstration on compromise not something Powergamers are known for. I am a big proponent of player compatibility. Sometimes though playstyles are just incompatible. The best choice is to leave a group when you reach that point. I know what you are going to say, "but Pan I live in a tiny town with only 3 other gamers!" Time to move on or try internet gaming son. Life is too short for bad gaming.
I bolded two parts of your post that I think are really important. Some people don't really have an interest in system mastery. I am fortunate to have a group of friends that decided to game together. We enjoy roleplaying, but it is more about hanging out than simply playing an RPG. I spend more time working on my character (optimizing/powergaming/or whatever term you want to call it) than my friends do. They generally think of a character that they want to play, and they are less interested with changing the concept to make it more effective.
I have been running a game for them for about 6 months now. We have a Paladin that really wanted to dual wield a longsword and a light mace. I offered that a 2 handed weapon would be an easier and more effective way to go, but they were not interested. He had envisioned his character like that, so we went with it. Same goes for the halfling druid and the fighter that wanted a high charisma. This works for this group, because they have similar expectations. They are good roleplayers, but their lack of interest in optimization does not make them so.
I think that you need to find what works for your group. I don't think that every "powergamer" needs to hide their power until a dramatic moment...but that worked for that group (and it remains one of my favorite RPG stories, even though I wasn't even there). For other groups, they do want to learn the ways of optimization, and that is cool for them. I have known groups that are ok having a player power imbalance, but others may feel a need to even out the power level in some way. (The whole debate between rolling stats vs point buy is a good example of this, with passionate players on both sides!)
For me, I will continue to try to find ways of making my characters awesome and effective... as well as fitting in with the group dynamics. This is an awesome hobby, but I agree with Pan, "Life is too short for bad gaming."
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Dont be so pushy at the table. Give advice when asked not because you dont want to carry the party. Keep in mind folks that "helping" less optimized minded folks is a thin line. You can easily go from lending a helping hand to being a Fascist at the table. Another trait gamers tend to not like about Powergamers.
This thread is a great demonstration on compromise not something Powergamers are known for. I am a big proponent of player compatibility. Sometimes though playstyles are just incompatible. The best choice is to leave a group when you reach that point. I know what you are going to say, "but Pan I live in a tiny town with only 3 other gamers!" Time to move on or try internet gaming son. Life is too short for bad gaming.
When I help less skilled gamers at the table, I always ask "What do you want your character to do in combat?" and then I show them feats and spells that lead to that and that synergize.
I always ensure the build is based on their character concept and desires as a player. All I do is show them how to do what they want to do in the best possible way.
Start with trying to be as powerful as you can be, complain when your "min" become a problem, try to find loopholes to "win". Fail.
"They're not loopholes, they're special rules for people who are dedicated enough to do the research!"
No, it's not the first time I've used that quote on these boards; Thank you Jolly R. Blackburn.
Speaking seriously, power-gamers are no problem they just need a power-DM to shine; being stuck across the table from some guy who won't stop telling you that he's "better optimized" than you cause his character is a barbarian and yours is a bard sucks. Like, a lot.
If you consider the people you play with your friends, then whatever, friends give each other hell all the time. If however you play in a gaming group, well, no one ever complained about good manner and politeness.
No one's drinking this milk, right?
"Shhhh. As Tom Sawyer would say, "I like painting this fence."
I love you Naedre. <3
"Shhhh. As Tom Sawyer would say, "I like painting this fence."
I love you Naedre. <3
I'm glad I'm not the only one that picked up the double entendre.
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Powergaming is never an issue on its own. Powergaming when nobody else is, or when the GM can't handle what you bring to the table causes issues.
It also helps to avoid min-maxing. I call it cheating. If your defense falls along the lines of "What is the meaning of "is"", then you sir are probably doing something wrong.
edit:A better example is "but the book doesn't say I can't."
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I don't exactly see how optimizing your stat layout is cheating.
Cheating is, by definition, the breaking of a rule.
PF already has rules on stat distribution (you can't start with a base stat of lower than 7 or higher than 18, unmodified by racial bonuses).
So, yeah, if a guy has a dwarf with a CHA of 4 and a Con of 22 at 1st level, he probably cheated.
If he's at 5 and 20, he's within the rules.
Keeping the play about the adventure and not your character’s combat prowess makes everyones experience better. There are other people at the table and if they are not all optimizing their build don’t punish those players for not delving into every trick that could turn their gnome bard into an encounter breaker.