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I could see dropping the strength down, raising the intelligence to 12 I could agree with, but the charisma of 7 nerfs the ninja ki ability that is the cornerstone of the 16 levels of Ninja he is taking.
Also I was aware of the loss of skilled I mentioned it in the above post with " If you had the advanced race guide you could forgo the feat and skill points to add 2 to con or even dex...".
I suppose I was a bit unclear so I apologize. Honestly I am normally a bit of a grammar nazi and tend to over explain everything but with the sheer number of posts I have been putting out these past 2 days I have gotten a tad bit lazy.
Ah didn't notice that... and the levels of ninja...
STR:15(+2)
DEX:14(+2)
CON:15(+2)13+2
INT:12(+1)
WIS:10(+0)
CHA:15(+2)13+2
*bold is the totals. italics is the human bonuses.
This seems a bit weaker overall but should allow a good distribution to help your character use their variety of abilities...
Sorry for my horrible grammer...
Wow that 7 wisdom is not helping you. Do you guys enjoy killing your allies?
How is my new distribution?
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Are you serious Mergy? The DC caps at 13 with this build for the Will save for Uncontrolled Rage. Furthermore you get to roll every round to come out of it and you attack the nearest creature the first round and have a 25% chance of attacking the nearest creature in follow up rounds IF you continue to fail the save.
In addition it is only with your remaining attacks after killing the opponent (which may be none), you choose your position (dont rage near allies), and warn them ahead of time of what happens when you rage (which happens what one fight a day?). If you are killing allies with this build then you are tactically incompetant, your allies are, or a LOT of really unlucky rolls are going down. If the DC of 13 is too much for you use YOUR build where you drop Ninja for Vivisectionist and have a 7 Charisma then the DC is 10, then get a trait for +2 Will And Iron will for an additional +2, problem solved you need to roll a 6 minus whatever you get from class bonus.
Edit: Oh yeah and raging gives you +2 to will saves. I suppose I should also clarify what trait for other readers. Birthmark a Faith trait gives you +2 to Will saves vs. Charm and Compulsion effects. Confusion is a Compulsion effect.
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Are you serious Mergy? The DC caps at 13 with this build for the Will save for Uncontrolled Rage. Furthermore you get to roll every round to come out of it and you attack the nearest creature the first round and have a 25% chance of attacking the nearest creature in follow up rounds IF you continue to fail the save.
In addition it is only with your remaining attacks after killing the opponent (which may be none), you choose your position (dont rage near allies), and warn them ahead of time of what happens when you rage (which happens what one fight a day?). If you are killing allies with this build then you are tactically incompetant, your allies are, or a LOT of really unlucky rolls are going down. If the DC of 13 is too much for you use YOUR build where you drop Ninja for Vivisectionist and have a 7 Charisma then the DC is 10, then get a trait for +2 Will And Iron will for an additional +2, problem solved you need to roll a 6 minus whatever you get from class bonus.
Edit: Oh yeah and raging gives you +2 to will saves. I suppose I should also clarify what trait for other readers. Birthmark a Faith trait gives you +2 to Will saves vs. Charm and Compulsion effects. Confusion is a Compulsion effect.
I don't think it's the uncontrolled rage that kills you, although the DC capping at 13 when you have a will save of +0 while raging at first level is pretty poor.
What I would be worried about is the dominate person that starts to show up as early as level 4. I can think of two modules where this kind of thing has been thrown at the biggest, toughest damage machine, and with three classes with poor will saves and a -2 wisdom stat, I ask again: Do you enjoy killing your allies?
Azaelas: It's not bad, but I really think the build is too MAD to function at the moment. Something's gotta give, and I would suggest ninja, as it doesn't really bring a lot that vivisectionist isn't already bringing.
If you are killing allies with this build then you are tactically incompetant, your allies are, or a LOT of really unlucky rolls are going down.
I think you need to consider your tactics more. You are going Ninja, which means Sneak Attack, which means flanking, which means being within a 5'-step of an ally when fighting a Medium or Small foe. The whole build is designed around getting lots of attacks, which increases the likelihood you will have a few remaining to whack your flanking partner after your enemy is down. There are strategies that could be used to minimize this danger, but one need not be "tactically incompetent" to be forced into situations where this could be a problem.
Furthermore, you are underestimating the difficulty of your forced Will saves. Even with a trait, Iron Will, and Rage, your (pre-magic) Will save will be +3 until level 7 (Birthmark won't work, as the condition "Confused" is not the same as the confusion spell, and is not a compulsion effect). Rage Mutagen has a good chance of dropping this even lower. When you do get confused, you not only might attack allies but lose all those rounds where you could be helping. Losing two rounds to doing nothing will lower your average DPR even lower than it already is.
Even if you are lucky with Rage Mutagen and Uncontrolled Rage, there is still the fact your Will save is terrible. You are one dominate person away from turning on your allies, or a hold person from being removed from the fight. Even with a Cloak of Resistance and a Headband of Wisdom it is a gaping hole in your defenses, and not something to be taken lightly. I would strongly recommend considering, at the very least, dropping your 18 Strength to a 17 so you don't have to dump Wisdom. If not more substantial measures.
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Haha I just read the confusion spell and it actually can work in my favor. Rounds spent in confusion do not count against numbers of rounds raging for the day (which this build has few of to begin with). There is a 25% chance to do nothing, a 25% chance to do whatever I want to do, a 25% chance to do 1d8+str modifier to myself, and a 25% chance to attack the nearest creature(not necessarily an ally).
So step 1 Drink Mutagen, buff up with potions, pull out second Nodachi and swift invisibility. Step 2 Position self for good attack posistion among a group of enemies. Step 3 Rage full attack, extra attacks from Wild Fighting and Ninja Ki. After enemy dies voluntarily fail your save (if not near allies) and attack other enemies.
As per confusion spell if any enemy deals damage to you they are automatically the next target for attack in lieu of rolling for confusion. So in effect you get free turns of rage if any monster defends themself or attack of oppertunity's you. However you then go on autopilot to kibble them. When enemies start to get scarce or keep their distance you save to break out of confusion. Then you use Raging Drunk to reposition yourself without losing turns of rage. Rinse and repeat.
A GM could potentially nerf this by taking out of game information and having the monsters avoid and ignore your raging 4 armed low AC character. So the effectiveness of this combo is heavily based on the Gamemasters level of Metagaming. If the GM nerfs it just start making saves. Also if ALL the monsters begin beating on you make the save, turn invisible and run like the brave, brave Paladin you are not.
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Mort you bring up some very valid points to consider. Your right Confusion is a status I was under the impression that it was merely a spell. There is a trait that gives +1 to will saves that could be taken in it's stead I guess. As for the flank I have to be very careful to note that enemies are closer than allies which will be difficult I am sure. So I will drop my strength to 16+2 from human for 18 and my Charisma to 10 in order to raise my Wisdom to 14.
With 14 Wisdom I will have a +2 to Will save.
With the trait Indomitable Faith I will get +1 to Will saves.
With Iron Will I will get +2 to Will save.
By Raging I get +2 to Will Saves.
By lowering my Charisma to 10 the DC for Uncontrolled Rage drops to 12.
I will try to get a wisdom increasing item and resistance item ASAP.
So in effect I need to roll a 5 to save from the confusion effect before I get any items or other effects that assist my save. The feat spent on Iron Will is going to sting a bit but I think my Party will thank me in the long run.
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@Mergy When I was originally brain storming this concept I was considering Vivisectionist over ninja. Here are the reasons I chose not to.
By splashing levels of Alchemist any extracts you wanted you can just get wands of anyway.
Ninja has Ki which gives you insane versitility to either add 20 feet to position yourself for a flank, get an extra attack, or turn invisible as a swift action which may open up another sneak attack or get you out of trouble.
Also Ninja's have acess to Weapon training which frees up a feat for weapon focus, Combat Trick which frees up a feat for Two weapon fighting, and Pressure points which lowers their dex in effect lowering their armor class for secondary attacks. Bleeding attacks is not bad either for additional DPS and Shadow clone can be helpful if you are forced to tank for the party.
Alchemist has very few discoveries that accent this build.
Ninja has double the skill points of the Alchemist which allows for low intelligence and still maintaning decent skill use.
Turns you are chugging extracts you are not contributing to combat. Also your extracts only effect you which is a poor substitute for a Wizard who can buff the party.
You could however bump up vivsectionist to level 4 in order to save yourself a feat getting the 4th arm via the Alchemists next discovery. It really depends on how you prioritize skill points and Ninja talent vs. a standard feat for leveling up.
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So I guess the final draft that I have written up is as follows. I will write him up as a pathfinder society compatible character. I also decided to drop Drunken Rager for Fast Movement and I steered clear of Ninja Tricks that Required Ki until I built up a reserve of Ki.
Human who drops bonus feat and Skilled for +2 dex and +2 Strength
Strength 16+2
Dexterity 15+2
Constitution 12
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 14
Charisma 10
Lv.1 Ninja1 -Poison use, Sneak Attack +1d6, takes the feat Iron Will and the Traits Indomitable Faith (+1 Will Saves) and Dirty Fighter (+1 Damage when Flanking)
Lv.2 Ninja2 -Ki Pool, Ninja Trick (Weapon Training-Weapon focus Nodachi)
Lv.3 Alchemist1(Vivisectionist, Rage Chemist) -Alchemy, Extra bombs, Mutagen, Throw anything, Takes the feat Power Attack
Lv.4 Alchemist2 -Discovery (Vestigal Arm), Sneak Attack +2d6, Poison resistance +2, Rage Mutagen,
Raises Strength 1 point
Lv.5 Barbarian1 (Wild Rager) -Uncontrolled Rage, Fast Movement, Takes the feat Two-Weapon Fighting
Lv.6 Barbarian2 -Wild Fighting, Rage Power (Reckless Abandon)
Lv.7 Ninja3 -No trace +1, Sneak attack +3d6, Takes the feat Extra discovery (Vestigal Arm)
Lv.8 Ninja4 -Uncanny Dodge, Ninja Trick (Rouge Talent-Combat Trick-Improved Two-weapon fighting), Raises Strength 1 point
Lv.9 Ninja5 -Sneak attack +4d6, Takes Feat Extra Rouge Talent-Ninja Trick (Pressure Points)
Lv.10 Ninja6 -Light Steps, No trace +2, Ninja Trick (Fast Stealth)
Lv.11 Ninja7 -Sneak Attack +5d6, Takes Feat Double Slice
Lv.12 Ninja8 -Improved Uncanny Dodge, Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick), Raises Dexterity 1 point
Lv.13 Ninja9 -No trace +3, Sneak Attack +6d6, Takes Feat Extra Ki
Lv.14 Ninja10 -Master Trick (Invisible Blade)
Lv.15 Ninja11 -Sneak Attack +7d6, Takes Feat Improved Critical (Nodachi)
Lv.16 Ninja12 -No trace +4, Master Trick Evasion, Raises Dexterity 1 point
Lv.17 Ninja 13 -Sneak Attack +8d6, Takes Feat Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Lv.18 Ninja14 -Master Trick (Feat-Extra ki)
Lv.19 Ninja15 -Sneak Attack +9d6, No Trace +5, Takes Feat-Extra Ki
Lv.20 Ninja16-Master Trick Ghost Step, Raises Dexterity 1 point
He caps with 16 Ki, +15+10+5 for BAB
Base Saves cap at Fort+11 Ref+13 And Will+5
When all is said and done when he goes “Nova” his Attacks will look like this (assuming he is Enlarged, and Hasted at the time and Flanking so an un-realistcally ideal scenario). No magic items of any sort are included in this. Magic weapons and a strength increasing item would substantially increase these values. Also a pair of Brilliant Energy Nodachi's would negate the majority of the AC that would be encountered. Also note if Greater Invisibility is in effect then opponent is denied dexterity bonus to armor class further lowering his AC.
+11 to hit via strength +1 from weapon focus +1 to hit via reckless abandon +1 via haste +2 from Flank +31/+26/+21 total
Primary Attacks +21/+21/+21/+21/+20/+15 Secondary Attacks +21/+20/+10
Primary attacks- Damage 2d8 ,+9d6 sneak attack, +12 power attack, +1 trait, +16 strength (added 50% because of 2 hands), 1 dexterity damage per hit (may lower AC for other attacks in chain).
Secondary attacks- Damage 2d8, +9d6 sneak attack, +8 power attack, +1 trait, +11 strength (Double slice), 1 dexterity damage per hit (may lower AC for other attacks in chain).
Edit:If greater Invisibility is in effect while dual weilding brilliiant energy Nodachi's the opponent does not get Armor, sheild, or dexterity to armor class. So misc. bonuses such as dodge, Deflection, natural armor, and luck bonuses are pretty much all they would have.
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I think my above attack progression is a bit off. I was up late last night and I guess the fatigue clouded my math. Assuming he is lv.20 with all the above bonuses in effect he has 3 standard attacks at +31/+26/+21. Therefore his attack bonuses would actually look like this...
Primary +25/+25/+25/+25/+20/+15
Secondary +25/+20/+15
If anyone notices any discrepencies in my calculations please let me know. I am calculating a -6 to attack from Wild fighting and Two-weapon Fighting without a light off-hand weapon.
Another point I am curious about is the wording of fighting with 2 handed weapons. It states on page 141 of the core rulebook that if you weild a weapon with two hands you get 1 and a half times your strength bonus to damage. With Vestigal Arms you use Two-weapon fighting (as opposed to the far superior IMO Multi-weapon fighting) but how do you determine if the off hand gets half strength or 1 and a half strength for using two-hands? The rules seem unclear so all my math assumes the worst of the possible 2 rulings. However if it goes with rules as written I suspect you would actually do compareable damage with the "off-hand" Nodachi and the Double Slice feat would be unneccesary.
At Lv. 20 what is his B.A.B.?
15 B.A.B. doesn't seem right... hmm oh well. To bad you only get additional attacks based off B.A.B... or do you?
hmm might not be PFS legal but might could use it in a home game:
the multi-weapon attack feats from the Bestiary? Use Wakizashi and attack with 4 blades.
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15 B.A.B. doesn't seem right... hmm oh well. To bad you only get additional attacks based off B.A.B... or do you?
hmm might not be PFS legal but might could use it in a home game:
the multi-weapon attack feats from the Bestiary? Use Wakizashi and attack with 4 blades.
15 B.A.B. is accurate albeit 1 less then I would Ideally like. At Base Attack 6, 11, and 16 you get an additional attack due to a high base attack bonus. Also this build gets additional attacks from spending Ninja ki, as well as the Wild Fighting ability of the Barbarian Archetype it uses, and an additional from haste. Ki and Wild Fighting are the only two abilities I have found that stack with the extra attack from haste.
I did a final check on the list of all the abilities that are pathfinder society legal and it turns out the Wild Rager Barbarian Archtype is not. So great build for a home game but not good for PFS. I would probably just go normal Barbarian or even Mobile fighter in its place for PFS. Otherwise a pretty solid build, everything else is legal. Note instead of Extra bombs it turns out the Vivisectionist get either skill focus Alchemy or skill focus Knowledge nature in place of Brew potion.
The Vestigal arm discovery that gives the extra arms specifically state that you have to use Two-weapon Fighting otherwise I would be wielding a Katana and 3 Wakazashi's with Multi-weapon fighting. Using the extra hands to assist in wielding 2 handed weapons is the most effective thing you can really do with them other than holding a sheild or a wand in the spare hands for a turn where you need AC or Magic.
Say hello to the raging sneak attack!
Hulk take Body Bludgeon and try to sunder floor!!!
Anyone else think hulk is a Master Chemist with char and int dump stats?
Say hello to the raging sneak attack!Hulk take Body Bludgeon and try to sunder floor!!!
Anyone else think hulk is a Master Chemist with char and int dump stats?
I second this.
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15 B.A.B. doesn't seem right... hmm oh well. To bad you only get additional attacks based off B.A.B... or do you?
hmm might not be PFS legal but might could use it in a home game:
the multi-weapon attack feats from the Bestiary? Use Wakizashi and attack with 4 blades.
15 B.A.B. is accurate albeit 1 less then I would Ideally like. At Base Attack 6, 11, and 16 you get an additional attack due to a high base attack bonus. Also this build gets additional attacks from spending Ninja ki, as well as the Wild Fighting ability of the Barbarian Archetype it uses, and an additional from haste. Ki and Wild Fighting are the only two abilities I have found that stack with the extra attack from haste.
I did a final check on the list of all the abilities that are pathfinder society legal and it turns out the Wild Rager Barbarian Archtype is not. So great build for a home game but not good for PFS. I would probably just go normal Barbarian or even Mobile fighter in its place for PFS. Otherwise a pretty solid build, everything else is legal. Note instead of Extra bombs it turns out the Vivisectionist get either skill focus Alchemy or skill focus Knowledge nature in place of Brew potion.
The Vestigal arm discovery that gives the extra arms specifically state that you have to use Two-weapon Fighting otherwise I would be wielding a Katana and 3 Wakazashi's with Multi-weapon fighting. Using the extra hands to assist in wielding 2 handed weapons is the most effective thing you can really do with them other than holding a sheild or a wand in the spare hands for a turn where you need AC or Magic.
Recently they released a rules update for Pathfinder Society. So for those of you who were planning on using a variant of my build for Society play Vivisectionist is no longer legal. Honestly I agree with the nerf but that is just my opinion. Happy gaming!