Has the moving at less than full speed come up yet?
I feel like it should.
Also, Perception is like THE BEST skill in the game. The only reason to not have ranks in it is if the creature is such a moron he doesn't have skill points. If he's trying to sneak past multiple creatures, all it takes is one success on their parts to ruin his day.
Stealth...really isn't problematic. At all.
Some might also point out you need cover or concealment to hide behind/in, but I always hated that rule. People sneak up on other people w/o anything to hide behind all the freaking time in real life.
I'm sure this has been ask a hundred times in a hundred diffrent ways but I need some clarification. Rogue in the party has a stealth skill of say 14ish I think...its insane usually rolling around 25 so nothing ever sees him. Everywhere he moves...and I mean everywhere he uses stealth. Since they cant detect with perception he can get behind and sneak attack. The short of this is...how is this dealt with?
If he is going to make the first attack against the foe, and the foe does not notice him through opposed perception rolls (the character's sneak VS the creature's perception), then he receives normal sneak attack damage bonus on the first strike only.
(Loosely) Following the RAW, If the rogue wants further sneak attacks, he must either flank with a friendly target (another PC, usually) which can be countered through Anti-Flanking feats, or use the Feint tactic to catch the creature flat-footed, while also gaining sneak attack benefits. (I say loosely because I don't know the exact specifics.)
Personally, I would have the rogue become adept at using the Feint skill, since it is pretty important for a rogue to hit more consistently, as well as include sneak attack damage within all of their attacks.
I hope that helps! :)
but as a rogue his stealth is very high 18 dex..bonuses as class skill ect ect..so like I said 25 average rolls really. So perception doesnt always cut it.
Depends on what creature(s) you guys are facing, and what level you guys are. How he reaches a total of 14 (or higher) for his modifier is important, since how it's done could be messed up.
On a side note, the Sneak skill is important for ambushes and navigating through dungeons/caves/whatever. It's a nice skill to get the jump on your foes, giving your enemies flat-footed penalties for the surprise/starting round(s); however, he should think about using the Feint skill, since it would help him constantly receive those bonuses during combat (and provide them for his allies).
For the RAW, that's how it works for Sneak Attack damage during combat; if the character gets the jump on that target during the encounter, he receives Sneak Attack damage, if he is flanking with a friendly creature/target, he receives Sneak Attack damage, if he successfully feints the target, he receives Sneak Attack damage, while also regarding the target's AC as if it were flat-footed.
What you guys have for house ruling (in regards to a Sneak check allowing Sneak Attack damage during combat, or whatever), or what you guys interpret the rules implemented in the book, I have no idea, but as far as RAW is concerned, that is (basically) how it's interpreted.
So, he's sunk a lot of character advantages into being a Stealth monster. Fair enough, that's a valid use of attribute and skill points.
Is he moving at half his speed or less? If not, -5 penalty applies to his Stealth rolls. Is he facing creatures with Tremorsense or Blindsight? If he is, he's likely screwed. (Throw a couple of Earth Elementals at the party, for kicks, just to prove that he's not always going to annihilate the Perception roll of things he faces). Is he in plain view? If he is, using stealth is effectively impossible.
Stealth is only game-breaking if the GM let's the player get away with using it all the time, in circumstances where it can't be used. But, having said that, he should get use out of it, just as the fighter should get to use his combat feats, the wizard should use his spells, and the bard should use his Perform skill.
Its actually really hard to sneak up on targets with a melee attack. There is the -5 for moving full speed and the moment the rogue doesn't have cover he's seen instantly.
Also don't worry about the rogues damage, fighter and other melee types can just charge and kill the target and don't need stealth or surprised se or flanking.
But you find when you understand the stealth rules hell have lots of problems getting to the bad guys.
Its actually really hard to sneak up on targets with a melee attack. There is the -5 for moving full speed and the moment the rogue doesn't have cover he's seen instantly.
Also don't worry about the rogues damage, fighter and other melee types can just charge and kill the target and don't need stealth or surprised se or flanking.
But you find when you understand the stealth rules hell have lots of problems getting to the bad guys.
Some of the stuff may be house-ruled, and that plays a big part in overestimating, or underestimating, skills.
The RAW does say the characters get penalties for moving full speed (though if you're rolling 25 for Stealth a good portion of the time and are not getting caught, it must be acceptable for the level), but there are also penalties in regards to creatures' vision, and their position. If they are facing away from your position, their perception can be limited as per the DM's discretion, and the rules they implement and rules stated in that regard.
I believe a Rogue's utility for damage is important, and if they can constantly pull that off with flanking and/or feinting, it makes them that much more powerful, and useful as an asset for the group other than a guy to opens doors and unlocks treasure chests. (Yes, it's useful, but it's not an absolute requirement.)
A simple tripwide with a bell attached is a common trap when making camp in hostile territory (or territory where the hostiles may pop up).
He'll spot and avoid some, of course. Being the Rogue.
So, he's sunk a lot of character advantages into being a Stealth monster. Fair enough, that's a valid use of attribute and skill points.
Is he moving at half his speed or less? If not, -5 penalty applies to his Stealth rolls. Is he facing creatures with Tremorsense or Blindsight? If he is, he's likely screwed. (Throw a couple of Earth Elementals at the party, for kicks, just to prove that he's not always going to annihilate the Perception roll of things he faces). Is he in plain view? If he is, using stealth is effectively impossible.
Stealth is only game-breaking if the GM let's the player get away with using it all the time, in circumstances where it can't be used. But, having said that, he should get use out of it, just as the fighter should get to use his combat feats, the wizard should use his spells, and the bard should use his Perform skill.
On that note... elementals are immune to crits and sneak damage. He can sneak up on them all he wants.
There are plenty of classes with uncanny dodge (like barbarian). He'll have a hard time with them.
A swarm.
How about bigger things that can't be one shotted. He can sneak attack and prompty get swallowed.
There are a lot of things that counter a sneak based rogue. If he maxed out stealth, he'll get a lot of mileage out of it for the first few levels. Afterwords, I really hope he spread around his talent a bit, because he will find things that stealth or sneak attack are going to be less effective against.
He will also get it in the second round if he wins imitative, and they are flat footed until they act, so if he has multiple attacks he can get it with all of them.
If he is going to make the first attack against the foe, and the foe does not notice him through opposed perception rolls (the character's sneak VS the creature's perception), then he receives normal sneak attack damage bonus on the [i]first strike only
Rules question: wouldn't all the attacks during the sneak attack have sneak attack damage because the opponent is still flat-footed?
I'm assuming he probably has the Rogue trick fast stealth which allows him to move at full speed while being Stealthy. My character has it. My stealth is fairly ridiculous as well however I have been foiled a few times by one thing...creatures with scent ability. They don't rely on sight.
25 isn't that bad depending on the level of course... I have a 16th rogue with a base score of 30. usually rolls in the 40's or something...
Lights, inititative, scent, spells... lots of things get through Stealth. He does pretty good with his first round, but seriously... after THAT he's usually back to 'base weapon damage' D8+6 while the raging Barbarian ranger who's insta enemying has done 350+ in one round...
Some things don't need nerfing ;)
At best he should only be able to kill one guy outright in that encounter.
If he is going to make the first attack against the foe, and the foe does not notice him through opposed perception rolls (the character's sneak VS the creature's perception), then he receives normal sneak attack damage bonus on the [i]first strike onlyHe will also get it in the second round if he wins imitative, and they are flat footed until they act, so if he has multiple attacks he can get it with all of them.
Rules question: wouldn't all the attacks during the sneak attack have sneak attack damage because the opponent is still flat-footed?
I apologize on that, you would be correct in that statement, as the combat is simultaneous, and the creature wouldn't have been able to react by that point.
If all of the attacks are performed during the Surprise/First round of combat (before the others react), then yes, the rogue would still have all of his sneak attack benefits.
If by all attacks, you mean attacks from other characters besides the rogue, then no; unless there is a class feature/ability that allows the rogue to grant the Sneak Attack ability to all friendly allies within so and so feet, or something similar to that effect, the ability is only applied to the rogue, not the other classes.
25 isn't that bad depending on the level of course... I have a 16th rogue with a base score of 30. usually rolls in the 40's or something...
Lights, inititative, scent, spells... lots of things get through Stealth. He does pretty good with his first round, but seriously... after THAT he's usually back to 'base weapon damage' D8+6 while the raging Barbarian ranger who's insta enemying has done 350+ in one round...
Some things don't need nerfing ;)
At best he should only be able to kill one guy outright in that encounter.
Rogues aren't supremely useless after the first round of combat. The thing about a Rogue is that they need to rely on their party members and use special abilities, as well as tactics, to effectively deal damage in combat.
Their Sneak Attack damage is balanced enough due to its single-targeting power, and can be active in combat in more than one way. (Of course, look at who I'm explaining the rules to...oh, the irony of it all.)
There are multiple ways to counter stealth, but there are so many diverse things; there should be logical, unique ways for them to counter it, and I believe stealth is something that should be fairly easy to counter, because a constant sneak during the middle of combat is pretty lame (*hint hint Elder Scrolls hint hint*).