Is Zen Archer a no brainer as a one level dip for every Archer?

[Dragonamedrake]

So I was looking at Zen Archer and I noticed the FAQ conserning Flurry of blows...You add your Monk level plus your Base Attack from any other class to determine what your flurry of blows is at. So lets take a level 20 Fighter (Archer Archetype) vs a level 19 Archer Fighter/1 Zen Archer Monk.Straight Fighter would get Rapid shot, Multishot, and 4 attacks from BAB.

+18(x2)/+18/+13/+8/+3

Now compare that to the Fighter/monk. He cant Rapid or Multi but...

+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3

On top of that you Wis to AC(if unarmered),+2 to all saves, Perfect Strike Feat, Unarmed Strike, and a Bonus Archer Feat. If you decide to take a second level you get another bonus archer feat, another +1 to all saves, and evasion.

Loosing weapon master kinda stinks but thats at 20th level, and really is worth loosing for an additional 2 attacks. Personally I dont see how this isn't almost a no-brainer. And thats a Fighter. One of the strongest Archer builds in PF. Take a look at Inquisitors, Bards, Magus...

A Bard 20 would have Rapid + 3 shots.
A Bard 19/Monk1 would have 7 shots.

Am I reading this wrong? What am I missing?

[Captain Netz]

Flurry of blows only uses your Monk level for BAB. Not sure where you are getting Monk level + Other class level BAB.

[Michael Sayre]

Dragonamedrake wrote:

So I was looking at Zen Archer and I noticed the FAQ conserning Flurry of blows...You add your Monk level plus your Base Attack from any other class to determine what your flurry of blows is at. So lets take a level 20 Fighter (Archer Archetype) vs a level 19 Archer Fighter/1 Zen Archer Monk.Straight Fighter would get Rapid shot, Multishot, and 4 attacks from BAB.

"Condensed for space"
A Bard 20 would have Rapid + 3 shots.
A Bard 19/Monk1 would have 7 shots.

Am I reading this wrong? What am I missing?

Flurry of blows gains utility as you gain monk levels-

Flurry:

Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

You'd only gain one extra attack from the dip, which would be canceled out by your loss of Rapid Shot and worsened by your inability to use Manyshot. You wouldn't gain by it, really, you'd lose.

[trhvmn]

Captain Netz wrote:

Flurry of blows only uses your Monk level for BAB. Not sure where you are getting Monk level + Other class level BAB.

Actually, he's right. Here's the FAQ he was talking about.

[Dragonamedrake]

Ssalarn wrote:

Dragonamedrake wrote:

So I was looking at Zen Archer and I noticed the FAQ conserning Flurry of blows...You add your Monk level plus your Base Attack from any other class to determine what your flurry of blows is at. So lets take a level 20 Fighter (Archer Archetype) vs a level 19 Archer Fighter/1 Zen Archer Monk.Straight Fighter would get Rapid shot, Multishot, and 4 attacks from BAB.

"Condensed for space"
A Bard 20 would have Rapid + 3 shots.
A Bard 19/Monk1 would have 7 shots.

Am I reading this wrong? What am I missing?

Flurry of blows gains utility as you gain monk levels-

** spoiler omitted **

You'd only net one extra attack from the dip.

So are you saying that Fighter 19/Monk 1 would only get a +18/+18... that doesnt seem to add up either. Im not saying your wrong. Its just confusing.

[Dabbler]

No, what Captain Netz means is that you get the BAB but not the additional attacks.

Monk 1/Fighter 19 can only get one extra attack in a Flurry for +18/+18/+13/+8/+3, because at level 1 a monk only gets one extra attack in a flurry of blows. What's more, you can't combine this with Rapid Shot and Multishot, so your monk 1/fighter 19 archer is worse off than a monk 20 or a fighter 20 with the feats.

Genberally speaking, the Zen Archer is about the best archer build you can get, just on it's own.

[Michael Sayre]

Dragonamedrake wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

Dragonamedrake wrote:

So I was looking at Zen Archer and I noticed the FAQ conserning Flurry of blows...You add your Monk level plus your Base Attack from any other class to determine what your flurry of blows is at. So lets take a level 20 Fighter (Archer Archetype) vs a level 19 Archer Fighter/1 Zen Archer Monk.Straight Fighter would get Rapid shot, Multishot, and 4 attacks from BAB.

"Condensed for space"
A Bard 20 would have Rapid + 3 shots.
A Bard 19/Monk1 would have 7 shots.

Am I reading this wrong? What am I missing?

Flurry of blows gains utility as you gain monk levels-

** spoiler omitted **

You'd only net one extra attack from the dip.

So are you saying that Fighter 19/Monk 1 would only get a +18/+18... that doesnt seem to add up either. Im not saying your wrong. Its just confusing.

Yeah, you only get the benefit of the first Two-Weapon Fighting feat, so one extra attack. You'd add your Fighter BAB (+19/+14 etc) to your Monk Flurry, modified as though by the first TWF feat. So you'd end up with a full attack while flurrying of +18/+18/+13/+8/+3, like a fighter who only took the first TWF, and you wouldn't be able to Rapid Shot or Manyshot.

**EDIT** Ninja'd by Dabbler.

[Dragonamedrake]

Alright that makes a whole lot more sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Michael Sayre]

Dragonamedrake wrote:

Alright that makes a whole lot more sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

On a side note though, if you want a rocking archer with a good mix of fighter and monk abilities, check out the Sohei. At 6th level you gain Weapon Training like a fighter and the ability to flurry with a bow if you choose it for your weapon training, and that Archetype contains none of the restrictions on Rapid Shot and Manyshot that you find in the Zen Archer. Plus you can share your ki abilities with your mount, so that's cool.

[Captain Netz]

trhvmn wrote:

Captain Netz wrote:

Flurry of blows only uses your Monk level for BAB. Not sure where you are getting Monk level + Other class level BAB.

Actually, he's right. Here's the FAQ he was talking about.

Don't know how I read that the first time thinking it was the other way around. My bad.

[Dragonamedrake]

Ssalarn wrote:

Dragonamedrake wrote:

Alright that makes a whole lot more sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

On a side note though, if you want a rocking archer with a good mix of fighter and monk abilities, check out the Sohei. At 6th level you gain Weapon Training like a fighter and the ability to flurry with a bow if you choose it for your weapon training, and that Archetype contains none of the restrictions on Rapid Shot and Manyshot that you find in the Zen Archer. Plus you can share your ki abilities with your mount, so that's cool.

Thanks. I will take a look at that.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not really worth the dip. You still have -1 BAB when it comes time to qualify for feats, and that sucks.

And since flurry doesn't stack w/ rapid and manyshot, your basic level flurry will eventually be inferior to rapid + manyshot anyway, so that's a wasted class feature.

If you can stand being LG, dipping Divine Hunter paladin for 1 level is much better. You get free Precise Shot, full BAB, and smite 1/day. Which, since smite lets you completely ignore DR, is useful wven w/ only a +1 damage bonus. Of course, 2 levels will get you cha to all saves, too.

[Corlindale]

I actually play a paladin with a zen archer dip (currently Monk 1/Paladin 10), so here's my two cents:

I went into the build knowing it wasn't optimal. As others have said, you lose out on one attack by losing Manyshot, which hurts a bit (but not much, not as if you don't have lots of attacks anyway). It was actually part of a deliberate attempt to scale back my sheer killing power in favour of more versatility.

There are plusses too, of course.

Potentially it saves you a ton of feats, which is nice if you play a feat-starved archer class (like Paladin). I get Precise Shot for free, I don't need Rapid Shot and I can't use Manyshot - that's 3 more feats to spend on fun stuff. Technically I could also have skipped Point Blank Shot, but I figure I want Improved Precise Shot eventually (and incidentally it kinda sucks that I can't take it until level 13).

It gives Perfect Strike too - you won't have many uses per day, but in that crucial battle it could still make a difference.

It also gives you lots of extra class skills, which can be handy for some classes (my Paladin certainly likes Acrobatics as a class skill).

And finally, it gives you a huge boost to all saves, which is helpful for all classes.