the folks in question causing the offense are people I do not know at all and thus I really don't feel it would be my place to say anythingWhether you know the person or not should not be a factor.
That is, to me, like saying that you don't feel it's your place to tell the guy in front of you at a movie to stop talking because you don't know him... and beyond that, if your only hiccup is that you don't know the person, go say hello, introduce yourself, chat a bit - and tell them politely about their odor/behavior that is causing a disruption in your enjoyment of a public place.
I don't disagree on the general notion of trying to speak up if something bothers you, but there's certain issues where no, as a stranger, I am not going to take on the responsibility of correcting another person's behavior.
Part of it is--it's not that I'm afraid of being impolite, it's that I am pretty certain the person in question WOULD NOT LISTEN TO ME.
Remember we're talking about a group of people--the particular subculture of players in that store--who are fairly insular, don't like outsiders, get mad when we just dare to sit at an empty table next to them while they're playing a game.
That I'd interrupt their Magic game to say, "Dude, you stink," -- that is not going to get me the desired outcome. (And I'm certainly not going to wait for them to finish, smelling the offensive persons all the while.)
Taking into account the specific circumstances of the situation, I think it's a situation where it really would come best from the manager or one of his staff. Unfortunately, the manager who used to be around all the time and very open to suggestions is never around any more.
I've been in other situations where I do speak up to strangers when their behavior IS affecting more than just the odor in the room. Often, no matter how polite I try to be, no matter how placating and understanding, I am met with hostility.
For example, I take a shuttle service to work. Unlike the public buses, people usually line up to get on the bus when it arrives, so it's very fairly first come, first served. That doesn't stop some people from trying to zoom in from the side and cut in line. Sometimes someone hasn't taken the bus before and doesn't realize there's a line, other times people know exactly what they're doing and are being jerks about it. Because it can affect someone's ability to get to work on time--if someone's been waiting for 15 minutes and someone cuts them off at the last minute and gets the last spot on the bus, that's not fair.
So I've often spoken up, but tried to be as gentle as possible. "Excuse me, are you aware of the line?" or "Hi, maybe you don't know, but the line starts here and ends back there." Sometimes if someone's trying to cut directly in front of me I'll be more curt, and I think rightly so.
A rare few times, someone has apologized and thanked me for pointing out the time. Usually the interlopers yell at me or try to pick fights, again, no matter how hard I try not to be b$&**y about it. One man called me rude for not letting him cut in front of me. Another woman tried to start a shouting match on the bus (and continued her behavior).
People don't want strangers telling them what to do. You, you're a stranger to me, you're telling me what to do, you don't know me, you don't know my circumstances or aren't taking them into consideration, and I'm probably not going to take your advice. I'm a stranger to you, refuse to evaluate my full pov because of that, and you will probably continue to see me in the wrong. Welcome to the world.
You could just be crude, and while sitting near the magic players, just speak up in a non-specific, generalized observation like "Ew, what the hell is that smell? Ugh, it smells awful over here, did someone crap themselves?" Say it plainly so that the magic players can definitely hear you.
That way you aren't directly confronting them, but the seed is definitely planted in their heads, if they hear you. People have a tendency to listen in when they think someone else is talking about them, so the chances of them paying particular attention are pretty good.
At the FLGS where we meet, there are a lot of M:tG players, as well as a lot of Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh players (and very few of them young kids). I can't speak to their smell, but they do tend to be the loudest and most vulgarly speaking groups there. And then there's the group of Chinese kids who get into screaming matches with each other in Mandarin. Oy.
Irony.You're on watch.
Aye. Aye. **Salute**
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You could just be crude, and while sitting near the magic players, just speak up in a non-specific, generalized observation like "Ew, what the hell is that smell? Ugh, it smells awful over here, did someone crap themselves?" Say it plainly so that the magic players can definitely hear you.
That way you aren't directly confronting them, but the seed is definitely planted in their heads, if they hear you. People have a tendency to listen in when they think someone else is talking about them, so the chances of them paying particular attention are pretty good.
No, thank you. I appreciate your trying to help but that kind of passive aggressive communication isn't communication at all. It's hateful and cowardly and encourages spitefulness from afar rather than dealing with something directly (or just avoiding it, when appropriate). I've never seen behavior like that end in anything but hatefulness on both sides. I try very hard not to behave like that.
The manager needs to be talked to in this situation. I've just been unable to be in touch with him. But I am not looking for any suggestions, thank you, my earlier post was just venting. Again, I know you're trying to help, but I am not seeking help. Thank you again for meaning well.
The thing about stereotypes is they are or were true at one point. Someone did observe the behaviors that lead to the stereotype, and a bunch of other people to go "I know, right?!" when spoken to about the stereotype to perpetuate it.
One guy doesn't start a stereotype. A lot of people do. They don't become stereotypes with out many people agreeing about them. It's basicly a concensus about bad observed behavior. That's the nature of this particular beast, and why that beast is hard to kill.
The thing about stereotypes is they are or were true at one point. Someone did observe the behaviors that lead to the stereotype, and a bunch of other people to go "I know, right?!" when spoken to about the stereotype to perpetuate it.
One guy doesn't start a stereotype. A lot of people do. They don't become stereotypes with out many people agreeing about them. It's basicly a concensus about bad observed behavior. That's the nature of this particular beast, and why that beast is hard to kill.
Or the application of popculture.
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You could just be crude, and while sitting near the magic players, just speak up in a non-specific, generalized observation like "Ew, what the hell is that smell? Ugh, it smells awful over here, did someone crap themselves?" Say it plainly so that the magic players can definitely hear you.
That way you aren't directly confronting them, but the seed is definitely planted in their heads, if they hear you. People have a tendency to listen in when they think someone else is talking about them, so the chances of them paying particular attention are pretty good.
No, thank you. I appreciate your trying to help but that kind of passive aggressive communication isn't communication at all. It's hateful and cowardly and encourages spitefulness from afar rather than dealing with something directly (or just avoiding it, when appropriate). I've never seen behavior like that end in anything but hatefulness on both sides. I try very hard not to behave like that.
The manager needs to be talked to in this situation. I've just been unable to be in touch with him. But I am not looking for any suggestions, thank you, my earlier post was just venting. Again, I know you're trying to help, but I am not seeking help. Thank you again for meaning well.
At least I denoted it as crude up front. It is a brash and rude gesture, but no less rude than hogging table space or failing to keep up one's hygiene. Sometimes people that stink like that have become so used to their own smell, that they simply cannot smell it anymore, sort of like someone working at a paper mill or garbage recycling station; they just tune it out. Sometimes a broad hint might make them take a moment and check themselves.
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Wow, I feel like I've wandered into a CBS After-School Special.
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Wow, I feel like I've wandered into a CBS After-School Special.
Dear Princess Celestia,
Today I learned that it's important not to judge other ponies/kobolds based off of their hobbies. Sure, I might have met a few MTG players who talked too much trash, and I may have met a couple Pathfinder players who never bathed. But that's only a small percentage! When I consider the overall community, I just encounter normal ponies/kobolds like myself. Ponies/kobolds who would have been my friends if I had been more open-minded, and less rooted in the silly opinions of rival hobbyists.Your faithful student,
Twilight Sparkle/Kobold Cleaver
I didn't say stereotypes were deserved in all cases. I commented on how they come about. Not all people who may fall into a stereotype actually fit the stereotype, or are deserving of them. Some folks fit them to a T, hence why they perpetuate.
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So...this thread is about telling other people how to act, or is it about how less socially moronic ttrpg-ers are than ccg-ers? Because, um, really, dorks are dorks, doesn't matter what they play. And ten seconds at any con should bear that out. Of course, I've played Magic exactly once in my life, so my exposure to that crowd is limited. But, from what I've seen, they don't talk any more trash than I've seen in other competitive endeavors.
And, frankly, I talk cash s#@+ if I'm playing b-ball, Madden or tiddlywinks, and I have amazing social skills. Hell, I'm downright charismatic. One has nothing to do with the other.
If you're going to play a competitive game, grow thick skin or go home.
Well one thing that's important to consider is that competitive games bring out different aspects of someone's personality than cooperative ones. As a past league official for competitive first person shooters, I can tell you that competitive geeks can be every bit as jockish as competitive athletes.
At its core, MtG is a competitive past time whereas D&D has a stronger focus on cooperation. That's not to say that competition is bad, mind you, simply that it fosters a different atmosphere than a cooperative one. For those who are accustomed to and prefer one over the other, however, being exposed to the other can definitely be a culture shock.
I will agree with HD though that attending a con will reveal that geeks will be geeks and that well-adjusted social behavior is a tenuous concept across many geek sub-cultures — ours included. Three words: The Milk Thread™.
So...this thread is about telling other people how to act, or is it about how less socially moronic ttrpg-ers are than ccg-ers?
I realize now that I came across as mostly just bashing Magic players, but I meant to convey a more positive message: The D&D forums sometimes make it seem as if D&Ders are hopeless, but we're not.
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would you say the same if a guy gave some girls grief about being a better cook?I've actually done that, so, yeah, I would! The thing is, there's a difference between good-natured sassing of people you're basically friends with (I assume that, like D&D, you wouldn't play this Magic game with people you actively disliked), vs. doing it to be a dick. From the OP's quotes, I read it as the former.
There may be regional differences here, too. I'm a Yankee. Where I'm from, the amount you trash-talked with someone was directly proportional to how good a friend that person was. So if a stranger said something I didn't agree with, I might keep quiet, but if my best buddy said the same thing, I might reply with "What are you, high on something?" It's been a great effort for my wife (a Southern belle) and I to adjust to each other's expectations -- when I met her, she insisted that everyone always talk in a ridiculously polite, roundabout manner, so that it took at minimum 20-30 minutes just to ask what she wanted for dinner, and even then she'd only tell me what she thought I wanted, never ever what she actually wanted -- because the entire purpose of conversation was not to exchange information, but to avoid potentially offending people.
Don't you just hate that. 'Just tell me already!'
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So...this thread is about telling other people how to act, or is it about how less socially moronic ttrpg-ers are than ccg-ers? Because, um, really, dorks are dorks, doesn't matter what they play. And ten seconds at any con should bear that out. Of course, I've played Magic exactly once in my life, so my exposure to that crowd is limited. But, from what I've seen, they don't talk any more trash than I've seen in other competitive endeavors.
And, frankly, I talk cash s#+% if I'm playing b-ball, Madden or tiddlywinks, and I have amazing social skills. Hell, I'm downright charismatic. One has nothing to do with the other.
If you're going to play a competitive game, grow thick skin or go home.
I trash talk playing magic all the time. I trash talk playing it with my kids.
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Wow...several branches of this conversation is getting heated. You know, when I get in this area...and I do more than I care to admit....I try to remind myself of something. As a spiritual person I tell myself...Judge not lest ye be judged...for wherewith you judge another, so do you condemn yourself. Yeah, I know. Those are scripture references, which is not to say that one point of view is better than another. It's merely a reminder. See...they simply remind me of something I know as a counselor...that we tend to criticize others on aspects that we don't like about ourselves.
For instance, it tears me up when I hear people lose their temper and I think man...how rude. But, I'm hot-tempered and emotional my own self...and even years of training doesn't completely negate it. In public, I tend to turn down my nose to people who litter and I'm careful to clean up after myself, but honestly...I'm no housekeeper...and my negligence shows there. Even if it doesn't look exactly the same, the attribute holds true. We unconsciously condemn what we don't like about ourselves, by finding others guilty of the same things.
Humanity, as a whole is so complex. Combine it with community nuances and individual eccentricities....simply no end. There are so many factors...game mechanics, crossing cultures, societal nuances, personal preferences, individual struggles and desensitizations and misperceptions.
We are gamers...through our shared hobby we train ourselves for cooperation and tolerance...kudos to us. Let's keep those kudos....and maybe the next time we are at a cut-throat tournament...a smelly store...etc. we can remember...we can set the example. Is there a stink? Next time come dressed to impress...make it a habit when entering that environment. Or others dissing their opponents? Start complimenting and encouraging...it's contagious. We can have an effect. Don't like stereotypes. Don't just look, act and speak the game. Sprinkle your conversation with sports, education or current events. Wear a top that isn't a T-shirt or maybe change your hair to something trendy. Remember, it all starts with you. Complaining about others or a situation may shock a person to change temporarily, to achieve true, lasting changes comes from example, confidence and consistency.
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Wow...several branches of this conversation is getting heated. You know, when I get in this area...and I do more than I care to admit....I try to remind myself of something. As a spiritual person I tell myself...Judge not lest ye be judged...for wherewith you judge another, so do you condemn yourself. Yeah, I know. Those are scripture references, which is not to say that one point of view is better than another. It's merely a reminder. See...they simply remind me of something I know as a counselor...that we tend to criticize others on aspects that we don't like about ourselves.
For instance, it tears me up when I hear people lose their temper and I think man...how rude. But, I'm hot-tempered and emotional my own self...and even years of training doesn't completely negate it. In public, I tend to turn down my nose to people who litter and I'm careful to clean up after myself, but honestly...I'm no housekeeper...and my negligence shows there. Even if it doesn't look exactly the same, the attribute holds true. We unconsciously condemn what we don't like about ourselves, by finding others guilty of the same things.
Humanity, as a whole is so complex. Combine it with community nuances and individual eccentricities....simply no end. There are so many factors...game mechanics, crossing cultures, societal nuances, personal preferences, individual struggles and desensitizations and misperceptions.
We are gamers...through our shared hobby we train ourselves for cooperation and tolerance...kudos to us. Let's keep those kudos....and maybe the next time we are at a cut-throat tournament...a smelly store...etc. we can remember...we can set the example. Is there a stink? Next time come dressed to impress...make it a habit when entering that environment. Or others dissing their opponents? Start complimenting and encouraging...it's contagious. We can have an effect. Don't like stereotypes. Don't just look, act and speak the game. Sprinkle your conversation with sports, education or current events. Wear a top that isn't...
Eh, trash talk is part of the fun in competitive endeavors. The only line I draw is with kids on x-box live when I'm playing PvP Call of Duty or something. "F@#" is unacceptable trash talk. As are racial epithets. Other than that, "you suck", "go home and get some skillz N00b", etc, are part and parcel of the experience, imo. Most geeks are, shall we say, athletically challenged, so they probably didn't get much exposure to serious trash talk in their younger days, and tend to be hypersensitive. Sorry if mommy coddled them growing up, but don't step on the court if you can't bring the noise. Or take it.
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So...this thread is about telling other people how to act, or is it about how less socially moronic ttrpg-ers are than ccg-ers?I realize now that I came across as mostly just bashing Magic players, but I meant to convey a more positive message: The D&D forums sometimes make it seem as if D&Ders are hopeless, but we're not.
Actually, D&Ders are pretty hopeless. Pathfinders, on the other hand...
;-)
Nearly 1.5 pages of this stuff and nobody has posted a link to the Geek Hierarchy yet?
Color me astonished!
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So...this thread is about telling other people how to act, or is it about how less socially moronic ttrpg-ers are than ccg-ers?I realize now that I came across as mostly just bashing Magic players, but I meant to convey a more positive message: The D&D forums sometimes make it seem as if D&Ders are hopeless, but we're not.Actually, D&Ders are pretty hopeless. Pathfinders, on the other hand...
;-)
*groan*
Just what this thread needs; an edition battle!
;-)
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Some of us D&Ders may be introverted, lacking in confidence, awkward, or whatnot...but we've got nothing on the Magic crowd. On a Magic forum where I mostly lurk, a player posted this question (paraphrased):
. . . . /QUOTE]
Most people don't realize that playing a D&D game is a social event. Bar none. :) We socialize around the gaming table. :)
The op makes an interesting point I've been a gamer for over 30 years and I've played most thing including MtG
Which was a fun way to pass an hour or two but not a patch on role playing.
But I have witnessed on several occasions players making comments on how powerful there deck is and how many rare cards they have, and a lot of the time it came down to players with money made killer decks
I think what finally killed my interest in ccg's was one gen con I was sat in the bar having a swift half (which is brit speak for having about 6 pints) when two guys sat next to me one of them put 3 magic cards on the table
The other guy looked at them and then started counting out money. I stopped count when it went past 300 quid
It was just silly money which I think show the mindset of some card players they take it all far to seriously
I'm not socially awkward, I'm socially indifferent.
I just can't be arsed with social niceties. When I speak, you get my brain unfiltered.
The op makes an interesting point I've been a gamer for over 30 years and I've played most thing including MtG
Which was a fun way to pass an hour or two but not a patch on role playing.
But I have witnessed on several occasions players making comments on how powerful there deck is and how many rare cards they have, and a lot of the time it came down to players with money made killer decks
I think what finally killed my interest in ccg's was one gen con I was sat in the bar having a swift half (which is brit speak for having about 6 pints) when two guys sat next to me one of them put 3 magic cards on the table
The other guy looked at them and then started counting out money. I stopped count when it went past 300 quid
It was just silly money which I think show the mindset of some card players they take it all far to seriously
Ugh, I know. The money that's involved with Magic can get insane!
I call one of my on-again-off-again projects "Magic: the Balance." It's basically a set of standardized rules for players to write and print their own cards. The idea is to avoid all the power creep and the excessive costs, though of course the project is in a perpetual state of development. :)
On the rare occasion when I play M:tG nowadays, it's with proxies 'cause I won't start throwing money down the Magic toilet again.
PS: How high a tolerance would I need to drink a swift full? ;)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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But I have witnessed on several occasions players making comments on how powerful there deck is and how many rare cards they have, and a lot of the time it came down to players with money made killer decks
I think what finally killed my interest in ccg's was one gen con I was sat in the bar having a swift half (which is brit speak for having about 6 pints) when two guys sat next to me one of them put 3 magic cards on the table
The other guy looked at them and then started counting out money. I stopped count when it went past 300 quid
It was just silly money which I think show the mindset of some card players they take it all far to seriously
When I used to play, most of my energy went into two things: designing decks that made optimal use of less expensive cards (i.e., commons and dollar-bin "junk rares"), and finding ways to "trade up" and get more value into my decks/collection than what I put into it (monetarily).
At one point, my primary deck was worth over $300 but with me having invested less than $40 into getting the cards for it. I was pretty happy with that fact. ;)
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Okay...so the girl with the golden deck as spoken about in the M:tG post paraphrased here...hmm. I keep thinking on the social aspects of this.
Certain CCG players can sometimes fall into the mentality of dominance over others through the competitive nature of the game. (Not that I haven't known AD&D players like that...) She might have put up a defense against that, possibly by being just as aggressive in her dealing with that group. I've seen it happen enough to know it's not uncommon.
Then again, she might just love the card game so much that she wants to help--albeit wrapped in a kind of rudeness--the people she sees as maybe not being as serious about the game. I've seen that happen fairly regularly too.
Personally I respect the girls who adapt; I've BTDT. I get their plight. But it just makes me thrilled beyond words to be playing a game that's got such a culture of inclusion for players who aren't just Caucasian heterosexual males!
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The funniest thing I see in the OP isn't that the chick talked s*!! while beating her friends into submission, it's that the poster on the M:tG forum wasn't complaining about her talking trash, he wanted to beat the crap out of her deck, presumably so he could let out a well deserved "in yo face!".
I hate to say this again, but normally adjusted people often talk trash in competitive environments. The fact that this bugs the "socially awkward" may be part of why they are socially awkward.
So, I'm going to go on record as thinking M:tG players must me LESS socially awkward than TTRPGers. Because they seem to be having a lot of fun talking trash and whatnot.
(I've actually added two games to my lifetime total, to do research for this thread and to have fun with some cool new people I met. Trash was talked constantly, even by me, new guy, and much laughter and fun was had.)
Not unlike a typical New Yorker or German!
Hah! Yeah, I know that Germans often seem rude to Americans, as polite small talk seems to be very much ingrained for many Americans. Germans are usually more to the point, even curt. Time is money seems to be the idea behind that.
Mind you, these are stereotypes as well, and you will find as many small talking Germans as curt Americans. In the example above, most Germans would probably also refrain from directly telling strangers in a game store that they stink. But something along the lines of "Pooh! Whats that smell in here?" might be quite possible, as this behaviour is quite common - passive-agressive, as it is called in the US.
Hah! Yeah, I know that Germans often seem rude to Americans, as polite small talk seems to be very much ingrained for many Americans. Germans are usually more to the point, even curt. Time is money seems to be the idea behind that.
I find it refreshing, because I'm very much that way myself.
Last time I was in Austria, immediately upon arrival in Vienna I decided I needed coffee and a struedel. I went to the pasty counter at Meinl's and was at first taken aback when the woman at the counter snapped "Ja bitte!" in a no-nonsense tone. Then I smiled to myself. "I feel like I'm home!"
I always thought the Austrians were a bit more soft-spoken overall. But then, this is obviously a stereotype also. It is a matter of taste, but overall, I like the no-nonsense kind better than obviously fake friendliness, which is thought by many over here to be american style. Honestly, I don´t need a store clerk or cashier to ask my how I am, as it doesn´t really interest him anyways. That doesn´t mean that people, especially store clerks, cashiers or servers, should be unfriendly or rude (if they are, they might have the wrong job). But more than "Hello" "Goodbye" and "Have a nice day" is just not necessary, and many people would be irritated or even upset if a server started some small talk.
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Hah! Yeah, I know that Germans often seem rude to Americans, as polite small talk seems to be very much ingrained for many Americans. Germans are usually more to the point, even curt. Time is money seems to be the idea behind that.I find it refreshing, because I'm very much that way myself.
Last time I was in Austria, immediately upon arrival in Vienna I decided I needed coffee and a struedel. I went to the pasty counter at Meinl's and was at first taken aback when the woman at the counter snapped "Ja bitte!" in a no-nonsense tone. Then I smiled to myself. "I feel like I'm home!"
I see I have stayed true to my heritage. :)
Of all the German speaking folk I've met, German Swiss have been the nicest, Austrians the douchiest. Germany Germans have been pretty cool, too, but the Swiss just rock the house.
You are lucky that you (probably?) speak english with them. If the Swiss people talk German, it can be very hard to understand them.
I see I have stayed true to my heritage. :)
Heh. Your last name does indeed read very german.
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Of all the German speaking folk I've met, German Swiss have been the nicest, Austrians the douchiest. Germany Germans have been pretty cool, too, but the Swiss just rock the house.You are lucky that you (probably?) speak english with them. If the Swiss people talk German, it can be very hard to understand them.
Dude, we have enough regional dialects in this country that sometimes you can't understand someone who grew up over the next mountain.
All yanks sounds alike to me. ;-p
W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie.
Please, don't try to say that too quickly.
--Polish is lots easier to say in cyrilic, just saying. It looks mad in Roman.
W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie.
Please, don't try to say that too quickly.
But..but...vowels. Where are all the vowels?
