GM Fiat rule > all. Also, when creating a custom item, not only go by the table but compare the resulting item to any other pre-existing, yet similar item and price accordingly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any item not in the book is subject to GM pricing. That table is only a guideline. The book even says that. In short it is always GM Fiat no matter whether he follows the table or not.
For the purpose of this discussion I am assuming GM Fiat to equal "you can't reasonably assume that 99% of all GM's will give you the exact same ruling."
Rule 0 also allows GM Fiat so even if the "guideline" wording was not in the magic chapter he can still shut you down.
Even if Rule 0 was not written in any book, the GM is responsible for gameplay, and often gets blamed when things go wrong. That alone should allow him to make such decisions.
Everything custom is "DM-approval only". A DM can say rings of constant greater invisibility simply don't exist in his world, just like he can say monster A or PrC B don't exist in his world.
Besides, there are lots of existing items that don't follow the magic item pricing tables. For one reason or another (often game balance), the designer of the item thought it should have a lower or higher price than the table would produce, and priced it accordingly.
Also note that the magic item creation table is set up as a guideline to help the DM make magic items... not to help players make their own magic items. It is in the game master portion of the book in my opinion and not the front of the book with more player orientated material.
Players can feel free to browse and make "what-if" magic items. But the DM for that campaign and world will always have 100% say in what can be made or not be made and then decide if he will set it at a price in line with the table, with other magic items of comparable power, or vastly higher or lower then the given price.
You may want to re-read the item creation rules. There are modifiers for continuous or use activated items based on the duration of the effect.
That greater invisibility ring you mentioned actually costs 4 * 7 * 4 * 2000 = 224,000g, which seems pretty reasonable to me, especially given the number of creatures that can see through invisibility, and the ease of removing it or penetrating it with casting.
And that Giant Form ring costs 13*7*2*2000 = 364,000g. If a 20th level character wants to spend almost half their wealth for a few stat bonuses and to make it take two rounds instead of one to coup de grace them, who's stopping them?
The whetstone is a clever idea. I might implement something like that into one of my campaigns; seems like an awesome way for a society to raise a well equipped militia quickly.
ALL custom items are strictly at GM discretion, like custom spells. There's no such thing as a custom item that doesn't involve "GM Fiat".
Costly cleric scrolls, e.g. resurection raise dead restoratzion, created or simply bought with razmiran priest archetype sorceror lev9+ in party (can activate scrolls without material expenses).
If I'm understanding you correctly, that's just how the class works. A Razmiran Priest can just buy a vanilla Cleric scroll and use it over and over again by using his slots. It's pretty much the same deal as Alchemical Allocation.
There's no way to disallow this other than not allowing your players to buy scrolls, (though, that won't stop a PC Cleric from creating the scroll and giving it to the Priest,) or by house-ruling the ability.
Any item not in the book is subject to GM pricing. That table is only a guideline. The book even says that. In short it is always GM Fiat no matter whether he follows the table or not.
Rule 0 also allows GM Fiat so even if the "guideline" wording was not in the magic chapter he can still shut you down.
This. I agree completely with Wraith on this. Rule 0. If the DM doesnt want it, its his right to say no. Expecially conserning Custom Magic items, which specifies DM discretion.
By the way, there are a number of unwritten rules that magic items follows.
One is "Never have a ring of greater invisibility."
Another is "If you pass 200k as the market price, you can't make it with Craft Wondrous Item."
And "Multiple similar abilities is meant for staves".
The GMG goes into some pretty nice advice too.
GM Fiat or Rule 0 is just cheat by lazy and/or dictatorial GM. Is like a Deus ex Machina for a story.
As well as the sane GMs.
GM Fiat or Rule 0 is just cheat by lazy and/or dictatorial GM. Is like a Deus ex Machina for a story.
Here we go with another generalizer. Maybe you like swords that have a +20 to hit for under 10,000. The rest of us probably don't.
As well as the sane GMs.
I'm not sure about that, for me a sane GM, would come to terms with the player and not impose his will just becuase is the GM like an autocracy. I'm more in favor of GM is only the narrator and discussion of rules must involve all.
GM Fiat or Rule 0 is just cheat by lazy and/or dictatorial GM. Is like a Deus ex Machina for a story.Here we go with another generalizer. Maybe you like swords that have a +20 to hit for under 10,000. The rest of us probably don't.
Well I like play at high levels that is true but I always try to play by RAW the rules, so no I not like swords +20 for 10,000 it will cost 8,000,000 GP market price
Well I like play at high levels that is true but I always try to play by RAW the rules, so no I no like swords +20 for 10,000GM Fiat or Rule 0 is just cheat by lazy and/or dictatorial GM. Is like a Deus ex Machina for a story.Here we go with another generalizer. Maybe you like swords that have a +20 to hit for under 10,000. The rest of us probably don't.
I only posted that because going by that chart and not using GM Fiat you can get a true-strike sword for about 8000 gp. :)
It is one of the well known abuses of following the chart exactly, which is why I mentioned it.
Personally, I don't like GM Fiat either when used to make "insta-houserules". I think the player should be given a warning(at least a week if possible), to prepare for any house rules. If you change something later that nerfs him, the player should be given the option to change his character if the character is rules legal.
As well as the sane GMs.I'm not sure about that, for me a sane GM, would come to terms with the player and not impose his will just becuase is the GM like an autocracy. I'm more in favor of GM is only the narrator and discussion of rules must involve all.
We have very different opinions on what a GM is.
I am a big fan of the item creation rules and allowing the players to make their own unique gear. That said, first they do need to use what's there correctly (as Aratrok mentioned).
Second, as others have mentioned, that section of the book is explicitly GM-discretion, moreso than the rest of the game. Letting the players use the table as-is isn't actually RAW. RAW is get your GMs permission first, compare to existing prices second, use the table to make a guess as a last resort. (I don't quite agree with that, but it is RAW.)
There are no rules written for making custom items. There are guidelines on how a DM may price custom items should someone create them.
In the same way there are no rules for making sevenassed monkeys but guidelines on how to put a CR on them and how to balance them.
A player has no more right to a ring of permanent invisibility than it has to a seven-assed monkey.
Also note that the magic item creation table is set up as a guideline to help the DM make magic items... not to help players make their own magic items. It is in the game master portion of the book in my opinion and not the front of the book with more player orientated material.
... except that the magic item crafting feats are right up front in the "player-oriented" stuff.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As well as the sane GMs.
Imo, no GM is sane: being willing to put up with PC hijinx is the sign of a broken, broken mind...
@carn, first, I agree with your main point, I think. I personally feel that the item pricing table could be cleaned up enough that they could remove the "GM only" warnings and just let the item crafters have at it.
That said, for item crafters, RAW is they can only make what's already in the books and what the GM lets them make beyond that, and it's supposed to be the GM's job to work out what a particular idea is going to cost. If the GM says it will cost 100,000 gp and the table says 10,000 gp, well, GM wins by default.
Basically, the warning is "GMs: Don't allow players unlimited access to this." Again, not something I exactly agree with, but it is what it is.
A player has no more right to a ring of permanent invisibility than it has to a seven-assed monkey.
Just as a player has no more right to play an alchemist.
More like the right to play a class he made up himself using GM guidelines for balancing new classes, if you want a perfectly apt analogy.
Or, seeing as there are actually rules for this, a spell he made up himself.
A player has no more right to a ring of permanent invisibility than it has to a seven-assed monkey.
Just as a player has no more right to play an alchimist.
Edit: When a player wants to play an alchimist and the GM allows it, the class description and so on gives the information the char is supposed to be based on. Its not necessariliy balanced, what one derives from these, so GM might opt or adjust something.
When a player wabts to create an item and the GM allows it, the magic item creation guidelines give the information the item is supposed to be based on. Its not necessarily balanced (with higher probablity), what one derives from these, so GM might opt to adjust something.
There is no difference, except a much bigger warning sign.
Actually, there is a difference. While I agree that a player has no "right" to play an alchemist if the DM wants to run a campaign without such (though I think it's nice of a DM to try to incorporate all wishes by a player that could reasonably coexist with the DM's idea of the world), the game still has a basic assumtion on that alchemists will be played according to the rules that govern alchemists.
The basic assumtion is that if a DM says "we'll start a campaign now", all written classes will be allowed and all/most rules that are written will be used - if something differs from that, it will be (or should be) stated by the DM.
In any case where there are no rules governing something, it's completely up to the DM - there are no actual rules to fall back on.
If someone wanted to play a character that permanently transforms into an angel as the game progresses, there are no rules for that and it's completely up to the DM to determine if they want to create a class that fulfills this, and how they want to do it. The DM can, but the game designers, and players in general, shouldn't _assume_ that this class will exist.
If someone wants to play a seven-assed monkey, there are no rules that allow a player to design something like that. Most players and designers assume seven-assed monkeys will not be a (major) race in a pathfinder game. A player can't just say "I want to be a seven-assed monkey, look, it follows the bestiary's CR by HD guidelines, GIMME GIMME". Creating monsters - and custom races - is completely within the hands of the DM. The DM actively has to say "in this game there will be seven-assed monkeys that you can play" or a player has to ask "I want to play a seven-assed monkey, could I do that?" and have the DM allow it.
There are guidelines for determining how much CR a certain homemade creature should have and how to work when designing one. That doesn't mean a player can design monsters and assume they are standard in this game, nor does it mean pathfinder as a game assumes these creatures will exist. Likewise, there are guidelines for determining how much gold a certain homemade magic item should be worth and how to work when designing one. That doesn't mean a player can design magic items and assume they are standard in this game, nor does it mean pathfinder as a game assumes all these items will exist.
About the true strike sword, isnt that against the rules as written?It seems from the factors of constant items (e.g. *4 for round spells) that a spell needs a duration of rounds, minutes, 10 mins or hours to be made into use-activated, constant item. Duration of true strike is "see text". From the text duration can be derived as "next attack" or "single attack role".
There are no written rules on custom item design.
But, if a DM designed such an item and compared it to the table, the price would be 2000*1*1=2000. And it's not a constant item (as that would only work once ever, it's a use-activated one (that might activate by beginning to swing the sword but before the attack). If you compare a Bracer of Mage's Armor and Shield to the table, it's 3000-3500 gp (depending on if you view them as similar or different abilities) that grants a +8 bonus to AC (half armor, half shield) as well as immunity to Magic Missile.