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Hi!
I've started an advice thread on the Treesinger druid and the plant wild shape ability (here: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz63o9?Treesinger-druid-and-plant-wild-shape). But I also have some rules questions for the board. So here we go :)
Do you ever get the scent or tremorsense special abilities when wild shaping via Plant Form?
The Phycomid (Bestiary II, p. 201) has a ranged Touch Attack that causes acid damage - is this an ability that is provided by Plant From I? If it is - do you then add 1½ times your strength modifier to the damage? The Seaweed Leshy has a ranged attack (water jet), which is not a tocuh attack, but specifically says that you do not add str to dmg.
Most of the Leshys has a ranged attack that causes 1 dmg and then has a special effect. I'm guessing that Plant Form I lets you do the attack, cause 1 dmg (sometimes +str), but that the special effect does not happen?
Uh - and I forgot a question:
Can you wear armor (and use weapons) in Plant Form? As per the rules for "Armor for Unusual Creatures" (CRB, p. 153), it seems that you can use armor, but that it'll cost twice the price.
It is called out under the archetype, that your plant companion cannot use armor and cannot use a weapon, but that restriction does not seem to effect the druid, and it is not stated anywhere in the plant form spells or in the paragraph on polymorph.
...can I then use armor as a Phycomoid (Bestiary II, p. 210) - they are described the following way: "This tangle of purple-capped mushrooms growing out of a nasty green sludge shudders and writhes, wafting tendrils of smoke." Do I make little helmet caps for my mushrooms? :)
How about for the Cerebric Fungus? - "A swollen, brainlike bulb encrusted with fungal shelves squats atop several ropy legs. A wide mouth bisects the bulb’s crown."
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You gain only the abilities listed in the Plant Shape listed. so those would only include:
darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, constrict, grab, poison, DR, regeneration 5, trample and any resistance up to 20 plus being vulnerability if the shape is.
Armor question: Since your equipment melds with you, you would either need armor with the "Wild" property or set the custom armor down, then wildshape, then spend a minute putting it on. That said, the rules on armor do not consider plants at all, so that would totally be up to the DM. I would say that unless it is a solid form, like a treant, it would be a no-go. You would be better off just having wild armor that protects in both forms rather than maintain two sets, with one of those sets being a hassle.
Hi Shar and thanks for the replies.
I was thinking of having a squire (or another adventurer) help me with the armor. I would think that a lot of the armor-restrictions would/should be based on common sense here. But I'm still interested in RAW for and against anyway, as I'm thinking mostly of PFS play.
About Plant Form - then I guess I agree. I was just not certain about stuff like scent and tremorsense, as the polymorph rules state that;
"In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability
of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead."
And then the Plant Form I spell states:
"If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain
the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, constrict, grab,and poison. If the form you assume does not possess the ability to
move, your speed is reduced to 5 feet and you lose all other forms of
movement."
So it's quite explicit about the abilities, but not about the movement types gained. I guess that means you gain all movement types - but only the listed abilities. I just had to wrap my head around that.
One question on the abilites though - The Phycomids only form of attack is a ranged touch attack that causes acid damage. Is this attack then available? It is both listed as a special ability and as an attack (the only attack).
Plant Shape 1 says you only get abilities that the form has if that ability is in this list: "darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, constrict, grab, and poison".
You also replace your movement with the plant form's listed movement. If the form has no listed movement, you can still get 5 feet of movement a round. So if a harpy druid turns into a treant, she loses her normal flying ability and instead gets the movement options of a treant.
You would not get the spore or the acid abilities as they are not on the list of abilities allowed by Plant Shape, so it seems like Phycomid may not be a good choice.
So do you retain your sight as a Phycomid? Phycomids are blind but have blindsense.
The basic polymorph rules say you get the creatures natural attacks - but how are they defined? Is it only melee attacks? The Phycomid has an attack listed under "offense" which is it's acid. Is this a natural attack? I can see how we would all say no, as it's not natural to us - but it's natural to the Phycomid.
@beej67 - the Phycomid isn't blind (at least, that's not stated anywhere in its description) and it doesn't have blindsight - it has tremorsense. So I guess you'll be able to "see" when you are one (even though it sure doesn't have eyes...).
But the Phycomid seems to be a bad choice to Wild Shape into. I'm still not certain about it's attack though. I'm certain that there are no other effects from the acid than pure damage - but I'm not certain if you, as a player that has Wild Shaped into one, should get to make the acid touch attack or not. Is there a definition of natural attacks? Or a definition of an acid attack as not being "natural"?
No one?
...I would actually think that the Treesinger was more popular.
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Plant shapes have always been subpar because of the lack of abilities listed in the description. No plants have real common abilities like trample, slam, etc. For natural attacks, I believe RAI, that means physical melee attacks with natural appendages. The only plant I have seen as viable would be Treant, but even then, you are better off as an Earth Elemental for the beats and stats
I think you may be right Shar - but I think a lot of people like the flavor of the Treesinger :) And I really think that it's not that subpar, if you choose the right form.
I've made a thread on the advice forum, where I list some possible forms with Plant Form I - remember for the Treesinger, this is available from level 4. I think the Mandragora (and possibly the Violet Fungus or the Cerebric Fungus) are actually quite viable to use at that level. I don't know how well they match up at around lvl 7,8 or 9 though...
Mandragora (Bestiary II, p. 185)
Small; Low-light vision; Speed 40 ft., burrow 10 ft., climb 40 ft.; Reach 5 ft. / 10 ft. with slam; 3 natural attacks: 1 Bite (1d6+str+grab) and 2 Slams (1d4+str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to supernatural darkness
Treesinger Druid, stats at lvl 4 in Mandragora form:
(Base stats: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8)
Armor: Dragonscale Breastplate (+6 AC, 1400 gp for plant form version)
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Size: Small; Speed 40 ft., burrow 10 ft., climb 40 ft.
AC: 22 (10 base + 1 size + 3 natural + 2 dex + 6 armor) (w/barkskin: 24)
HP: 40
Attack Bonus: +7 (3 bab + 1 size + 3 str); Attacks: 1 bite +7 (1d6+3+grab), 2 slams +7 (1d4+3) /w PA: 1 bite +6 (1d6+5+grab), 2 slams +6 (1d4+5)
CMB: +6 (+10 grapple)
Stealth: +4
Has there been any update to this? As it currently stands, Plant Shape is terrible without some leniency from your GM. It really needs the movement speeds, senses, and special attacks clarified.
Also, the Treesinger class Wild Shape ability lists that you can assume the form of a tiny plant at level 10, but there are no tiny plants (unless Beastiary 4 added any that I don't know about) or rules for tiny plants in the Plant Shape spell.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Do you ever get the scent or tremorsense ... Plant Form?
Phycomid ... ranged Touch Attack ... provided by Plant From I?
do you then add 1½ times your strength modifier to the damage?
Seaweed Leshy ... do not add str to dmg.
Leshys ... that the special effect does not happen?
Can you wear armor (and use weapons) in Plant Form?
If Plant Shape I/II/III don't give you Tremorsense or Scent, then you don't.
If the thing is listed in Melee or Ranged attack section, and isn't a manufactured weapon (Longsword) then you get the attack.
You never add STR to Ranged attacks unless it says to do so, and then only 1x unless it says otherwise.
Plane Shape Seaweed Leshy wouldn't add STR to Damage, if it says not to do so.
If the form has a listed ability you don't get it unless in Plant Form. So something that does 1 damage and "bloody mess" with an ability Called "Bloody Mess (Ex)" in abilities, you wouldn't get Bloody Mess, but would deal 1 damage.
Whether you can wear armor depends almost entirely on GM, as there are not any rules directly disallowing it. The only rules allowing it are "unusual armor" for things like monstrous humanoids and horses. Your mileage may vary.
The last post Necro'd this, but since I play a Treesinger, I figured I'd respond to the OP's questions.
It really needs the movement speeds, senses, and special attacks clarified.
there are no tiny plants
What isn't clear?
If no tiny plants exist, then you can't be a tiny plant until one is printed.
That was more of an observance than a complaint. If any future Beastiaries list tiny plants, then the Treesinger just has another ambiguous problem to deal with.
I'm currently playing a Treesinger too, and it's difficult (and frustrating) to have to get house rules for all of this. Unless they really intended Plant Shape and Treesingers to be substantially weaker than their counterparts.
EDIT: Has there even been an FAQ request for the Treesinger or Plant Shape in regards to movement, senses, and abilities?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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it's difficult (and frustrating) to have to get house rules
Treesinger or Plant Shape in regards to movement, senses, and abilities?
What house rules?
What Movement, senses and abilities are not clear in the rules?
I'm playing one and I don't have the issues you suggest, and I'm not running with a single house rule. I'd be welcome at any PFS table or any home game out the box the way I'm running mine. So I'm trying to find out how you think there is a need of house rules.
it's difficult (and frustrating) to have to get house rules
Treesinger or Plant Shape in regards to movement, senses, and abilities?
What house rules?
What Movement, senses and abilities are not clear in the rules?
I'm playing one and I don't have the issues you suggest, and I'm not running with a single house rule. I'd be welcome at any PFS table or any home game out the box the way I'm running mine. So I'm trying to find out how you think there is a need of house rules.
Plant Shape doesn't specify movement types, limit speeds, or grant senses/abilities as Beast Shape does. So, many people have ruled that you aren't granted these abilities when you Wild Shape into them (like in this post).
Here's an example:
Let's say you want to Wild Shape into a Phantom Fungus - a medium-sized plant. By RAW, if using the exact wording of Plant Shape even at level 20, here's what you end up with:
Phantom Fungus (Bestiary III, p. 219)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft.; 1 natural attack bite (2d6)
By RAW, you do not gain the the climb speed, tremorsense, or blindsight of the Phantom Fungus, because Plant Shape doesn't specify the abilities as Beast Shape does.
Phantom Fungus (Bestiary III, p. 219)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; 1 natural attack bite (2d6)
By RAI, you would gain the climb speed (which the Polymorph rules seem to imply), but you still wouldn't gain the other senses. In fact, no matter what plant creature you Wild Shaped into, you could never have scent (Beast Shape I), blindsense/blindsight (Beast Shape III), tremorsense (Beast Shape IV), or jet (Beast Shape IV) - all of which are abilities possessed by currently published plant creatures that you can Wild Shape into.
For reference:
Phantom Fungus (Bestiary III, p. 219)
Medium; Low-light vision, Tremorsense, Blindsight; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; 1 natural attack bite (2d6)
I recently played in a campaign where a DM ruled that our Druid was blind in a certain plant form because the plant didn't have visual senses and Plant Shape doesn't grant alternate senses. It's one of the reasons I was hesitant to play a Treesinger, but my DM house-ruled the movement types/speeds and gave me some of the senses.
I've had to deal with this as a GM, and as far as I can tell you should get any of the natural attacks that are not listed as Special Attacks (or Special Qualities). You'd also get the attacks listed there that are on the plant shape I/II/III list of course.
On Movement:
. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.
It looks like the bolded two lines are independent of the "if the form grants..." section. So you at least can move at the base speed of the plant. And if you are swimming (or burrowing???) you can breathe, even if the spell isn't granting the movement rates.
On Movement:
. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.It looks like the bolded two lines are independent of the "if the form grants..." section. So you at least can move at the base speed of the plant. And if you are swimming (or burrowing???) you can breathe, even if the spell isn't granting the movement rates.
This has been addressed in almost every other thread I searched when looking for an answer on this. Basically, it's why I divide RAW and RAI on this discrepancy.
By RAI, it seems like Plant Shape should grant movement speeds and senses, or at least that the authors assumed we would check the Polymorph description and infer that it does.
By RAW, you get neither. I guess, by RAW, we could say that you can breathe while swimming or digging, but you'd have to make swim checks or find a shovel.