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In order to prevent further thread derailing in the Magus thread, I'd like to move the conversation here instead.
The question I posit to the community is this: Do you view Paladins as being useless outside of combat scenarios?
Keep in mind that I'm leaving the question purposefully vague, and I would like posters to explain why they believe their opinions. I will refrain from jumping in on this thread until a little later on, though I'm fairly certain most people know where I stand.
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I don't view any class as being particularly useless anywhere as a whole; it all depends on how they are built. Paladins generally have a good Cha which can be useful in a social situations, and healing and restorative abilities to help with diseases, poisons, and other adverse conditions. Physical skill DCs and Cha-based skill DCs don't get so high that Paladins will continually need to have max ranks in skills to be effective in them, so they are free to spread a few around.
If you optimize him only for combat, then yes, he'll be useless in any other situation.
I will say that mono-classing a well rounded Paladin is harder than with most other classes. The lack of skill points, class skills, and bonus feats is tough to overcome. I suspect that's why so many Paladins are human. Level-dipping with Ranger or Bard can make a big difference.
Any clever player can shine out of combat. But I know you are referring to mechanical support out of combat. I would recommend a 12 int and spreading around skill points as much as possible. Also, although your spell list is smaller than a primary caster's, you can still study that list and be diverse in what you prepare.
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I think the high CHA does a pretty decent job of giving him at least a few out of combat options. Low skills is a bit of a bummer, but certainly not insurmountable. Having a paladin in the party can be useful in some social interactions for the Detect Evil too, since you can get a feel for what's wrong in Adventuretown. If the courtroom is seething with evil, the party knows what's up. As long as you don't have someone playing your paladin as a party-wiping Leroy or complete imbecile who can't pick the time and place of his battles, paladin's can be a great social resource to a party in addition to their combat roles.
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You can easily play a Paladin with quite a lot of out-of-combat utility. In the folowing ways:
1. Detect Evil - Handy in roleplaying situations as well as combat. Knowing that Evil folks are untrustworthy is exceedingly handy.
2. Lay on Hands - Being able to heal people is a great way to make fiends and influence people. Many GMs may ignore this...but they really shouldn't.
3. Skill List - While Paladins have crappy skill points, their actual skill list is quite good containing a number of useful skills and serving to make Paladins who put some investment into it worthwhile. Assuming more than 2 skill points per level (either Int 12+, some Favored Class investment, or being Human) you can max out Diplomacy and Sense Motive, making a solid face character, and still put a few ranks in other stuff as necessary.
4. Spell List - While vastly less so than a Cleric, Paladins do have a number of spells with non-combat applications.
And all that leaves aside the actual roleplaying that a player can do with any character to make them awesome and effective out-of-combat.
Are Paladins as out-of-combat useful as a Bard or Rogue? No. Are they more so than a Fighter? Probably. Than a Barbarian? Maybe. It's all a matter of the particular Paladin and who they are beingg compared to.
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And they are PALADINS. That alone should give great weight to their out-of-combat uses. One of the few classes that are almost as well-defined in character as they are in the game rules. And they are known to be Lawful Good, truthful, righteous, and directly favored by the gods. No amount of Charisma or ranks in Diplomacy is going to match the sheer weight carried by that.
Good common folk will line up for their blessings, come to them to arbitrate all manner of problems. Goodly kings will stop and listen to their words, while evil kings will tremble and placate them. Good churches fling wide their doors and prepare warm welcomes, oppressed people come to them in secret.
Paladins, if played as obvious paladins, tabard, holy symbols, etc, should be reacted to. Even if those around him are skeptical, he can prove his status pretty easily with lay on hands, or a spell. They aren't a typical fighter, or a cleric, they are something truly special.
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I'm curious how in a game such as this an entire class could somehow render itself only useful in combat in a mechanical sense? They'd have to have some kind of class feature that only allows them to be played in combat and then it forces the player to leave the room until called on again, which sadly is how I think is a minority of people try to play the game. :(
More seriously, they've got magic, they've got healing, they've got a role playing hook in their oath and they've got a decent enough skill list. Mechanically the class has plenty of noncombat abilities. Anything beyond that is based on the player.
And they are PALADINS. That alone should give great weight to their out-of-combat uses. One of the few classes that are almost as well-defined in character as they are in the game rules. And they are known to be Lawful Good, truthful, righteous, and directly favored by the gods. No amount of Charisma or ranks in Diplomacy is going to match the sheer weight carried by that.
Good common folk will line up for their blessings, come to them to arbitrate all manner of problems. Goodly kings will stop and listen to their words, while evil kings will tremble and placate them. Good churches fling wide their doors and prepare warm welcomes, oppressed people come to them in secret.
Paladins, if played as obvious paladins, tabard, holy symbols, etc, should be reacted to. Even if those around him are skeptical, he can prove his status pretty easily with lay on hands, or a spell. They aren't a typical fighter, or a cleric, they are something truly special.
Exactly. And don't forget that Paladins are also the tip of a very dangerous spear. They are hunters of unholy monstrosities and the first, and sometimes last, line of defense. Unlike Inquisitors or Clerics, who can usually find a good reason to hang around a peaceful community, Paladins are driven to find, confront, and destroy the darkness. Seeing one outside of ceremonial circumstances would be like watching a SWAT team rolling down the street. A Paladin on a mission in your area may mean your home or community isn't as safe as you thought. There's a real chance things will get worse before they get better.
So while Paladins might be great, honorable, holy men and women, they can also be harbingers of terrible things. Ample fodder for social play.
And they are PALADINS. That alone should give great weight to their out-of-combat uses. One of the few classes that are almost as well-defined in character as they are in the game rules. And they are known to be Lawful Good, truthful, righteous, and directly favored by the gods. No amount of Charisma or ranks in Diplomacy is going to match the sheer weight carried by that.
Good common folk will line up for their blessings, come to them to arbitrate all manner of problems. Goodly kings will stop and listen to their words, while evil kings will tremble and placate them. Good churches fling wide their doors and prepare warm welcomes, oppressed people come to them in secret.
Paladins, if played as obvious paladins, tabard, holy symbols, etc, should be reacted to. Even if those around him are skeptical, he can prove his status pretty easily with lay on hands, or a spell. They aren't a typical fighter, or a cleric, they are something truly special.
Exactly. And don't forget that Paladins are also the tip of a very dangerous spear. They are hunters of unholy monstrosities and the first, and sometimes last, line of defense. Unlike Inquisitors or Clerics, who can usually find a good reason to hang around a peaceful community, Paladins are driven to find, confront, and destroy the darkness. Seeing one outside of ceremonial circumstances would be like watching a SWAT team rolling down the street. A Paladin on a mission in your area may mean your home or community isn't as safe as you thought. There's a real chance things will get worse before they get better.
So while Paladins might be great, honorable, holy men and women, they can also be harbingers of terrible things. Ample fodder for social play.
Brilliant. Both of these comments are excellent. I love paladins the most, I can't resist playing one in every game (PF, EQ, RoM, D&D, WoW, etc.), but I do agree with deuxhero that "PF Paladins are not a bad class, they just aren't versatile." Furthermore I am more of a tactical roll-player that loves combat way more than roleplaying. And so therefore I always try hard to work on the more flavorful elements of my game, including roleplaying, and I feel like both Mad Jackson's and Talynonyx's comments opened up a new ways for me to look at things with paladins. Bravo.
To address the OP: I don't mean this as a flame, but the question seems to be inquiring about paladins from a mechanics point of view, "Are paladins diverse according to game mechanics?" And several folks have made excellent comments suggesting that they can be. But I submit that any class can be diverse in any situation (combat or not) through superb roleplaying (superb because it is clever, or unorthodox, or possibly just plain entertaining). Like instead of instantly smiting the BBEG he first takes out the dam and wipes out the minions and then smashes the BBEG, or whatever.
Anyway, I think the player's effort is the most important element in making any character excellent (diverse or useful) in any situation. Maybe the OP wanted the discussion to be more geared toward mechanics. Regardless, it's a great question and that's my 2c.
Cheers
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It's too bad the vast majority of a Paladin's spells (which unless you buy pearls of power have very low uses per day) are combat spells or Cleric spells the Cleric got levels ago.
Paladin can fight evil foes (drops quite a bit if the foe is neutral or even good), diplomance (But not as good as a Summoner, Sorcerer or Oracle who can afford a much higher charisma because he doesn't need physical stats) and heal stats conditions IF he has the correct mercy (A cleric can carry around scrolls and failing that, wait till t, he next day and prepare the right spell).
A Summoner can fight, diplomance, help the party travel around, detect traps (Summon Monster SLA), repair the party's gear, create light that isn't flamable, using hands and begging for a Pyrotechics, (both cantrips), create shelter and get an ally that can cast spells nearly as well, if not better than, a dedicated caster character (That's the big one that makes them potentially tier 2) plus more.
A Wizard can do all that and MUCH more.
PF Paladins are not a bad class, they just aren't versatile.
You forget. A well-built Paladin can also Scout, and eventually Fly. They can help the party travel with their Mount as well. He'll probably be rocking 3-4 skill points per level (5 if human and you include Favored Class bonus), which is enough to keep Diplomacy decent, and you can focus on skills like Climb, Swim, Stealth, or Perception.
In fact, if you get the chance to play a Samsaran, you'd get access to several spell-like abilities, and you could add several utility spells from any other divine caster spell list. Actually... I think I just got my next character concept.
@revloc02: Remember, I left the OP vague on purpose. The community should decide what is meant by the statements therein.
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I'm curious how in a game such as this an entire class could somehow render itself only useful in combat in a mechanical sense? They'd have to have some kind of class feature that only allows them to be played in combat and then it forces the player to leave the room until called on again, which sadly is how I think is a minority of people try to play the game. :(
They already have a class for this, it's call Summoner!
BAZINGA!
A human paladin with a 12 Int (entirely doable with a 20-point buy) that puts his favored class bonus into skills will have 5 skill ranks per level. That is plenty to build a solid character both in and out of combat.
For example:
Str 14 (5 pts), Dex 12 (2 pts), Con 12 (2 pts), Int 12 (2 pts), Wis 12 (2 pts), Cha 15 (7 pts).
Put the +2 for Human in Str. Now your stats are:
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 15.
Level 4 goes to Cha (16), 8 & 12 to Con (14), 16 & 20 to Cha (18).
A well-balanced Paladin with good across the board stats, decent hit points (and a means of heal himself in combat; swift action lay-on-hands), reasonable damage output, a good number of skills (5 fully maxed), and great saves.
The problem arises when you see Paladin players who assigned a 7, 8, or 9 to Intelligence and Wisdom, so that they can bump up Str or Cha (or both). But, as a Class, the Paladin is no more susceptible to that than any other class. Remember, there are always people out there who don't want social interaction in their games, they just want to kill the monsters and take their lootz. Which ruins the game for the rest of us, but they are out there.
Master Arminas
I'm gobsmacked that there was ever a question as to whether they were any good outside of combat - haven't seen one that wasn't.
You can easily play a Paladin with quite a lot of out-of-combat utility. In the folowing ways:
1. Detect Evil - Handy in roleplaying situations as well as combat. Knowing that Evil folks are untrustworthy is exceedingly handy.
2. Lay on Hands - Being able to heal people is a great way to make fiends and influence people. Many GMs may ignore this...but they really shouldn't.
3. Skill List - While Paladins have crappy skill points, their actual skill list is quite good containing a number of useful skills and serving to make Paladins who put some investment into it worthwhile. Assuming more than 2 skill points per level (either Int 12+, some Favored Class investment, or being Human) you can max out Diplomacy and Sense Motive, making a solid face character, and still put a few ranks in other stuff as necessary.
4. Spell List - While vastly less so than a Cleric, Paladins do have a number of spells with non-combat applications.
And all that leaves aside the actual roleplaying that a player can do with any character to make them awesome and effective out-of-combat.
Are Paladins as out-of-combat useful as a Bard or Rogue? No. Are they more so than a Fighter? Probably. Than a Barbarian? Maybe. It's all a matter of the particular Paladin and who they are beingg compared to.
I think you nailed it.
I'm currently playing a Paladin in Kingmaker. (We just finished the 3rd book and leveled up to 10th.) I very much enjoy playing my character outside of combat, and find that maxed out Diplomacy, a touch of Knowledge Nobility & Religion, a good mount, healing abilities, and Detect Evil give me more than enough mechanics to support some out-of-combat activity.
The question I posit to the community is this: Do you view Paladins as being useless outside of combat scenarios?
No, unless the player has min-maxed for combat, but then that's true of just about every class.
Paladins have the skills (if not the skill-points) to do the following:
Diplomat: Paladins have good Diplomacy and Knowledge (nobility) means they can move in high society and get the ears of people in power. Diplomacy also means that they can gather information on the street - people will talk to paladins because they can trust them.
Healer: A paladin is nearly as good as having a cleric in the party for dealing with healing (and damaging undead).
Theologan: Paladins are often accepted agents of religious organisations, the military arm of a church. As such they can deal with religious bodies better than other characters save clerics.
Now there are many classes that can do these things better, true, but if you don't have them in your party, the paladin can fill their shoes adequately. If your paladin is in a party with a bard and a cleric, then he's redundant in these roles, but if he's sharing space with a druid, a stealthy monk and a book-worm wizard then he can shine.
It's too bad the vast majority of a Paladin's spells (which unless you buy pearls of power have very low uses per day) are combat spells or Cleric spells the Cleric got levels ago.
Paladin can fight evil foes (drops quite a bit if the foe is neutral or even good), diplomance (But not as good as a Summoner, Sorcerer or Oracle who can afford a much higher charisma because he doesn't need physical stats) and heal stats conditions IF he has the correct mercy (A cleric can carry around scrolls and failing that, wait till the next day and prepare the right spell).
A Summoner can fight, diplomance, help the party travel around, detect traps (Summon Monster SLA), repair the party's gear, create light that isn't flamable, using hands and begging for a Pyrotechics, (both cantrips), create shelter and get an ally that can cast spells nearly as well, if not better than, a dedicated caster character (That's the big one that makes them potentially tier 2) plus more.
A Wizard can do all that and MUCH more.
PF Paladins are not a bad class, they just aren't versatile.
A cleric being able to do it does not mean the paladin can not do it. That is terrible logic. By that example since many of the cleric's spells are on other spellcaster's list the cleric is useless.
What do you mean the summoner is repairing gear? Mending does not restore magical abilities. I can use craft if I just want to fix the item. Summon Monster does not detect traps. That is a fallacy. It might set them off and get the entire party in trouble. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
You can try to say the paladin might not have the correct mercy, but the casters might have the correct spell for that day. They might not have it, is not the same as they can't do it. Paladins can heal. They can fight. They have diplomacy. They have sense motive. They have knowledge(religion). If you can't make the class useful that is a sign of the player that is lacking, not the class.
PS:I just read other post that have me ninja'd.
PS2:Another class can do it also is not the same as the paladin not being able to do it.