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And if you are stuck only playing PFS, or the DM doesn't want to allow (more) house rules, or the game is open table, or you are new to the group, or. . . etc, etc, . . .? There are plenty of reasons beyond lack of trust/crappy DM or players, and in this case is much more "we can't have nice things because Paizo seems to have a real issue making/balancing rules with what they want flavor to be sometimes".
PFS sure, but that is the game world created by the Devs for the modules they are running, so they dictate the flavor.
I've never seen a home game without at least a few house rules. And I've never met a decent GM would wouldn't listen to reasonable requests.
I've also met a ton of people who think the game is Burger King, they should have it there way, to hell with the rest of the table and the GM.
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I used to play a few 3.5 games that where open table, as mandated by the local gaming store owner, meaning that we where free to play to play there on the condiction that we allow anyone (within reason) to join if they asked. That means a lot of different people with a lot of different playstyles, books, understandings, and houserules they are used to.
A lot of DM's are just not willing to try new house rules, as they would rather not risk changing/unbalancing what they already have, do not want even more work, etc. . . It doesn't have anything to do with their lack of knowledge or experience, their unwillingness to work with a player, or anything like that. And it can just as easily be, (and in my experience overwelmingly is) the person wanting to introduce a houserule that brings the "hell with everyone elses fun" attitude, so I'm fully in support of DM's vetoing them outright attitude if it prevents that.
We see this still with Paizo trying so hard to push the Gunslinger, the Summoner, and all the oriental flavor that seemed very undesired by the fans, and all three of those things are very common complaints (still!)for how the game is becoming broken and reintroducing power creep.
In our last 3.5 campaign the VoP Feat was broken in that our Paladin got a Gold Dragon Cohort...and the Dragon took VoP...there was no treasure drain from the Player and Dragons don't rely too much on magic Items so it was Very broken in that application.
I do agree with Devils Advocate...I just hate the Gunslinger, Summoner, and Alchemist classes...they seem broken and downright silly
We see this still with Paizo trying so hard to push the Gunslinger, the Summoner, and all the oriental flavor that seemed very undesired by the fans, and all three of those things are very common complaints (still!)for how the game is becoming broken and reintroducing power creep.
Just going to point out that none of these were a universal OMG no from even half that boards it was like a presidential election you had 40% for 40% against and about 20% who didn't care.
In our last 3.5 campaign the VoP Feat was broken in that our Paladin got a Gold Dragon Cohort...and the Dragon took VoP...there was no treasure drain from the Player and Dragons don't rely too much on magic Items so it was Very broken in that application.
That wouldn't be a case of VoP itself being broken, but rather the use of it going counter to both the purpose of the VoP and the nature of dragons as gold hoarders extraordinaire.
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Just going to point out that none of these were a universal OMG no from even half that boards it was like a presidential election you had 40% for 40% against and about 20% who didn't care.
That may be true, I was generalizing and I do not really remember that many in favor, well possibly for the Summoner.
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Just an update:
I don't think I'll get to use these rules as a player any time soon, but I'm certainly going to be putting them to use for a group of NPCs in Shattered Star.
They could wind up being anything from allies, reluctant enemies, or even cohorts. In that last case, hopefully a sort of "test run" for players with those cohorts could wind up spreading the word on these rules locally. Hopefully. :)
*And the chakra-oriented flavor of these rules fits these guys perfectly
At the very least, all of those NPCs will definitely be able to look the part!
While planning on this, I realized something else: If a GM implements the alternate methods of aquireing points for the ascetic pool that are goal- or deed-oriented, this could really encourage more heroic behavior from heroic characters that might otherwise be hindered by players worrying over losing out on gear or losing the gear they have.
Thanks again for these!
@LazarX
You replied to a post written on August 4th, 2012. Why?
@Thomas Long 175
You forget that the VoP is set in stone. So while what you have can't be taken away easily, you can't just go and get something to react to the situation (flight, water breathing, etc).
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But this was all hashed out over a year ago. So we really don't need to dredge this up, do we? Better to start a new thread if you have thoughts on the matter. This one has a lot of vitriol that simply doesn't need to be resurfaced.
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3E vow of poverty is UNDERPOWERED! UNDERPOWERED! UNDERPOWERED!
Has it sunk in yet?
Compare level-by level what the VoP guy can have vs. what you could get with wealth by level. If you try to match what te VoP guy gets exactly, VoP will look good. If you instead buy stuff that isn't total crap and is actually useful, like say... a wand of fly, ring of protect +5 (VoP does not get that high), celestial armor, animated shield, etc... you'll see VoP for the turd that it is. Wealth is customizable to what you want, and can be used to plug an emergency leak like, "oh crap, I can't fly and a lot of enemies can! Perhaps a means of flight would be rather kickass for me to obtain..." Or fill utility roles w/ scrolls and such.
PF vow of poverty...is the most abominable trap option I have ever seen in d20. Like, 3E toughness sucked, you only got 3 hp. But you...actually got 3 hp. It didn't take hp away from you for being dumbass enough to take it. That's basically what PF VoP does. Not content to give you nothing at all for the expense of your class feature, it actually makes you worse in return for that class feature! Much, much, much, much, MUCH worse!
I feel dirty just dignifying PF's vop rules by speaking of them.
Seconded. If your going to offer a alternative they could have at least tried to not make it suck so badly. I rather take Prone Shooter first before taking the PF VOP. It's not worth the paper it's printed on let alone the ink it was written with. I know they are human and mistakes are sometimes made. At this point though trap options need to no longer appear in products. The devs are more experinced in developing material.
That being said I do like almost everything else they have published. I see no reason not to give them feedback. Even negative feedback. Don't start a company if as a person or group one can't handle criticism. I work in a bookstore. Do you know how much flak I get because the internet price is less than the store price. All you can do is smile, try to help and move on to the next customer. That bring said we could be more diplomatic in terms of what we write. Which is why I rewrote my above post.
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Dotting! I am all in favour of reducing Christmas tree syndrome :).
Are you adding arguments to my arguments or trying to argue against me
For some reason I thought you had said the thing that LazarX said. I think I got mixed up after trying to go back and find what post he was quoting, lol.
It was meant for him, not you Thomas. Sorry!
Even with the hit to versatality, the ascetic option is still a significant power up compared to normal magic items. They're not subject to search, seizure, or loss. I believe they should be "priced" the same way bracers are priced compared to normal enchanted armor and amulets of the fists compared to normal weapon enchantments. The "vow of ascetism" as is used here is not a roleplaying challenging hindrance, but a significant powerup overall.The hit to versatility on the fly was the big (and perfectly fair) tradeoff that stood out to me.
You'll likely also need to unbind your chakras to use plot-necessary items or artifacts whould they come up, like if you need to wear a magical hazmat suit* or the spacesuits from Distant Worlds.**
*This is actually a thing.
**Ryu might not need magical loots to make him an awesome supernatural martial artist, but even he'd concede to the requirements of the vacuum of space. He's not Batman after all.
Um, you may want to check your math on that. Bracers of armor are priced the same way as armor. It's still 1000 gp * bonus squared. It also happens to get a free "ghost touch" because bracers are a force effect and thus apply vs incorporeal creatures. You may want to step back and check your notes again. :P
They indeed aren't subject to search, seizure, or loss. In the same way that Skill Focus, Power Attack, and Improved Initiative aren't. You're spending a feat, a resource, to no longer be able to use magic items, to get something that is functionally similar. It doesn't stop you from getting captured. Getting tied up is a thing.
Likewise, you should never have to spend a feat to make yourself worse. If you want to forgo the usage of magic items and such without any benefit for doing so you are not required to take this feat. My brother at the age of 5, gave away all the gold pieces he got from his adventures to the poor. His fighter never spent a dime on himself other than for his basic equipment and his horse (who he gave village children rides around the fountain on between adventures). He never had a feat that gave him powers (though I did start having NPCs gift him with better equipment for his acts of selfless heroism).
However, if you decide you want to forgo magic items with nothing to make up for it, I wish you the best of luck, and I look forward to seeing your next character at the end of our session.
Also, for those curious (incase the old link is dead) the thing that LazarX was complaining about is this: Ascetic Characters Mini Handbook v1.0 which I wrote up in about 10-20 minutes as a gift for Mikaze.
You can find it and other stuff on the Free PDF Downloads page on My Blog: Alvena Publishing.
I discuss game theory, GMing advice, world building, and so forth on my blog semi-regularly. I'm currently doing a mini-series on building encounters, and I'm overdue for the final (or second to final) post in that series, which discusses the use of BBEG solo-encounters; but I've been so busy over the holidays that I've not gotten around to completing it.
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I also feel compelled to point out that "You're all captured and your gear is taken away" is one of the most hated gaming tropes for a reason. If the party is getting captured and stripped of gear on a regular enough basis that one person being immune to gear-stripping is a major "problem", I can't imagine the players are going to stay in the game for very long.
indeed this game is one that expects players to have a certain level of equipment to keep up with the expected challenge ratings at a certain point and taking that significantly impacts the capabilities of a party.
Another point is the versatility of non casters. Your wizard at high levels will probably have most of the spells and a way to meet nearly any challenge. Most responses on combating the lack for fighters is "umd" but if you take vow of poverty you can no longer use wands. Aka one of the major ways for fighters to contribute out of combat and to deal with out of the box situations in combat has been effectively destroyed.
This reminds me of Baldur's Gate I where you face off against a bunch of shadow druids. Though I loved fighting them, these encounters are largely filled with "you get the finger" enemies. Since they just rely on their magic for everything, you fight your way through all these challenging things only to kill them and loot their bodies to find:
1 quarterstaff
1 leather armor (MAYBE)
But during the fight you were basically beset by animals, covered in plagues of insects, blasted with lightning round to round, and had to beat them back into humanoid form since they were very comfortable mauling your face as a bear. :P
Druid circles are likewise one of those things you really don't want to tick off in tabletop D&D. The GM could speed up making individual druids by just dumping mundane gear on them and giving them the usual -1 CR for being under geared. You fight through the hordes of summoned animals, the enlarged animal companions, while getting pelted with lightning the whole time. Ouch!
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Personally I feel the 3.5 VoP was necessary... Because trying to make the Ascetic Character is damn near impossible within the framework of the 3.X system as it stands. The game is WAY to dependent on gear, and to take a character's gear away GREATLY crushes the character to becoming nothing more than being a worse summoned creature.
The only class that was able to really abuse VoP was the 3.5 druid (even that is debatable) and the melder from Magic of Incarnum (TECHNICALLY ITS NOT WORTH ANYTHING!!!! HAHAHAHA!!!!)
Pfff. In 3.5 I finished age-of-worms with a sorceress who had two items. A +6 cha item and a knowstone. Everything else I needed came from broken spells and abusing original printing shapechange (transfrom into creature with less than double your CL).
Likewise we had a druid with one notable item and that was the +6 wis item.
With the way polymorph worked back then, gear was more or less superfluous. The only characters that could survive in that campaign were the polymorphed and wild-shaped ones.
We had one guy who combo'd enough spells and prestige classes together to be all but untouchable.