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Going by what's been said in some threads, it sounds like the default assumption for this AP is that the PCs will be Pathfinders.
How much of the AP hinges on that assumption? Will there be hooks and plot to grab parties that aren't made of Pathfinder members, or at most just have one Pathfinder member PC or even just an NPC contact affiliated with the society, at least to serve as the starting point to get their momentum going?
Just wondering how easy/hard it'll be to reconfigure this if the players would prefer to simply play adventurous characters that live in or around Magnimar. Most of them are plenty invested in Varisia and its cultures, but not so much the actual Pathfinder organization.
I'm kind of wondering the same thing.....
We have never actually played Pathfinders, I actually didn't think you could be an "official" pathfinder at 1st level ???
Not that I don't have some niffty ideas if that makes things run smoother (grin).
Since all Pathfinder Society characters start at 1st level, you certainly can be an official Pathfinder at 1st.
Good to know.
The only thing I had really seen was the "reputation point" system, so I assumed you had to have at least a few levels under your belt.
Preaching to the choir Mikaze. I really dislike the society and I'm dismayed that I am forced to be a member for this AP.
I don't see anything that "forces" you to be a member.
It should be a simple matter to reflavor the elements that assume membership.
GM can change any element, right?
Didn't someone once say "Never sacrifice rules for story." or something liek that.
Creative Director
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The "you're all Pathfinders" element is not a big part of Shattered Star. It's the mechanisim by which we get the PCs together at 1st level, and it fuels a few subplots along the way... but it's easy enough to find/replace the word "Pathfinder" with "noble" or "merchant" or "guild member" or "Golemworks employee" or even "Adventurer." Whatever works for your group, as long as whatever organization they get involved with wants to see the PCs seek out an ancient artifact in order to better Varisia as a whole.
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My homebrew has no pathfinder society, but each nation pretty much has its equivalent. My players will be members of the Sinister Expedition, newly founded by Emperor Xin to recover lost Thassilonian artifacts.
My RotR ended with them restoring the son of Xin to the throne of a new Thassilon after defeating the seven traitorous Runelords and the PCs became the new Runelords =p
The PFS is kinda designed to be easily replaced by the Striders of Farlanghn or whomever you prefer.
My homebrew has no pathfinder society, but each nation pretty much has its equivalent. My players will be members of the Sinister Expedition, newly founded by Emperor Xin to recover lost Thassilonian artifacts.
My RotR ended with them restoring the son of Xin to the throne of a new Thassilon after defeating the seven traitorous Runelords and the PCs became the new Runelords =p
The PFS is kinda designed to be easily replaced by the Striders of Farlanghn or whomever you prefer.
I like that Runelords idea. In my group we change DMs sometimes for campaigns and thus for Rise of the Runelords, I was a player. And our group was TPKed when the giants attacked Sandpoint in Chapter 3 (having failed to stop them from forging their armors previously). So with that, the campaign ended and Karzoug awakened.
In the Curse of the Crimson Throne, I was the DM and decided Karzoug was content with just ruling over Sandpoint and the surrounding areas and after Illeosa was defeated, I had him suddenly show up to help the party to destroy the Fangs of Kazavon permanentaly in exchange for allowing his giants to garrison Riddleport in case the Runelord Shorshen awakened.
All that to simply say that having Karzoug make another appearance and have him be a main NPC in the players lives to reforge the Shattered Star would be pretty cool.
Since all Pathfinder Society characters start at 1st level, you certainly can be an official Pathfinder at 1st.Just to elaborate on this - the Pathfinder Society actually has facilities to train most of its' field agents from commoners to first-level adventurers in almost any class. Even divine spellcasters can get a boost from this (in the form of archetypes.)
The only absolute requirements to join the Pathfinder Society are:
1) The will and means to travel to Absalom for training
2) The ability to read and write (One of the things you're expected to do is write articles for the Pathfinder Chronicles)
3) A willingness to abide by the three maxims of Explore, Report, and Cooperate.Really, that's it. If you can manage those three things, the Society can probably find a way to put you to work doing something.
The thing is, until Seekers of Secrets came out, I liked the Pathfinder Society. But I found the dehumanizing 'give up your identity and get brainwashed' nature of joining the Society extraordinarily distasteful and now see them as a borderline-evil organization (at the very least, insanely Lawful for a group supposedly made up of free spirits) I never want anything to do with, either as a GM or as a PC. I honestly don't see the difference between submitting to Pathfinder "training" and joining the church of Razmir or getting press-ganged, except for some reason in-world characters are supposed to see the Society as admirable and prestigious.
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The thing is, until Seekers of Secrets came out, I liked the Pathfinder Society. But I found the dehumanizing 'give up your identity and get brainwashed' nature of joining the Society extraordinarily distasteful and now see them as a borderline-evil organization (at the very least, insanely Lawful for a group supposedly made up of free spirits) I never want anything to do with, either as a GM or as a PC. I honestly don't see the difference between submitting to Pathfinder "training" and joining the church of Razmir or getting press-ganged, except for some reason in-world characters are supposed to see the Society as admirable and prestigious.Since all Pathfinder Society characters start at 1st level, you certainly can be an official Pathfinder at 1st.Just to elaborate on this - the Pathfinder Society actually has facilities to train most of its' field agents from commoners to first-level adventurers in almost any class. Even divine spellcasters can get a boost from this (in the form of archetypes.)
The only absolute requirements to join the Pathfinder Society are:
1) The will and means to travel to Absalom for training
2) The ability to read and write (One of the things you're expected to do is write articles for the Pathfinder Chronicles)
3) A willingness to abide by the three maxims of Explore, Report, and Cooperate.Really, that's it. If you can manage those three things, the Society can probably find a way to put you to work doing something.
It's beena bit since I've read that, but where did you read this? The training is sequestered, but I remember no brainwashing.
With the caveat that I'm Chaotic in alignment in real life, these are the excerpts I find appalling:
...required to follow any and all edicts passed down from those in charge of their training.... While not exactly slaves, initiates forfeit all but their most basic rights to the Pathfinder Society....
Initiates are stripped of all but their most basic possessions ... and issued nondescript outfits of homespun gray cloth. They are then ... assigned their new quarters, often packed three or more to a room. For the next several years, these austere cells ... are their only homes.
...initiates lack the opportunity to leave the compound unless ordered....Then it goes on to talk about how initiates are assigned to scrub other people's chamber pots for a while before listing all the things that can get you punishments up to and including public floggings:
no fighting, no leaving the Grand Lodge, no entering forbidden areas..., no chemical addictions, and no romantic entanglements.
And yet, somehow, once they've spend several years as subservient vassals, the Pathfinders dare to describe themselves as "an organization composed of fierce individualists" and not an organization of people who have learned to love Big Decemvirate! Now all the foregoing sounds absolutely de rigeur for people joining the army or the Hellknights or an order of paladins, but there's no way in the Nine Hells any of my chaotic characters are going to submit to that level of regimentation and "not-exactly" slavery. I don't see much difference between that and serving aboard the Wormwood. You're right in that there's no actual brainwashing and I overspoke there, but the point where people confiscate all your possessions, issue you drab gray uniforms, forbid personal relationships that might threaten your devotion to the Society, and isolate you from outside influences for several years while requiring unquestioning obedience is the point where it sounds less like a cool club of Indiana Jones types and more like a Church of Razmir that's ripe to be overthrown by some real heroes.
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Yeah, like a lot of people I replaced the weird training aspect with:
The Pathfinder Society are a group of adventurers, treasure hunters and writers who seek secrets of the past and of the world. Membership is extended to those who show a willingness to adventure, cooperate and write about their exploits.
The end.
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With the caveat that I'm Chaotic in alignment in real life, these are the excerpts I find appalling:...required to follow any and all edicts passed down from those in charge of their training.... While not exactly slaves, initiates forfeit all but their most basic rights to the Pathfinder Society....Initiates are stripped of all but their most basic possessions ... and issued nondescript outfits of homespun gray cloth. They are then ... assigned their new quarters, often packed three or more to a room. For the next several years, these austere cells ... are their only homes....initiates lack the opportunity to leave the compound unless ordered....Then it goes on to talk about how initiates are assigned to scrub other people's chamber pots for a while before listing all the things that can get you punishments up to and including public floggings:no fighting, no leaving the Grand Lodge, no entering forbidden areas..., no chemical addictions, and no romantic entanglements.And yet, somehow, once they've spend several years as subservient vassals, the Pathfinders dare to describe themselves as "an organization composed of fierce individualists" and not an organization of people who have learned to love Big Decemvirate! Now all the foregoing sounds absolutely de rigeur for people joining the army or the Hellknights or an order of paladins, but there's no way in the Nine Hells any of my chaotic characters are going to submit to that level of regimentation and "not-exactly" slavery. I don't see much difference between that and serving aboard the Wormwood. You're right in that there's no actual brainwashing and I overspoke there, but the point where people confiscate all your possessions, issue you drab gray uniforms, forbid personal relationships that might threaten your devotion to the Society, and isolate you from outside influences for several years while requiring unquestioning obedience is the point where it sounds less like a...
To be fair these dont sound all that diffrent than what you have to follow at boot camp when you join the army
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To be fair these dont sound all that diffrent than what you have to follow at boot camp when you join the army
I see no issues, and certainly no brainwashing. Seems like a smart way to train people for such a rigorous profession. Certainly nothing there means that one has "people who have learned to love Big Decemvirate"
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1) The will and means to travel to Absalom for training
2) The ability to read and write (One of the things you're expected to do is write articles for the Pathfinder Chronicles)
3) A willingness to abide by the three maxims of Explore, Report, and Cooperate.
While these certainly help... you can become a pathfinder without doing any of these if you're an awesome-enough adventurer who goes on a great quest to help the Pathfinders.
A quest like, say, the one in Shattered Star.
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The thing is, until Seekers of Secrets came out, I liked the Pathfinder Society. But I found the dehumanizing 'give up your identity and get brainwashed' nature of joining the Society extraordinarily distasteful and now see them as a borderline-evil organization (at the very least, insanely Lawful for a group supposedly made up of free spirits) I never want anything to do with, either as a GM or as a PC. I honestly don't see the difference between submitting to Pathfinder "training" and joining the church of Razmir or getting press-ganged, except for some reason in-world characters are supposed to see the Society as admirable and prestigious.
And if that's the notion that book gave you about the Pathfinder Society, then I'm afraid that the book was a failure, alas.
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I got the impression that the formal training program was mostly there to weed out the naive farmers who show up looking to become a Pathfinder. The "boot camp" analogy seems pretty good; better to send you home disillusioned but alive than to see you go off and die trying to be something you're not prepared for.
At the same time, I also see it as being somewhat of a test. People who accept the drudgery and who don't break ranks (at least occasionally) are probably too meek or orderly to make good Pathfinders, so they will not rise above the rank-and-file (most likely).
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I dont think you heed to do an entire AP at all. More like one level one adventure. Whispering Cairn, Crown of the Kobold King. Those would make you worthy.
This is the route I see most PCs following. The section on Field Commissions from Seekers covers this. If you do something extraordinary, you have the chance to immediately be a Pathfinder. POOF. No grueling (and demeaning) training required.
Again, this isn't going to apply to the farmer's son Billy who says "I saw some strange stones over yonder!" but the PCs are supposed to be a cut above the rest. The exact source of their Field Commission can also be a good source of background material for the PCs ("What level 0 adventure did you just finish to get a field commission before coming to Magnimar?" or something). Shrug.NOTE: Serpent's Skull even mentions this. If the PCs decide to lead the Pathfinder expedition to find Saventh-Yhi, they'll potentially be offered a Field Commission. And the PCs are probably only 5-6th level by the time then.
To those who think the Pathfinder Society is a group of evil brainwashers for their training tendencies, look at any other great school in the inner sea.
Certain monk groups literally DO brainwash their pupils so they are dedicated to the cause. Heck, look at any church or guild. When I think a large society, I think uniforms etc automatically.
And just because the rules say no romantic entanglements etc, doesn't mean its not happening, it just means they work on how not to get caught. I actually see that as an underlying part of the training - learning how not to get caught breaking the rules set before them and working the system.
And to give a couple examples outside of Pathfinder, look at the mages guild in Dragon Age, or the Aes Sedai in Wheel of Time. Heck, I think of Catholic School, or certain private colleges. Doesn't make any of them evil. Its just a cultural and historic item.
But as many have already said, if you don't like it, don't use it. Make up something your players would get easier. The former was there to make it easy for you, but in the end your the GM and the players (unless they're reading the adventure) won't know you made it up anyways.
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I'll read it again, but I did so just a couple of weeks ago and the module was pretty clear that the Field Commission being offered is conditional on completely exploring Saventh-Yhi - a task that won't be finished until 15th level at the earliest.
That's what I thought at first too, then I read it again.
Quoted from Racing to Ruin:So just finding an ancient lost city is enough. Again, that's a pretty big and rare deal, but it's a possibility.
One of the things that most baffled me about the Pathfinder Society was the revelation that the Pathfinder Chronicles are not meant for public consumption, only for other Pathfinders, and that the public only acquires them because issues eventually get leaked. That one detail utterly dismantled what I thought was the raison d'etre of the Pathfinders as Indiana Jones-alikes. If they're not uncovering this ancient knowledge to spread it to the world, than what is the purpose of it? Apparently, the reason is some secret of the Decimverate--which brings us back to the perception of the Society as a sinister organization.
Well, pathfinders is a bit different in my world.
Basically people intrested in everything banded together.
A monthly fee for membership, and can be waived if exploring new stuff.
Write a rapport, or dictate to the scribe/scribes at the lodge. Next its up for sale. Members buy with a rebate, while the writer and lodge shares the profit on any sales. Not much of even a ruling board, rules or training.
Other than cheaper rapport copies, membership grants access to the lodge library of rapports.. that are shared with other lodges and copied up as required by a horde of scribes (pretty much only costs for the lodge, aside from the housing). Incomes from membership (idea being to pay the clubhouse with those) and sales (to cover scribes and such).
Ofcourse a significant share of the members are various nobles that want to look civilised by having access to lore and sponsoring arts and knowledge, but could never be bothered to go exploring on their own. Diletanttes in short, someone else might call them fops..
Sometimes they directly sponsor an expedition.
Glad to hear PFS does not play a major role in this AP; would have tried to circumvent it in any case, but was afraid it'd take a lot (more) of prep from my side as GM.
Ruyan.
Player Character Want Ad for Shattered Star:
Dungeon Plundering Treasure & Mystery seekers wanted
Conspiracy theorists and dedicated investigators appreciated
(Dis-interested layabouts and opponents of archeological ruins filled with eldritch terrors, hideous curses, cramped conditions, diabolical traps, and doors need not apply)
That should do nicely for getting a group in the right mindset for this AP without requiring a Pathfinder membership badge/fedora/pin/hat/shirt/ring/whatever.
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I have to say I am slightly concerned over the influence the Pathfinder Society has or could have on this path.
I am going to be a player in this campaign and I fancied the idea of a Paladin PC as I haven't played one since 1st Ed. I went and got the Seeker of Secrets so I could get a feel for the society so I could roleplay my PC better. The first thing that hit me was that there is no way a Paladin would join this group.
Take away all my possessions including the holy symbols of my deity? Not going to happen...
Clean toilets and be a prisoner/slave but without the name? Nah...
Work with a group of people who have no moral stance on "evil" other than "don't fight in our back yards"?
So that's a Paladin scuppered...
So either I have got the impression very wrong about the Pathfinders or there really is no way a Paladin and to a lesser extent any LG PC could work with them without it pricking their morals regularly.
To me the Seeker of Secrets presents the PF as an egotistical, power hungry, controlling quasi-evil group of tomb robbers ruled by a very shady, possibly evil, cabal of nefarious people. I may be reading it all wrong but they certainly didn't give me the impression of a neutral society with good leanings which was my previous view. Something which disappointed me. In fact I could easily see many PC groups actively working against the Pathfinders and still remain with their feet firmly planted in the "Good" camp.
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Seeker of Secrets is kind of a bad book. I am DMing the first book and I can tell you right now it is very Paladin friendly.
Take away all my possessions including the holy symbols of my deity? Not going to happen...Clean toilets and be a prisoner/slave but without the name? Nah...
Ignore those bits from Seekers of Secrets entirely, they have been quietly retconned.
Work with a group of people who have no moral stance on "evil" other than "don't fight in our back yards"?
The purpose of the Society is to collect ancient lore. The organization itself is neutral. So yeah it accepts everyone, but even a Paladin can't just go around killing people for detecting as evil. That would be chaotic =p
I have to say I am slightly concerned over the influence the Pathfinder Society has or could have on this path.
I am going to be a player in this campaign and I fancied the idea of a Paladin PC as I haven't played one since 1st Ed. I went and got the Seeker of Secrets so I could get a feel for the society so I could roleplay my PC better. The first thing that hit me was that there is no way a Paladin would join this group.
Take away all my possessions including the holy symbols of my deity? Not going to happen...
Clean toilets and be a prisoner/slave but without the name? Nah...
Work with a group of people who have no moral stance on "evil" other than "don't fight in our back yards"?
So that's a Paladin scuppered...
So either I have got the impression very wrong about the Pathfinders or there really is no way a Paladin and to a lesser extent any LG PC could work with them without it pricking their morals regularly.
To me the Seeker of Secrets presents the PF as an egotistical, power hungry, controlling quasi-evil group of tomb robbers ruled by a very shady, possibly evil, cabal of nefarious people. I may be reading it all wrong but they certainly didn't give me the impression of a neutral society with good leanings which was my previous view. Something which disappointed me. In fact I could easily see many PC groups actively working against the Pathfinders and still remain with their feet firmly planted in the "Good" camp.
It has been noted a couple of times recently by James Jacobs (in this thread, actually, I believe) that this impression is ONE of SEVERAL problems with Seekers of Secrets.
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James has said it before, and I'll say it again (as the author of Book 6, which, aside from Book 1, is the only other in the AP to have any significant Pathfinder Society interactions, and still pretty limited at that):
Spacelard (and others): Your problem here is with Seeker of Secrets, NOT this AP or its starting assumptions for PCs. As Urath notes above, James has downplayed significant portions of that book, and the AP does not use it, OR any of the more controversial aspects of the Society listed above, as its base assumption.
Of course, GMs are free to use whichever version of the Society they wish, or take it out altogether -it isn't going to sour the fun you'll have with this AP, despite the minor teacup tempests some folks have tried to conjure with the Pathfinders' inclusion in these volumes.
Yep. If people were just willing to read the entire thread before echoing the "not for me" sentiment stirred up by Seekers of Secrets they would see that it's not even a problem. The thread has already addressed these issues.
C'mon, the thread isn't even a full page long yet. It doesn't take much to see if your issues have already been covered.
For those of you whose problems lie not with the PFS but with having characters tied to an organization in general (some players just have that "lone-wolf" attitude), that has also been addressed in this thread.
Internet, don't fail me now.
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Creative Director
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I have to say I am slightly concerned over the influence the Pathfinder Society has or could have on this path.
I am going to be a player in this campaign and I fancied the idea of a Paladin PC as I haven't played one since 1st Ed. I went and got the Seeker of Secrets so I could get a feel for the society so I could roleplay my PC better. The first thing that hit me was that there is no way a Paladin would join this group.
Take away all my possessions including the holy symbols of my deity? Not going to happen...
Clean toilets and be a prisoner/slave but without the name? Nah...
Work with a group of people who have no moral stance on "evil" other than "don't fight in our back yards"?
So that's a Paladin scuppered...
So either I have got the impression very wrong about the Pathfinders or there really is no way a Paladin and to a lesser extent any LG PC could work with them without it pricking their morals regularly.
To me the Seeker of Secrets presents the PF as an egotistical, power hungry, controlling quasi-evil group of tomb robbers ruled by a very shady, possibly evil, cabal of nefarious people. I may be reading it all wrong but they certainly didn't give me the impression of a neutral society with good leanings which was my previous view. Something which disappointed me. In fact I could easily see many PC groups actively working against the Pathfinders and still remain with their feet firmly planted in the "Good" camp.
Seekers of Secrets stressed and focused on those elements too much, in hindsight.
We intend the Pathfinder Society to be a good place for the classic PC Adventurer to join, have support, and belong. If it doesn't allow that, it's not working as intended.
So, yeah... ignoring the parts of Seekers of Secrets that make the Pathfinder Society NOT work well in a campaign like Shattered Star is the way to go.
It actually kinda discusses the downplaying of the Pathfinder Society in the first adventure by having Sheila act as a significant mentor and liason between the Society and the PC group should the DM want to go that direction. Sheila has a detailed enough writeup she can simply act as a patron for the PCs.
And for those who think artifact fetch quests aren't epic enough to motivate interest, there is another angle you can play up to as well:
Thank you James for your reply. I shall get my GM to read this thread. As I am going to be the PLAYER in this AP I just skimmed through just in case there were spoilers.
I purchased the Seekers of Secrets specifically to get a handle on the Pathfinder Society so I could roleplay my Paladin PC to the full. I don't think as a player it wasn't unreasonable of me to assume there would be a very close connect with the Pathfinders based on the information in the Players Guide and from the hints from an excitable GM.
I will suggest that the PFS play a periphery role in the AP or as possible antagonists.
Yep. If people were just willing to read the entire thread before echoing the "not for me" sentiment stirred up by Seekers of Secrets they would see that it's not even a problem. The thread has already addressed these issues.
C'mon, the thread isn't even a full page long yet. It doesn't take much to see if your issues have already been covered.
For those of you whose problems lie not with the PFS but with having characters tied to an organization in general (some players just have that "lone-wolf" attitude), that has also been addressed in this thread.
Internet, don't fail me now.
....of course there were some pretty disturbing takes in the whole "Stories by Eando Kline" background stuff among the early dozen of Pathfinder Journals (AP-I - AP XII ) which depicted the Leadership and organization as rather unscrupulous, so unscrupulous even, that Eando "of memorable morale judgements" actually thought himself "the better man". Or later stories like the series by Elaine Cunningham. Backstabbing, treacherous, spy-like, of variable alignments and likability.
Nevermind the infighting stuff in "Seeker of Secrets and "the Pathfinder Society" - retconned or whatever. The impression.... lasts.
Casting Raise Thread ...
If not the society, who in Varisia would have both the resources and will to make this adventure path happen?
An azlanti woman named "Aulthunn"? (The Dread Heart of Xin, p32)
The idea that she doesn't meet the party near the end of the AP, but has been hiding out in Magnimar long enough to establish an herself as a scholar of all things Thasilon.