Paladin Quetions


Advice


Started a new campaign. First time ever playing a Paladin, and I am still pretty new to Pathfinder/D&D.

So far we just leveled up to lvl 3. And my Paladin seems to get dropped too easy.

Level 3 Human Paladin
25 Point System

STR 18(2 from Human)
DEX 10
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14

HP 32
AC 19
9 Skill Points

Traits = Armor Expert and Rich Family

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave and Weapon focus

Armor: Masterwork Full Plate
Weapons: Masterwork Greatsword, Crossbow, Guisarme(Found in Game)

Favored Class Bonus:
+1 to Fire Resis
+1 to Acid Resis

Anyone have any tips, or see if there is somewhere I messed up?


I dunno he's got a good CON and he's got a decent (though not uber) AC so he shouldn't be dropped too easily. now that he's got Divine Grace he should have decent saves (though if I were to point to one area where arguably you "messed up," his CHA should be higher than his Con - but that won't help your base HP).

Perhaps you're not using Lay on Hands on yourself enough. Perhaps you're not getting enough effective support from the rest of the party (who may be seeing you as "you tank this while we do whatever," but letting you soak all the attacks until you drop doesn't contribute enough to the party HP pool).

P.S. I'm still learning all the Traits but I tend to dislike one-time cash bonuses. Yes they can seem critical early on. But their benefit fades too fast compared to other options that are useful throughout the character's existence.


More information is needed regarding what you're fighting, the terrain in which you are fighting, the rest of your group, and strategies being used.

Lantern Lodge

If you're allowed to Restat your PC, I would make the following changes:
Str: 18 (+2 race)
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

This way you get all access to spells and good saves across the board. Put Favored Class into HP. I'm not sure how you're getting dropped easily, you have decent AC and should be pounding out lots of damage. Perhaps you should play a little more cautiously? Ready an attack for when an enemy comes within 5ft. rather than charging forward? You'll avoid a BBEG's full attack that way. Is the rest of the party built well?


The other Members are a Bard, a 2 Handed Fighter, a Druid, and a Ranger.
And we have a Witch and Gunslinger that comes in and out.

Not sure of your Familiar with the Sasserine Mod. But so far we just fought some diseased Pirates. 3 Rushed me and killed me in 1 shot. Granted they all hit twice, and 4 hits got through for like 24 points of damage and killed me.

That was getting towards the end of the day and I had alrdy burned through my Lay on Hands.


Not familiar with the module but do the diseased pirates have pounce? How can they all hit more than once when they "rush" you?


dmoe82 wrote:
That was getting towards the end of the day and I had alrdy burned through my Lay on Hands.

Well this could be why, or at least one reason why - that temptation to squeeze juuuussssst one more encounter into the adventuring day when limited-use abilities are at or near Empty.

As uncool as the "15 minute adventuring day" is, at early levels it pays to be cautious.


dmoe82 wrote:

The other Members are a Bard, a 2 Handed Fighter, a Druid, and a Ranger.

And we have a Witch and Gunslinger that comes in and out.

Not sure of your Familiar with the Sasserine Mod. But so far we just fought some diseased Pirates. 3 Rushed me and killed me in 1 shot. Granted they all hit twice, and 4 hits got through for like 24 points of damage and killed me.

That was getting towards the end of the day and I had alrdy burned through my Lay on Hands.

Is your DM having all enemies act on the same initiative, or did you just get an unlucky initiative order where three of them went in a row?

And... if they all "rushed you", which I assume means they "charged", how did they each get multiple hits on you? (This smells of improper play...)

Also, did you have a turn before the enemies, or did they all act before you? Reason for the question is... if you are advancing towards them but cannot make it there, use the Total Defense action while they approach you. +4 AC (+6 if you have 3 ranks in Acrobatics) is nothing to sneeze at. Also, if you're getting low on LoH, you may want to start fighting 'defensively' (-4 attack, +2 dodge).

Lastly, if you are employing the tactic of "combat started, so I charge the enemy" every time, you may want to reconsider and patiently let your ranged party members make a dent first. Buffs or offensive spells from the bard, attacks from the ranger/gunslinger, and offensive spells from the druid may thin the enemy a bit, and even if it doesn't you can always form a defensive line with the two-handed fighter. Maybe use a sling or bow to pop off a shot or two as the enemy approaches.

Lantern Lodge

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dmoe82 wrote:
3 Rushed me and killed me in 1 shot. Granted they all hit twice, and 4 hits got through for like 24 points of damage and killed me.

I'm not familiar with the Sasserine Mod but they rushed you and were able to make two attacks? That seems fishy to me because you can't make two melee attacks when moving more than 5ft. unless you have some pounce ability. At lvl 3, I think it'd be rare to find humanoid opponents who can do this.

How many enemies were there total? Because if three out of four attacked you, then there's no problem going down. You're a melee combatant so it's expected you'll bear the brunt of the assault.

Lantern Lodge

AerynTahlro wrote:
And... if they all "rushed you", which I assume means they "charged", how did they each get multiple hits on you? (This smells of improper play...)

Ninja'd :)


kaisc006 wrote:
AerynTahlro wrote:
And... if they all "rushed you", which I assume means they "charged", how did they each get multiple hits on you? (This smells of improper play...)
Ninja'd :)

Gignere got that question in before I did >.> granted, I decided to talk more, haha...


If you're looking for an optimisation guide, you can always try here.


dmoe82 wrote:
Not sure of your Familiar with the Sasserine Mod. But so far we just fought some diseased Pirates. 3 Rushed me and killed me in 1 shot. Granted they all hit twice, and 4 hits got through for like 24 points of damage and killed me.

Sounds like you are light on casting power there. Plus, as others have mentioned, in the round they rushed you they should have hit once each only. That they hit twice AND that they got four hits through your AC smells really fishy, actually.

Liberty's Edge

Barring restatting, get some AC items, a Headband of Charisma (for better Saves, Smite, and Lay on Hands), and (at 4th level) memorize Hero's Defiance and save a use of LoH for it every day. That should keep you up a bit. As should the more than doubled effectiveness of Lay on Hands at 4th level.

At 5th level, if you're still having trouble, take Toughness or Extra Lay on Hands as your Feat.

If restatting is allowed, I'd likely go with this:

Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16

(Or Int 8, Wis 10...but I personally dislike low Int characters). That'll give you an AC boost and a few less HP...but more Lay on Hands to compensate. Your Reflex save'll also go up by 2.

And put my Favored Class bonuses into HP, not Resistances. Resistance is cool, but at 1 per level? HP just seems a better bet.

Also, I agree with everyone else that low level foes getting multiple attacks on a charge is wrong. Is your GM also new? If so, it's likely an honest mistake and should be brought to his attention so it's not repeated.


Everyone's squishy at 1st. A couple of hits and you get dropped.

You can stat out your character well enough and equip him well enough, but a couple of good rolls by your DM and you go splat.

2nd level you start to see some separation between the d10, d8 and d6 characters, with regards to total hit points, but you still don't have enough HP's for extended multiple melees in a session.

I'm not sure how to evaluate a character as being too squishy at 1st and 2nd levels.

All low level characters are basically squishy versus what your character becomes at 4 or 5th level.


Sasserine mod? That sounds like The Savage Tide.

Alternately, if you are worried about survival, you can change up to a longsword and heavy shield build. The AC swing in your favor will hold up well.


Oop's Sorry. I asked my DM, I got an attack confused, there was another time where 3 attacked and got 2 hits in each.

At level 2:

We had a Surprise round where I simply moved foward a bit. They we 10 feet away from me. On the Actual attack, 3 charged me and all 3 land hits. Which dropped my Paladin, 24 points of dmg.(23 hp at the time)

And no I was not using Total Deffense or Attack Defensivly. I am still pretty new to this and have a lot to learn.


dmoe82 wrote:

Oop's Sorry. I asked my DM, I got an attack confused, there was another time where 3 attacked and got 2 hits in each.

At level 2:

We had a Surprise round where I simply moved foward a bit. They we 10 feet away from me. On the Actual attack, 3 charged me and all 3 land hits. Which dropped my Paladin, 24 points of dmg.(23 hp at the time).

Yeah, stuff like that is mainly about not putting yourself in tactically disadvantageous positions. Those surprise rounds can be so tempting.
Quote:
And no I was not using Total Deffense or Attack Defensivly. I am still pretty new to this and have a lot to learn.

Savage Tide is a great way to get baptized into the game, then. Trust my avatar; she knows.


K, just spoke with my DM and he is allowing me to "Re-Roll".

So here is what I am doing:

Str 18(2 from Human)
Dex 12
Con 15
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 16

Still have 9 Skills.
No Resis this time put both into HP

33 HP
AC 20

Traits:
Armor Expert(-1 Penalty)
Caretaker +1 Heal

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, and Weapon Focus

Kept the Gear the same:

Masterwork Greatsword, Masterwork Full Plate, Crossbow, and Guisarme.

Think I'll look towards the "Castigator", Keep the Greatsword, pick up a Headband of Cha, and upgrade sword and armor when I can.

Liberty's Edge

Looks good. :)

One quick question:

dmoe82 wrote:


No Resis this time put both into HP

You do realize you should have 3 Favored Class bonuses at 3rd level, right? If not, well, you should. Take another HP.


Um, I think I added it in there but I will double check.

Con + 2 so:

Lvl 1: 1d10 + Con + FC = 13
Lvl 2: 13 + 6 + Con + FC = 22
Lvl 3: 22 + 6 + Con + FC = 31? hmm Maybe I goofed somewhere?


You have a build quite similar to the paladin in the group I GM. She has the same problem.

How she solves it:
3 ranks in acrobatics.
The feat Shield of Swings (it has saved her life a number of times)
Combine Shield of Swings with Fighting Defensively and 3ranks in acrobatics.

Other things that help her:
Barkskin (your druid should be able to help alot in that department).
Shield spell (she has a cracked vibrant purple ioun stone), although getting the shield spell into the ioun stone might be a problem if you do not have a wizard (or a cleric with the defense subdomain) in the group.

To save yourself before combat have a heavy shield and then drop it in the first round of combat (move action).
Example:
Hold greatsword in one hand (not available for use)
Hold Heavy shield in other hand
Bad guys get drop on you in surprise round or first round of combat.
You drop shield (move action)
Switch to full grip on greatsword (free action)
Make attack (fight defensively if necessary for -4attack and +3AC)

Another thing, I wouldnt take the energy favored class bonus. It is easy to get that through other methods. Take the HP bonus instead.

- Gauss


K. Thank you all for the tips. I now know about total defense and fighting defensively. I have re-done my stats and will pick up a shield and some barkskin pots. I was not very happy with my decision to play a Paladin, but i believe with all the help here, it will make a big difference.


Your paladin is fine. If you are going to go sword & board, swap your dex and con. Less hit points, but improved shield bash and TWF will deal awesome damage when you smite...


dmoe82: why would you pick up Barkskin potions? You have a druid in the party.

Dabbler: I don't think he is going sword and board. My suggestion was that he have a shield for the start of combat. With no perception and a poor intitative bonus he is going to get smacked around once or twice before he gets a chance to act. A shield at the start of combat will help. He can then drop it as a move action and start smacking them back. At that point he can switch to fighting defensively in order to boost his AC. He cannot do that before he acts.

- Gauss

Scarab Sages

Yeah, this stinks of the DM picking on you for being a paladin. Paladins are REALLY tough, and getting hit by that many attacks at level 3 seems... like the DM was being a punk, to put it lightly. I'd talk to him about it, because Paladins are AMAZING.


Davor, I am not sure that is the case. The paladin in my group puts herself in harm's way. That is the nature of being a paladin. Since she is not a Sword and Board paladin her AC suffers. Her main means to boost that AC require her to act during combat. In a surprise round (and, if she loses the initiative check, the first round) she is at great risk. Afterwards, not so much.

- Gauss

Scarab Sages

Gauss wrote:

Davor, I am not sure that is the case. The paladin in my group puts herself in harm's way. That is the nature of being a paladin. Since she is not a Sword and Board paladin her AC suffers. Her main means to boost that AC require her to act during combat. In a surprise round (and, if she loses the initiative check, the first round) she is at great risk. Afterwards, not so much.

- Gauss

dmoe82 wrote:


Not sure of your Familiar with the Sasserine Mod. But so far we just fought some diseased Pirates. 3 Rushed me and killed me in 1 shot. Granted they all hit twice, and 4 hits got through for like 24 points of damage and killed me.

A DM throws 3 pouncing, dual-wielding pirates on a single PC at level 3. That seems pretty indicative of purposeful PC destruction.

Don't get me wrong, I understand a paladin should be taking the hits, but there comes a point where a DM is just being mean, and this sounds like one of those instances.


Davor, later he stated that he was mistaken.

- Gauss


This was at level 2. We leveled to 3 after that fight. 3 charged and each landed 1 hit each.

And i changed my stats once again:

Con to 14
Wis to 8

Having the odd number on con makes no sense. And only a -1 on wisdom is better.

And im not sure if our druid is going to be able to make barkskins or not.

So heres my thoughts:
Buy some pots of shield of faith, 50gp each.
If i find a shield i will use one, but since it doesnt stack with the pots, i wont waste the gold on one.

I am mainly going for 2 handed Greatsword, may use a shield for initial round.

And me getting killed by the first attack was partly my fault, should have use the guisarme and braced for their charge. Like i mentioned, still learning.


dmoe82 wrote:


So heres my thoughts:
Buy some pots of shield of faith, 50gp each.
If i find a shield i will use one, but since it doesnt stack with the pots, i wont waste the gold on one.

I am mainly

Shield of Faith is a Deflection bonus to your AC, Shields are a Shield bonus. Different bonuses stack.


K. Level 7 now. Paladin has been running great. Recently picked up a +1 animated heavy shield. I now have 24 AC with the shield while it is on me or animated. Havent died since the mess i mentioned above. Still rocking a now +1 Greatsword. Doing good dmg and staying alive much easier with my gear and a potion when needed.

Have like 68 HP. Thanks again to those above for all the tips. And ignoring my spelling mistake starting this thread. Paladin Quetion? Lol

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