I have a player playing a magus, and he's very fond of the Vorpal spell effect that they can enchant their weapon with.
My question is: does anyone think that the ability to enchant a weapon with Vorpal at 5th level for about 6 rounds at a time (given a decent int bonus) sounds a little broken? Most combats don't last much longer than 6 rounds, and if someone is particularly lucky it can get ridiculous. I've had to GM fiat a couple just because they would've completely derailed things.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the magus.
A magus can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.
It says it consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's base price modifier. Since Vorpal is a +5, he needs to be level 17 in order to add it. Int modifier has no effect on it, it only affects how much Arcane pool points he has.
So to answer your question, yes it's broken. But on the other hand, that's not how it works. Might want to mention that you only have a +2, and can only exchange that for an equivalent enhancement such as Shocking Burst, etc. or alternatively, a +1 and Shocking or equivalent enhancement.
nah, its not broken. shoot its not even necessary, he can pretty much one hit anything at 5th level anyway, i mean maximized 8d6 shocking grasp at a 15-20 crit range is more then enough for any cr 8-10 and it uses fewer resources to do it.
THATS what you should be scared of.
That requires more resources. On top of a Keen weapon, you'd need a rod of metamagic. Then feats, traits, and some other things I can't think of.
Actually it's just one point off the arcane pool at level 17. From my understanding of Arcane Pool, the cost of enhancing your weapon does not change. It will be 1 point at level 1 for +1 and still be 1 point at level 17 for +5 or Vorpal. But yes, getting it before then is still horridly expensive, and then becomes moot in about 3 levels.
Paying 1 point to give your weapon vorpal is not broken for a level 17 Magus (as its supposed to be)... you need to take a look at what the ability does more closely TC as there are level requirements as to what your player can place on his weapon with that class feature.
That requires more resources. On top of a Keen weapon, you'd need a rod of metamagic. Then feats, traits, and some other things I can't think of.nah, its not broken. shoot its not even necessary, he can pretty much one hit anything at 5th level anyway, i mean maximized 8d6 shocking grasp at a 15-20 crit range is more then enough for any cr 8-10 and it uses fewer resources to do it.
THATS what you should be scared of.
Swap maximize rod for empower and the price is around 11k with the +1 wep to do and still is pretty scary.
Where are you getting 8d6 for a shocking grasp from a 5th level character? Pretty sure Empowered would round down to 7d6 total, and you'd still need a metamagic rod to do it, as 5th is too low to cast 3rd level spells or get the Empower arcana.
That aside, one arcana point for keen and a 1st level spell that can do 10d6 30% of the time is still pretty nice... plus I think you'd still get the extra plus to hit vs people with lots of metal.
Where are you getting 8d6 for a shocking grasp from a 5th level character? Pretty sure Empowered would round down to 7d6 total, and you'd still need a metamagic rod to do it, as 5th is too low to cast 3rd level spells or get the Empower arcana.
That aside, one arcana point for keen and a 1st level spell that can do 10d6 30% of the time is still pretty nice... plus I think you'd still get the extra plus to hit vs people with lots of metal.
I am guessing spell specialization for +2 Cl
and either gifted adept or varisian tattoo for +1 Clthen intensified for letting it get above 5d6
Never looked at/used traits, and forgot about those feats. Thanks for pointing them out to me.
Ah, I didn't notice the part that mentioned that, thanks for pointing that out!
definitely not broken, in that case. I just wish they would've separated the bonuses into levels as written - it'd cause less confusion.
That requires more resources. On top of a Keen weapon, you'd need a rod of metamagic. Then feats, traits, and some other things I can't think of.nah, its not broken. shoot its not even necessary, he can pretty much one hit anything at 5th level anyway, i mean maximized 8d6 shocking grasp at a 15-20 crit range is more then enough for any cr 8-10 and it uses fewer resources to do it.
THATS what you should be scared of.
Best to check here how easy it really is to have the scimitar/shocking grasp thing:
It takes zero metamagic rods, and two feats the player should take anyway. (Empowered Spell and Imp Crit Scimitar)
P.S. I know because I made one such magus. Big fun and lotsa d6's to roll each round
|
Something you might want to put onto an index card for Magus players:
Cost: +1
Flaming
Frost
Keen
Shock
Cost: +2
Flaming Burst
Icy Burst
Shocking Burst
Cost: +3
Speed
Cost: +4
Dancing
Cost: +5
Vorpal
To be honest, Keen and Speed, IMO, are about the only enhancements worth spending enhancement bonus for, other than the straight improvement to weapon enhancement.
Remember that the Magus has to burn at least +1 to the weapon itself as a pure enhancement, if the weapon is not already got at least a +1 enhancement of its own.
At 5th level, +1 to the enhancement and Keen is ugly, especially with a scimitar.
High-level Blade Bound Magus has other choices to make, of course, since his weapon is already +5, so keen, speed and one of the energy damage types is probably most common a that point for a Blade Bound Magus, although a +5 Vorpal scimitar could be ugly.
|
It costs 5 points from your arcance pool to put the vorpal enchantment on your weapon for 1 round per level if you select the enduring blade arcana [which I highkly recomend] ths increases to 1 miniute per magus level. I personaly have never used the vorpal enchantment as you have to roll a 20 to get the head lopping off and it does not stack with keen or imp crit I have only used an enchament effect of higher than +2 once in 10 levels I used danceing as my magus was knocked below 0 to defed him, its much more effective to use your arcane pool to get back high damage spells.
although a +5 Vorpal scimitar could be ugly.
Vorpal only activates on a natural 20, not a crit so a high crit build wouldn't benefit at all.
It costs 5 points from your arcance pool to put the vorpal enchantment on your weapon for 1 round per level if you select the enduring blade arcana [which I highkly recomend] ths increases to 1 miniute per magus level.
Also I think you read the Arcana pool ability wrong. You only spend 1 point to buff your weapon, its just that the plus you can get increases as you level. The way its worded could be a little unclear, but after the description of how you can choose your enchantments it says "These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses this ability." That seems to point to that only 1 point always was intended even if the wording early could be construed as ambiguous... or they could have already went over this officially and said that you're right and I'm wrong, I have no idea :P
|
|
At my PFS lodge all the Magus players have always read the enchament rule to read that you spend one arcane point per enhancement bouns of the effect that you wnat to put on your blade and it stas in effect until it expires in rounds or minutes per level or until you change te enhancement effect. otherwise it would be completly broken. You have to look at the totalaty of all the wording of the paragrah that describes the enhancment bonuses and all of the arcana that have been writen by Pazio and the third party authors. Some people nit pick the rules to try to exapndthe power of a given ability whne its fairly clear that the enchancement effect costs 1 point from the arcane pool for each point of enhancement bonus other wise why wold anyone buy the feat extra arcane pool?
The empower spell does not increase dice it increases the damage. In other words you roll the damage, and multiply the result by 1.5.
why wold anyone buy the feat extra arcane pool?
Spell Recall is the obvious answer here.
I have another question about the vorpal ability. right now i'm playing a bladebound magus lv 12. his archetype makes his weapon already count as a +3. also he can use his arcane pool to make it a +6 weapon (i know that it only counts as a +5 in combat). so does that mean that by consuming 5 enhancement points on it (the +3 he got from his arcane pool, and 2 of the 3 from his black blade) that he could end up with a +1 vorpal weapon? or is it against the rules to consume enhancement bonuses that weren't granted from the arcane pool?
on a side note, my weapon is dedicated to killing all humans (im playing a strix, they naturally hate humans). also it's a keen weapon. does having a purpose and a magical ability increase the ego for a black blade? according to the archetype table at lv 12 it already has an ego of 14. having a special purpose (killing a certain race) would add another 2, and having a +1 magic ability (keen) would make it an ego of 17. i only ask this because being keen and wanting to kill a certain race isn't already calculated into the base ego of the black blade
My question is: does anyone think that the ability to enchant a weapon with Vorpal at 5th level for about 6 rounds at a time (given a decent int bonus) sounds a little broken?It would be if you actually COULD. But consider the following.
1. At 6th level you can add +2 total to a weapon in qualities and/or enhancement.
2. Before you give a weapon anything else it must have at least a +1 enchancement bonus.
3. The Vorpal Quality unless the DM is using Sixth Sunday of the Month discount rules costs +5 worth of quality, which is something you can't swing as a Magus until you are 17th level.
But are you allowed to consume your weapons natural enhancement bonuses? For instance a lv 5 magus with a normal weapon could only add +2 to it's weapon, and since you need to keep +1 that means you could only add flaming, keen, shocking, or frost. but say you had a lv 5 magus who had a +2 weapon. the weapon already has a magical enhancement, so you can use the additional +2 that you can enhance it to add shocking burst, frost burst, or flame burst.
now MY question is can that lv 5 magus also use 1 point from his weapon (also using the 2 from enhancing his weapon due to his arcane pool) to make his weapon a speed weapon?
Say your lvl 12 with a +3 weapon. You can do the following.
Make it +5 keen, +4 shocking burst, or +4 fiery keen.
He cannot use part of the existing +3 and make it +3 keen shocking burst.
Basically you need to pay for +1 and add your other stuff. The existing enchantment on the sword really doesn't matter. In simpler terms a lvl 12 Magus can add the same thing to the +3 weapon as to a non magic weapon.
Say your lvl 12 with a +3 weapon. You can do the following.
Make it +5 keen, +4 shocking burst, or +4 fiery keen.
He cannot use part of the existing +3 and make it +3 keen shocking burst.
Basically you need to pay for +1 and add your other stuff. The existing enchantment on the sword really doesn't matter. In simpler terms a lvl 12 Magus can add the same thing to the +3 weapon as to a non magic weapon.
If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. (copy and pasted)
I agree with the first part of what you said (makes sense, thanks for clearing that up), but I have to disagree with the second. I believe as long as your weapon is already enhanced you can use the entire enhancement bonus to just give it magical properties. my reason for that is otherwise a magus could never make their weapon vorpal. you can't add +5 to the weapon until lv 17, so TECHNICALLY you couldn't add 6 until lv 21 (which almost no pathfinder game goes to)
You can't change a +1 from your weapon into something else- but there should be no prohibition on saying "I have a +2 weapon, so i can add flaming- i don't also have to add a +1 onto it to make it +3 flaming"
At least, if I understand the question right?
-S
But are you allowed to consume your weapons natural enhancement bonuses? For instance a lv 5 magus with a normal weapon could only add +2 to it's weapon, and since you need to keep +1 that means you could only add flaming, keen, shocking, or frost. but say you had a lv 5 magus who had a +2 weapon. the weapon already has a magical enhancement, so you can use the additional +2 that you can enhance it to add shocking burst, frost burst, or flame burst.now MY question is can that lv 5 magus also use 1 point from his weapon (also using the 2 from enhancing his weapon due to his arcane pool) to make his weapon a speed weapon?
Why would you ever assume you can cannibalize your weapon's bonuses? I mean nothing in the rules says anything about that whatsoever so it's pretty clear that you can't. Any bonuses on the weapon stay there of course but you can't eat them up and change them randomly.
Also vorpal and keen don't work together vorpal goes off on a natural 20 only and keen increases crit range, vorpal does not go off with any crit.
The reason you can use vorpal at 17th is because the preexisting magic properties remain so a +1 sword is +1 therefore adding vorpal to it is kosher and costs you your maximum 5 points but you're right a Magus couldn't pick up a mundane sword and make it vorpal regardless of level.
And no you can't use speed at level 5 for the exact same reason you can't do vorpal you can't consume bonuses, speed is a +3 weapon property therefore you need at least a +3 only from your arcane pool in order to use it.
1: My original assumption of cannibalizing my weapons bonus is because of the magus's ability to consume the bonus he adds (but now i agree that only works on the points he adds with his arcane pool).
2: I am aware of vorpal only beheading on a nat 20
3: Yes that was my question why my lv 12 magus could make his +3 weapon into a +3 flaming/frost bursting weapon.
Thanks so much everybody, i have a much better understanding of the enhancing ability of the magus now.
Although my question about my sentient weapons ego wasn't answered. As per the table of the Bladebound Magus, my weapon has an ego of 14 since I am lv 12. However, my weapon also has two things about it that aren't included or mentioned on the Bladebound table. It's a keen weapon and it wants to wipe out the human race. The normal intelligent items table says the keen quality normally increases an intelligent items ego by 1, and wanting to eliminate a race normally increases it by 2. I know that the black blade a bladebound magus wields doesn't have normal ego progression, but since my weapon has extra abilities on it not noted on the table will it still increase the ego?
|
Although my question about my sentient weapons ego wasn't answered. As per the table of the Bladebound Magus, my weapon has an ego of 14 since I am lv 12. However, my weapon also has two things about it that aren't included or mentioned on the Bladebound table. It's a keen weapon and it wants to wipe out the human race. The normal intelligent items table says the keen quality normally increases an intelligent items ego by 1, and wanting to eliminate a race normally increases it by 2. I know that the black blade a bladebound magus wields doesn't have normal ego progression, but since my weapon has extra abilities on it not noted on the table will it still increase the ego?
As I understand it: "Due to its flexible and powerful nature, a black blade has a nonstandard ego progression." I think you just use the Ego on the table without modification.
By way of comparison, the Black Blade has a specific Ego at various levels, BUT the intelligent weapon rules don't have any sort of base Ego -- instead the intelligent weapon rules have you add up a variety of Ego modifiers to determine the weapon's Ego Score.
Although my question about my sentient weapons ego wasn't answered. As per the table of the Bladebound Magus, my weapon has an ego of 14 since I am lv 12. However, my weapon also has two things about it that aren't included or mentioned on the Bladebound table. It's a keen weapon and it wants to wipe out the human race. The normal intelligent items table says the keen quality normally increases an intelligent items ego by 1, and wanting to eliminate a race normally increases it by 2. I know that the black blade a bladebound magus wields doesn't have normal ego progression, but since my weapon has extra abilities on it not noted on the table will it still increase the ego?As I understand it: "Due to its flexible and powerful nature, a black blade has a nonstandard ego progression." I think you just use the Ego on the table without modification.
By way of comparison, the Black Blade has a specific Ego at various levels, BUT the intelligent weapon rules don't have any sort of base Ego -- instead the intelligent weapon rules have you add up a variety of Ego modifiers to determine the weapon's Ego Score.
Hmm that kinda makes sense, but you think a lv 12 black blade without modifications would have a lower ego than a lv 12 vorpal black blade. also since it's ego is equal to the will save i need to make to keep control, i only need to roll like a 3 to keep control (magus has good will saves and i have a cloak of resistance).
|
|
Every black blade has a special purpose, which is already included in the blade's ego.
If your GM added Keen to the blade for free, there isn't any real official way to calculate the ego. I'd just bump the ego by whatever the enhancement bonus equivalent would be (i.e. Keen = +1 ego, Vorpal = +5 ego).
If the black blade is getting anything other than what's on the table. You are basically in dm judgement.
If the black blade is getting anything other than what's on the table. You are basically in dm judgement.
Yup, by the nature of the black blade you can't actually enchant it with any other power then what the blade itself adds.
Weird rule but that's how it goes.
Haha Mojorat that's always a good way to go.
Mathwei why can't you further enchant the black blade? It being a sentient item doesn't mean it can't be enchanted.
You can't further enchant the black blade because it is not an item, it is a class feature that acts as an item. You wouldn't be able to enchant arcane bonded items, either, if it wasn't actually spelled out in the rules for them.
|
|
Mathwei why can't you further enchant the black blade? It being a sentient item doesn't mean it can't be enchanted.
It's more a class feature than a magic item.
It will eventually be a +5 weapon. The magus will eventually have an additional +5 of special abilities to add. Since the max is +10, if you could add something else to the sword, you'd eventually get to the point where you couldn't use all of the bonus granted by your arcane pool.
How would you determine what the cost of adding an additional enchantment would be? Is it a +5 sword that's just pretending to be less powerful until it thinks the wielder is ready? Given it's odd ego progression, how would anything added increase its ego?