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So, I have a monk who is themed as a fisticuffs/bare knuckle brawler kind of guy. (think "Gangs of New York" here.)
One thing that I have always avoided is getting him brass knuckles or cesti because they do less damage than a monk's Unarmed Strike. I don't really get the way that works, or why they were added as monk weapons. I can't understand why anyone would use them, in that case. I understand that a cestus can do piercing damage, but, that doesn't seem all that worth it, unless one happens to be fighting a whole lot of skeletons or something.
They can be enhanced to bypass DR, but the your unarmed attacks do more damage otherwise.
If you really just care about the bareknuckle brawler concept, and don't really care about being a monk, fighters and probably barbarians do more damage with unarmed strikes despite the monk have more base damage.
I would give a fighter the cestus. You can also go with the weapon master archetype for even more damage, but you will lose out of AC.
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They can be enhanced to bypass DR, but the your unarmed attacks do more damage otherwise.
I know this is going to sound really lame (this is the only monk I ever made), but considering that a monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons, couldn't that be done directly to a monk's fists?
If you really just care about the bareknuckle brawler concept, and don't really care about being a monk, fighters and probably barbarians do more damage with unarmed strikes despite the monk have more base damage.
Well, it mostly *is* about concept, but, he's a 2nd level monk right now, and I'd planned on Monk (Martial Artist Archetype)4th/Fighter 5+.
I'd tried doing some research for it, and mostly came to the conclusion that a Monk was going to be better at Unarmed Fighting than a Fighter, mostly because getting the IUS feats isn't quite the same as monk ability. And then there's the whole grappling thing.
Fist can't be enhanced. Sorry about the late reply.
All a fighter has to do is use the cestus. The monk is not any better at grappling either.
Pretty much what wraithstrike said. You can make an effective monk, but you have to go maneuvers as well as unarmed strikes and use them cleverly. Amulet of mighty fists is sadly the best enhancement you can get for your unarmed strikes, and it is essential.
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Hmm ... well, I know it's probably an under-powered theme character ...
But, I went with "Improved Dirty Fighting". I originally had the concept for the character way back in 3.5, and was intending to use "Dirty fighting from Sword and Fist. So, I figured that was a pretty good equivalent.
I liked the idea of maybe making him a monk/rogue, and getting sneak attack to go with it, and using "Feinting Flurry" ... that'd be kind of cool, too. Rogue levels would kind of go with the dastardly, scoudrel, lying, cheating, no-good, Sczarni kind of fellow that I want him to be. But ... I'm not that good at builds, and I don't know how a monk/rogue would really work.
The human fighter with his improved CMD to grappling is damn near impossible to escape if he puts his mind to it.
For me I like cestus better if more of my damage is coming from bonuses than from base dice. This is due to the increased critical hit range.
If you go with unarmed strike instead of cestus then I suggest mantis style.
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The human fighter with his improved CMD to grappling is damn near impossible to escape if he puts his mind to it.
I'm embarassed to admit that you lost me here, Abraham. I'm not really all that good at the whole niche-build thing, so ...
Why does a human fighter have a better CMD than any other fighter? Or, why does a fighter get an improved CMD than someone else? Are you referring to feats?
Brass Knuckles and Cesti are less useful for monks than for other class wanting to use these weapons. The damage output that a monk gains from his unarmed strike outclasses the output of any weapon, really. They're simple weapons, so many classes have proficiency with them, and they're monk weapons mainly because they are flavorful weapons that a monk could potentially use, especially if you want to cut down damage (so as not to kill a target immediately), but are not recommended if you want high damage, which is what it seems you want. More or less, you can use the other monk weapons to change your damage type if you needed to. As well as this, as others have pointed out, you can magically enhance weapons with special properties, such as frost or ghost touch. You cannot do this to your fists with any degree of permanency, since your fists only count as manufactured weapons for the purposes of spells and effects.
FYI: Skeletons have DR/bludgeoning, so a piercing weapon would be mostly ineffective against such creatures.
No, I think he means favoured class bonuses. A human fighter can gain a bonus to CMD vs two maneuvers every level if they choose.
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FYI: Skeletons have DR/bludgeoning, so a piercing weapon would be mostly ineffective against such creatures.
Whoops ... d'oh.
I clearly had a case of cerebral flatulence. Yeah. DR/Bludgeoning is obvious. I was ... no, I don't know what I was thinking. I had it backwards. :)No, I think he means favoured class bonuses. A human fighter can gain a bonus to CMD vs two maneuvers every level if they choose.
Ah, I see. Makes sense.
Any suggestions about taking levels in rogue in combination with this concept and/or weapons?
I don't think a rogue is going to help at all. If you want to use weapons, but want to keep the monk I would go with the temple sword.
If you want sneak attack for damage you are better off just using a full BAB class to help the monk push DPR or just stay with the monk.
If you just want sneak attack for concept then I guess you are better off describing your attacks as sneak attacks.
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Hmm ... well, yeah ... I guess it was mostly for flavor. I figured that sneak attaack damage would be a great way to work on a Haymaker Punch, or something.
That's why I was looking into the brass knuckles and/or cestus. I wanted to be able to have a weapon that hit really hard (enchantments?) that I could really push the damage up with. Maybe my original idea of using an (Unarmed) Fighter build beyond fourth level is best. I'm still struggling with feats, though. I was thinking of:
And going up into higher levels:
Other than that, I am kind of at a loss.
Other than a crit it is hard to represent a haymaker(knockout blow), or one hit kill in PF. The martial artist monk puts out good damage if built well, but not as mush as TWF'ing fighter with a cestus.
I like Jawbreaker because it really hurts spellcaster once you get to them.
So, I have a monk who is themed as a fisticuffs/bare knuckle brawler kind of guy. (think "Gangs of New York" here.)
One thing that I have always avoided is getting him brass knuckles or cesti because they do less damage than a monk's Unarmed Strike. I don't really get the way that works, or why they were added as monk weapons. I can't understand why anyone would use them, in that case. I understand that a cestus can do piercing damage, but, that doesn't seem all that worth it, unless one happens to be fighting a whole lot of skeletons or something.
The following line from the description of Brass Knuckles (APG pg. 176) makes them awesome for Monks:
"Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk
unarmed damage when fighting with them."
So Brass Knuckles give you your full Monk damage and can be made of special materials and enchanted like any other weapon. What's not to like?
Sadly, the Cestus doesn't have the same line, so you're stuck with their damage rating...
The brass knuckles are going to be errata'd like they were in the equipment book. SKR has already said that line was an error.
In short if the GM goes by intent, and not by RAW the brass knuckles won't help, which is why I did not mention them.
edit: One of many links
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The brass knuckles are going to be errata'd like they were in the equipment book. SKR has already said that line was an error.
In short if the GM goes by intent, and not by RAW the brass knuckles won't help, which is why I did not mention them.
edit: One of many links
<shrugs> OK, so maybe it's no good for a PFS game, but we don't religiously follow errata and developer FAQs at my table. If a rule changes from what's in the book I bought, I'll probably never know about it unless I stumble upon it on some random thread here.
Anyway, to me the line in question makes sense, and will likely be extended to cestus and the like in our games. Having to say "I'm sorry, the plated spiky gloves you're wearing make your attack do less damage" seems more than a bit silly to me...
You can make an effective monk, but you have to go maneuvers as well as unarmed strikesFalse. CMD for the average monster far outscales your grapple's growth. You lose a monk's AC (which doesn't replace armor and can't be enchanted) to every other target but the restrained when in a grapple (and lose that to everything if the grapple goes sour).
That's only an issue with grapple, though, and I have found that when you face a single foe (as you often do in boss-fights) grapple can still be handy. The main maneuvers to use are disarm and trip: Trip foe, foe loses action getting up. Attack of opportunity to dissarm foe, foe is now standing without his weapon. Not effective against everything, but it can work.
One thing to do is take one of the style feat-trees that will get you a lot of attacks of opportunity. Panther style, crane style and snake style are all great for this.
Making a Monk effective is a matter of archetypes. Hungry Ghost Qingong Sensei and Zen Archer being the primary wins. Master of Many Styles and Sohei (Mounted Skirmisher with no requirements is just one of the tricks it opens up for you) are dipable.
Core monk can work, but it takes a lot of work.
You can make an effective monk, but you have to go maneuvers as well as unarmed strikesFalse. CMD for the average monster far outscales your grapple's growth. You lose a monk's AC (which doesn't replace armor and can't be enchanted) to every other target but the restrained when in a grapple (and lose that to everything if the grapple goes sour).
Can you show me where it states you lose your monk AC bonuses while grappling? All I can find is that the grappled condition gives you a -4 to Dex:
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
Not just grapple that is an issue (and Disarm is useless against anything that doesn't wield a manufactured weapon, which is a lot).
Definitely true. If you are in an urban campaign where humanoid foes dominate it' a good combo. Outside of that, you need to get the best AoMF you can afford and hammer away with stunning fist, and also use your skills such as they are for an advantage.
CMD is based on BAB and size, which thanks to enemies having a LOT more hit die and being bigger than the average, is fairly high compared to your monk level+whatever bonuses, on the average enemy.
It depends on what you are fighting. Maneuvers make you good against what they will work on, which is better than nothing. After that you need to work on flanking and using speed and terrain. I did say it was hard work...
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They can be enhanced to bypass DR, but the your unarmed attacks do more damage otherwise.I know this is going to sound really lame (this is the only monk I ever made), but considering that a monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons, couldn't that be done directly to a monk's fists?
It depends on the effect. The spell Magic Weapon will indeed work on your fists directly, as will the Paladin's Divine Bond ability if you've got levels in Paladin and Monk.
However, you can get, say, a cold iron cestus to bypass a faerie's DR, while you can't make your fists cold iron. You also can't pay 2,000 gold to make your punches do an extra 1d6 fire damage, but you can pay to add the flaming quality to a masterwork brass knuckle.
You ever see in a martial arts movie or anime, where the kung fu master catches a sword in his bare hands and breaks it? Well, that's the idea here-- as a monk, your bare hands are an improvement over metal weapons. Your fists are such finely tuned instruments that wrapping then in bulky iron basically just slows them down.
The only real advantage to using a monk weapon is that you can carry around a bunch of different enchanted ones to bypass different DR's, or exploit different elemental weaknesses/resistances. Or if you can stack enough enchantments on one weapon that it surpasses your unenhanced fists (the vicious or axiomatic enchantments are good for this).
Lore Warden is freakin awesome at Manuveres.
Go with a TWF Duel Cesti build take lunge and done.
Question why do people think that brass knuckles in the hands of a monk nerf their unarmed strike?
Brass Knuckles: These close combat weapons are designed to fit comfortably around the knuckles, narrowing the contact area and therefore magnifying the amount of force delivered by a punch. They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.
All I see is the ability to put an a amulet of mighty fists with +5 in weapons enchanments and put upto a +5 enchantment bonus on the knuckles to get the full +5/+5 all other weapons get.
Makes since to me for a monk to have them.
The brass knuckles are going to be errata'd like they were in the equipment book. SKR has already said that line was an error.
Well, that's good, 'cause Monks are too crazy good at what they do, so getting any benefit from Brass Knuckles would just be all kinds of broken.
Anyhow, back to the top Fighter Unarmed/Brass Knuckle builds.
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Can you show me where it states you lose your monk AC bonuses while grappling?He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.While never outright stated (mostly because "immobilized" never appears in the rules outside of Monk AC and Uncanny Dodge), pinning someone causes you to lose your dexterity bonus to AC and be unable to move freely.
Two points -- not to be a jerk, but so that rules are clearly stated:
1. Pinning isn't general grappling. However you do lose your dex bonus to AC while pinning someone, but...
2.
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
He isn't immoblized or helpless, so retains his monk bonuses to AC.
I do agree that means a somewhat lower AC and unfortunately CMD which is probably something we should mark as an FAQ or potential errata issue because pinning someone shouldn't make it easier for them to get up.
I agree it's an odd area and have FAQ'ed your post in the other thread. If you would be so kind as to FAQ your above post about the making it easier to escape a pin by removing their dex bonus to the CMD above I think that could help clear up some more areas about grappling too.
The brass knuckles are going to be errata'd like they were in the equipment book. SKR has already said that line was an error.Well, that's good, 'cause Monks are too crazy good at what they do, so getting any benefit from Brass Knuckles would just be all kinds of broken.
Anyhow, back to the top Fighter Unarmed/Brass Knuckle builds.
You're joking right? I may have pointed the ruling out in this thread, but I don't like it. The only reason I pointed it out is because I don't the player to get it, and then have the GM come here and see it, and then take it away. I allow it my games.
Question why do people think that brass knuckles in the hands of a monk nerf their unarmed strike?
Brass Knuckles: These close combat weapons are designed to fit comfortably around the knuckles, narrowing the contact area and therefore magnifying the amount of force delivered by a punch. They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.
All I see is the ability to put an a amulet of mighty fists with +5 in weapons enchanments and put upto a +5 enchantment bonus on the knuckles to get the full +5/+5 all other weapons get.
Makes since to me for a monk to have them.
My last post pointed out errata in a book saying that what you bolded was an error.
I dropped out of that thread a while ago, but last I heard, SKR also said you can only Flurry with a Monk Weapon once, too. So the Brass Knuckles/Cesti is still kind of anti-Monk.
I might be behind on my errata then -- last I heard they were monk weapons but you didn't get your unarmed strike damage with them. So you could flurry but you aren't going to get the better damage.
Flurry has no official errata yet. SKR and the other Devs retracted the statement, as it interacted badly with certain archetypes.
I seems that even other employees at Paizo were unsure how flurry worked.
I meant that the cestus was even available to be flurried with -- ignoring the other non-sense going on with flurry of blows right now... maybe they'll have it figured out by the time I'm done with AIT.
If you can get the simple, unloved gauntlet on your flurry list; it is an exceptional and overlooked way to enhance your unarmed strikes.
If you can get the simple, unloved gauntlet on your flurry list; it is an exceptional and overlooked way to enhance your unarmed strikes.
How so? According to SKR monk can't use them to deliver unarmed strike damage either. In short, the cestus, brass knuckles, and guantlet have all been or will be shut down officially.
Now being a nice GM I would reccomend giving the monk some breathing room, and at least give him the brass knuckles or cestus so he can apply his unarmed strike damage.
Just that you can use all your feats with it because it counts as an unarmed strike, if you waltz around with a +1 cold iron gauntlet and a +1 silver gauntlet on for emergencies, you have a weapon that still benefits from weapon focus, etc, in an emergency. Or at least that is what I infer from "A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack".
1d3+X is most likely better than 1d8+x -10 versus some demon.
And it is still my preferred route for a two weapon fighting unarmed fighter.
Unfortunately that is part of the mystical nature of monks, their unarmed strike damage isn't just straight punching, it includes pokes, rakes, and pressure points.
Speaking of which if you decide to make a monk, levels of ninja are quite flavourful, and the talent pressure points amuses greatly.
For a dirty fighter type unarmed or brawler fighter probably would have been closer to what you where after.
Just that you can use all your feats with it because it counts as an unarmed strike, if you waltz around with a +1 cold iron gauntlet and a +1 silver gauntlet on for emergencies, you have a weapon that still benefits from weapon focus, etc, in an emergency. Or at least that is what I infer from "A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack".
1d3+X is most likely better than 1d8+x -10 versus some demon.
And it is still my preferred route for a two weapon fighting unarmed fighter.
My point, which I realize was not clear, is that the gauntlet does not help the monk, and it will be made clear soon enough.
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For a dirty fighter type unarmed or brawler fighter probably would have been closer to what you where after.
Well ... the only thing about it is the AC bonus, and fighting unarmored as well as unarmed. I don't have any problem with re-theming the monk to have the "flavor" I want ... but, in some sense it comes down to stats. I loathe the fact that this is so, but, I just can't figure why an unarmed fighter would do as well as a monk. Using the IUS feat isn't as good as the monk ability, right? While I guess I could wrap my head around a d3 if I had to, and I know there's more feats to do stuff with, it just doesn't seem to add up for me.
That said, I was planning on going monk4/fighter5+.
The fighter has class abilities, and feats that increase damage.
Now those +1's and +2's don't look like a lot, but they add up.
Another thing is that static bonuses count more for damage than a weapon's base damage.
As an example kukri are the best core weapon for TWF, but their base damage is only 1d4. Their crit range of 18-20 is also a factor though.
Just that you can use all your feats with it because it counts as an unarmed strike, if you waltz around with a +1 cold iron gauntlet and a +1 silver gauntlet on for emergencies, you have a weapon that still benefits from weapon focus, etc, in an emergency. Or at least that is what I infer from "A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack".
1d3+X is most likely better than 1d8+x -10 versus some demon.
And it is still my preferred route for a two weapon fighting unarmed fighter.
My point, which I realize was not clear, is that the gauntlet does not help the monk, and it will be made clear soon enough.
So they have ruled things like weapon focus and such do not help? Totally backwards from the stance 3.5 took at the end when they realized the help the monk needed :(