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It would seem that you can take both archetypes since they don't replace any common abilities.
I was just wondering how the Sensei ability:
At 6th level, a sensei may use his advice ability when spending points from his ki pool to activate a class ability (using the normal actions required for each) in order to have that ability affect one ally within 30 feet rather than the sensei himself. At 12th level, a sensei may affect all allies within 30 feet rather than himself (spending points from his ki pool only once, not once for each target).
interacted with the Qinggong's ability to have ki powers like true strike at 12th level. That is, can I spend 1 ki point to give every ally within 30 feet true strike? That's pretty cool.
What about other abilities like scorching ray? Do all my allies within 30 feet immediately cast the spell? That could get nasty pretty fast.
I would say that the two abilities don't interact at all, since the Sensei's ability specifies what powers can be shared
At 12th level, a sensei may instead spend 1 point from his ki pool (as a swift action) while using advice to provide a single ally within 30 feet with evasion, fast movement, high jump, purity of body, or slow fall. At 18th level, a sensei may spend 2 points to grant one of the abilities listed above to all allies within 30 feet, or diamond body, diamond soul, or improved evasion to a single ally within 30 feet. These abilities function at the sensei’s level and last 1 round.
This ability replaces the bonus feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th level.
Tem has the right of it -- the abilities that BigJohn42 lists are abilities that generally don't require a ki point to use to begin with and therefore had to be added on separately otherwise would have been impossible to use with this ability.
Tem has the right of it -- the abilities that BigJohn42 lists are abilities that generally don't require a ki point to use to begin with and therefore had to be added on separately otherwise would have been impossible to use with this ability.
Huh - well, if that's right, I think I've finally found a monk build that I may enjoy playing.
Tem has the right of it -- the abilities that BigJohn42 lists are abilities that generally don't require a ki point to use to begin with and therefore had to be added on separately otherwise would have been impossible to use with this ability.
As I was reading it, Tem wanted to use Mystic Wisdom to "share" the Qinggong's special ki abilities with the rest of the party. Unfortunately, the Sensei's ability doesn't say that it shares ki powers, but instead specifies what powers can be shared. I don't see any special synergy between these two classes at all.
Sensei cannot be used to give all allies True Strike, because what the Sensei can share is specified, and True Strike isn't on that list.
Wait until you see the Quicken Spell-Like ability feat.
Swift action => True Strike your whole team ! (Though honestly, by level 12, it is highly unlikely that martial classes will miss on their first attack, even without TS...)
you're not scratching the surfice. aoe restoration for free? awesome!!
barkskin? sweet!! swift reroll for one round on fort saves? my gawd!!team whirlwind attack????? too much!!! team quivering palm!!
/feint
*5 minutes later* sorry i passed out from all the awesomeness.
Tem has the right of it -- the abilities that BigJohn42 lists are abilities that generally don't require a ki point to use to begin with and therefore had to be added on separately otherwise would have been impossible to use with this ability.As I was reading it, Tem wanted to use Mystic Wisdom to "share" the Qinggong's special ki abilities with the rest of the party. Unfortunately, the Sensei's ability doesn't say that it shares ki powers, but instead specifies what powers can be shared. I don't see any special synergy between these two classes at all.
Sensei cannot be used to give all allies True Strike, because what the Sensei can share is specified, and True Strike isn't on that list.
At 6th level, a sensei may use his advice ability when spending points from his ki pool to activate a class ability (using the normal actions required for each) in order to have that ability affect one ally within 30 feet rather than the sensei himself. At 12th level, a sensei may affect all allies within 30 feet rather than himself (spending points from his ki pool only once, not once for each target).
sorry man you misread the ability
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Sensei cannot be used to give all allies True Strike, because what the Sensei can share is specified, and True Strike isn't on that list.
Except that the second part provides a list of abilities that the sensei may "instead" provide to his allies ; with the normal use being by sharing "a class ability". And qinggong provides powers as class abilities.
*5 minutes later* sorry i passed out from all the awesomeness.
That's DAT MONK effect !
At 6th level, a sensei may use his advice ability when spending points from his ki pool to activate a class ability (using the normal actions required for each) in order to have that ability affect one ally within 30 feet rather than the sensei himself. At 12th level, a sensei may affect all allies within 30 feet rather than himself (spending points from his ki pool only once, not once for each target).
sorry man you misread the ability
So how much does it cost for a Sensei to let someone else use their "Inspire" ability, or "Insightful Strike"? Those are both class abilities.
how ever much the ki activation for the ability is.
how ever much the ki activation for the ability is.
Those don't have a ki activation cost.
I do now see how there's another reading for the ability, and apologize for that... but it does seem rather odd that the archtype that's based on sharing abilities wouldn't be able to share the specific abilities of that archtype.
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So how much does it cost for a Sensei to let someone else use their "Inspire" ability, or "Insightful Strike"? Those are both class abilities.At 6th level, a sensei may use his advice ability when spending points from his ki pool to activate a class ability (using the normal actions required for each) in order to have that ability affect one ally within 30 feet rather than the sensei himself. At 12th level, a sensei may affect all allies within 30 feet rather than himself (spending points from his ki pool only once, not once for each target).
sorry man you misread the ability
You can't, since you don't spend ki points to activate them.
i think you're misunderstanding how this ability reads, or i do...
this is how i read it:
"when using your bardic performance you may spend "x" ki points to grant a class feature, assuming you spent ki for that feature, to a target that meets the requirements of your bardic performance. the feature must use ki to activate."
"If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and such performances are language dependent. A deaf bard has a 20% change to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components."
You can't, since you don't spend ki points to activate them.
So since the only restriction is that it has to be a ki-based ability, would Ninja ki abilities work with this?
yes yes it would muhaha
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So since the only restriction is that it has to be a ki-based ability, would Ninja ki abilities work with this?
You can't, since you don't spend ki points to activate them.
Yep. Is it worth it for a 2/3 BAB class to dip two levels in another 2/3 BAB class just to get communal ninja tricks, when a spellcaster of same level is giving way more powerful buffs and battlefield control with his actions ? That's another question.
One thing of note about this combo is that Hungry Ghost is legal to combine with Sensei and Qinggong combines with anything. The ability to regain Ki is very nice.
I had missed that and it does look good on the surface, but you're giving up Qinggong powers to do it. Now you'll only get them at levels 4,5,12,15, etc. I highly doubt any game I play will go past 15th level, so after that it doesn't matter as much to me.
The first two abilities *must* come from the lowest tier and you don't get anything else new until 12th level. That might be giving up too much for my liking.
qinggong gets ki-leech at 10, no need to go hungry ghost.
Ok, follow up question then...
If I share scorching ray, for example, does the person I share it with use it as part of my action right away, or do they get the ability to use it as a standard action of their own some time over the next round?
With respect to true strike, you'd think they get the benefit right away, but with scorching ray, it would seem they need to "use" it on their own turn. Clearly it should be one way or the other - but I'm not exactly sure which.
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The qinggong power gives the ability to use Scorching Ray as a spell-like ability standard action for one round.
You use it by spending Ki points, and at the same time all allies may now spend a standard action during their round to use it, otherwise they lose this ability at the end of their turn. There usually are things deadlier to do for characters than a mass scorching ray.
wat you takin bout git?! 12d6x5 on touch ac, dats a one round killa. batter den a damn dakka gun!
I guess that's where the quicken spell-like ability feat comes in...
Awesome if there's a white dragon who just breathed on you.
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Actually, I believe that QSpA doesn't allow the allies to use this ability as a swift action. There is good and broken, and the swift action DAKA is obviously of the second category. It is also discutable whether you can use a power that doesn't "affect" you on others (while TS and Restoration do affect you instead of providing you a power).
You use it by spending Ki points, and at the same time all allies may now spend a standard action during their round to use it, otherwise they lose this ability at the end of their turn.
I can certainly see that reading of the rules, but in other cases, it would seem that the ally would get the benefit right away.
For example, if I wanted to share my "wholeness of body" ability, I'd have to spend a standard action and 2 ki points. Then, on my ally's turn, they'd have to spend *another* standard action to heal hp equal to my monk level.
With respect to that specific ability, it would make more sense if I just spend the standard action and 2 ki points, causing him to heal right away.
Again, I'm not sure which interpretation is correct, but the "intuitive" answer seems to be different for different abilities.
Actually, I believe that QSpA doesn't allow the allies to use this ability as a swift action. There is good and broken, and the swift action DAKA is obviously of the second category. It is also discutable whether you can use a power that doesn't "affect" you on others (while TS and Restoration do affect you instead of providing you a power).
Well, see, this is my point. True Strike, Restoration and Scorching Ray are all ki powers which are treated like spell like abilities. Why would we make different rulings for different abilities?
Actually, I believe that QSpA doesn't allow the allies to use this ability as a swift action. There is good and broken, and the swift action DAKA is obviously of the second category. It is also discutable whether you can use a power that doesn't "affect" you on others (while TS and Restoration do affect you instead of providing you a power).Well, see, this is my point. True Strike, Restoration and Scorching Ray are all ki powers which are treated like spell like abilities. Why would we make different rulings for different abilities?
We aren't -- the part you are missing is that the feat lets you do something you normally cannot do. It doesn't allow your allies to use the same feat you have however... it lets them use the ability as normal.
Now you can share the scorching ray or dragon's breath or restoration to your heart's content... but your allies using those abilities won't get the additional abilities feats provide you when you have those feats because the feats are actually separate from the ability itself.
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Actually, I believe that QSpA doesn't allow the allies to use this ability as a swift action. There is good and broken, and the swift action DAKA is obviously of the second category. It is also discutable whether you can use a power that doesn't "affect" you on others (while TS and Restoration do affect you instead of providing you a power).Well, see, this is my point. True Strike, Restoration and Scorching Ray are all ki powers which are treated like spell like abilities. Why would we make different rulings for different abilities?We aren't -- the part you are missing is that the feat lets you do something you normally cannot do. It doesn't allow your allies to use the same feat you have however... it lets them use the ability as normal.
Now you can share the scorching ray or dragon's breath or restoration to your heart's content... but your allies using those abilities won't get the additional abilities feats provide you when you have those feats because the feats are actually separate from the ability itself.
I have no problem with that part. My only sticking point right now is if I share an ability, do they get the benefit right away or do they also have to spend an action to use it.
Examples: I share Wholeness of Body with an ally by spending 2 ki and a standard action, do they
a) heal right away or
b) have the ability to use a standard action to heal themselves on their next turn
Clearly, the first is more useful and seems to make the most sense given the wording of Mystic Wisdom but if you replace "Wholeness of Body" with "Scorching Ray" do you get the same answer?
For balance reasons, I'd have to go with b), but I think the Mystic Wisdom ability would have been worded differently if that were the case.
You can also share something like Spring Attack, which a fighter can use to avoid AoO from most creatures with reach.
I think it's a) personally but I would have to research it some more.
Remember they don't have ki points to activate any of the abilities so it would be really useless to give them abilities if they can't use them. My current opinion is that you are basically either using the ability on them or giving them use of the feat involved with no action needed on their part.
But I could be wrong.
It doesn't say you give them the ability to activate it with their own ki points, it says have it affect one ally instead of yourself. You still have the ability, but it's affect is given to someone else.
It doesn't say you give them the ability to activate it with their own ki points, it says have it affect one ally instead of yourself. You still have the ability, but it's affect is given to someone else.
Yeah I just went back and reread it and fully agree with this -- it simply works on the ally. Which means you might not want to affect you ally with dragon's breath... they might not like it.
I agree that the sensei looks like he could be fun to play. Unfortunately their seems to be a fair amount of ambiguity as to how exactly his advice ability works. For example, I'm still trying to figure out exactly what happens if a sensei uses battlemind link with his advice ability. I actually started a similar thread here to try and get a better feel for how he works but never got all of my questions answered as well as I'd have liked.
It doesn't say you give them the ability to activate it with their own ki points, it says have it affect one ally instead of yourself. You still have the ability, but it's affect is given to someone else.Yeah I just went back and reread it and fully agree with this -- it simply works on the ally. Which means you might not want to affect you ally with dragon's breath... they might not like it.
Can you just declare all your enemies allies for a round? They get the advice bonus for a round.
Can you just declare all your enemies allies for a round? They get the advice bonus for a round.It doesn't say you give them the ability to activate it with their own ki points, it says have it affect one ally instead of yourself. You still have the ability, but it's affect is given to someone else.Yeah I just went back and reread it and fully agree with this -- it simply works on the ally. Which means you might not want to affect you ally with dragon's breath... they might not like it.
I'm going to cop out with a, "Ask your GM" on that one as this really falls into territory I'm not prepared to lend my voice to it one way or another.
I'm into the camp that you only apply powers to your allies if they are effectively -affecting you- in some way with a benefit (like Restoration) and not -providing you- with a special power (like Scorching Ray) ; or if it's a feat you gain for one round by spending Ki.
That certainly seems like a reasonable standpoint and one that I'd certainly like to support as well (particularly for balance issues). I just wish the language was clear and consistent with respect to which effects can or can't be shared.