After reading Oterisk's Duelist guide I really want to give one a try and would like to get some help from these forums.
We have a favorable Stat Set (17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10) and can expect a lot ofntough encounters.
I was thinking two levels of Master of many Styles and Six levels of Lore Warden fighter. Followed out with all of duelist and finished with fighter if we make it that high.
Leaning towards Elf or Half-elf and using a raipier or dagger (dervish dance has been overdone in my group and just as a manner of taste I want to avoid it. GM already said an agile weapon wont be to hard to find.)
I figured the levels of MoMS would be used to pick up Crane Style and Snake Style and would come at levels 2 and 3.
So basically any advice or even builds would be great. I always run into trouble when I start laying stuff out on paper.
This will be a Skull and Shackles game but we are starting at level 3. And all Pazio books are allowed, third party stuff has to be run by the GM.
Thanks in advance.
You know, I would skip all the pussying about with multiple classes and just go Free Hand Fighter for levels 1-6. You won't have the feats to take all the good ones for the different styles anyway, and it's better to follow one style than several which a fighter can do as well as a monk.
Or if you really want to go monk, ignore the rapier, use Snake Style and have your unarmed strike as your duelist weapon...
I was thinking monk for the bonus style feats, the save bump, wis to ac (giving me dex, int, and wis to ac) and if I am not mistaken Monk of the Sacred mountain stacks giving a +1 natural armorial ac.
That puts me ahead on ac, saves, and feats for the cost of +1 attack bonus and a couple hps.
All the bonus feats the maneuver master gets are also combat feats the fighter can select anyway. The saves are good, but not essential.
I just recently built an NPC Duelist to pit up against my party. She's a Free-Hand Fighter 4 with two levels of dip-age into Samurai for the 2nd Level Order of the Cockatrice ability (Braggart is hilariously fun!).
After qualifying for her Prestige Class, all her feats go into stuff that allows her to use her insanely good Charisma score in combat; feints, Dazzling Display as a move-action, combined with Shatter Defenses. She's also got crazy good mobility thanks to Spring Attack and Disengaging Feint. Overall, she's a really fun character and nasty when she's combined with the rest of her "Linear Guild."
Anyway, the point of my post is that most Prestige Classes have a nice start in what they can do, but ultimately they're only as interesting as the playstyle you decide to run with. So think of how you want your character to fight and pick the classes that best supports that while working on your way towards Duelist.
Your right about the combat feats, but with two levels of master of many styles/monk of the sacred mountains I get:
Improved Unarmed Strike (with a higher base damage)
Toughness (making up for the lower hit die, not great but good)
And 2 style feats (+ the ability to use them both at the same time)
That's 4 feats (all really good) and all the other monk goodies vs 1 combat feats and +1 attack bonus from fighter.
Makes sense.
Looks like a solid build, I was just wondering why you are going with 6 levels of Lore Warden. 5 qualify you for the Duelist class, 7 give you +2 to CMB, and the Know thy Enemy class feature. The only thing you get at level 6 is another bonus feat as far as I can tell. Need that extra feat for a Style feat or something?
The extra feat would be a reason to go six I guess. But honestly it was a mistake. Meant to say five levels of Lorewarden.
Just out of curiosity how would you Stat and level him out Oterisk?
Elf is statistically better, they get rapier proficiency for free, and the con penalty isn't too bad, especially with the extra defense from Crane Wing and the high stats.
I would go with 12 19 13 18 14 10 as your adjusted stats. Although a 16,16 for int and wis might actually be better. Since all three stats do help your AC eventually, it is just a matter of whether you like a higher int or wis.
Now where you go from here is based on what excites you about playing a duelist. Picking your feats and weapon defines you as a melee character, and so you should pick a weapon that you like, then build around it. Stick to one of the blue or green choices from my guide. If you like elves, rapier is a cool way to go.
Don't bother with Snake Style (unless you are going straight with unarmed attacks as your favored weapon) until level 7 as you don't get precise strike until then. You got enough prerequisites to fill anyway. There is a discussion about Using MoMS bonus feats to pick up the third feat in a Style chain before the second. If you do go unarmed, this is a great way to get Snake Fang without doing Snake Sidewind. If you go blade, you could conceivably get all three style feats by level 3 if my figuring is right. If your GM doesn't like the idea, you can get it by level 9.
Other than that, fill in where you like, as long as you stay away from the undesirable feats you should be fine. Part of the fun of making a character is making it your own. I prefer getting weapon focus and weapon specialization, other people like dervish dance, still others like even more style feats or combat maneuver feats. Since you are going with Lore Master, I would recommend Improved Trip and possibly Improved Disarm later on.
So the question isn't really what I would do, it is what you will do. And doing this is part of the fun. It's your turn now. Be sure to let me know what your final build looks like.
Ok so I have put together a build through level 8. Take a look.
Courynn Telstener LN Male Elf Duelist 1/Lorewarden 5/ Master of the Sacred Mountain Many Styles 2 (stacked Master of Many Styles and Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Used the ARG option to trade Keen Sense and Weapon Familiarity for Fleet Footed (+2 Iniative and Run Feat)and thinking about trading Elven Magic for Envoy (not great, but does give me a couple of spell like abilities that might find use)
Str 12
Dex 21 (+2 racial, +2 from Level)
Con 13 (-2 racial)
Int 16 (+2 racial)
Wis 16
Cha 10
Traits: Threatening Defender, Warrior of Old
1st) Lorewarden 1: Dodge, Bonus Feat:Weapon Finesse
2nd) MoMS/MoSM 1:Fuse Style, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike (1d6) Wisdom to AC, Bouns Feat: Crane Style
3rd) MoMS/MoSM 2: Mobility, Bonus Feat: Crane Wing, Bonus Feat: Toughness, +1 Natrual AC
4th) LoreWarden 2: Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise, Bonus Feat: Piranna Strike
5th) LoreWarden 3: Manuver Mastery +2, Improved Trip
6th) LoreWarden 4: Bonus Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
7th) Lorewarden 5: Weapon Training (Light Blades) Snake Style
8th) Duelist 1: Canny Defense, Precise Strike +1
At 3rd Level (campaign starting point) I would have:
+6 to hit, 1d6+1(18-20x2) damage (rapier)
20 ac (24 when figting defensively, for -1 to hit)) with the ability to deflect one attack per round. (+1 from Haramaki Armor,
Damage is a bit low, but GM has made it clear that an Agile Weapon will be in my forseeable future.
When I enter Duelist at 8th level:
+12/+7 to hit 1d6+11(18-20x2)damage (+1 agile rapier, -2/+4 Piranna Strike).
Can toss in an Unarmed strike for -2 to all attacks for another 1d6+6. (4 from piranna strike, 1 from str, 1 from precise strike,) but the two weapon fighting is mainly there to give me an attack to use to parry with later.
23 AC (27 when fighting defensively, 29 if I want to tack on Combatexpertise) with out any magic items. (+1 dodge, +1 Natural Armor, +5 Dex, +3 Wis, +3 Int)
Saves will be +8 Fort/ +10 Reflex/ +7 Will (+9 vs Enchantments). Again before any magic items.
We roll two dice and keep the highest for HP's but the average would be around 60 (+1 hp from favored class for the 5 Fighter levels.
All in all looks pretty solid to me. Any comments, or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Still unsure about the two weapon fighting route and improved trip.
Piranna Strike doesn't work with rapiers, it only works for light weapons? You'll need another 1 point for Str 13 and power attack if you want that damage, otherwise settle for less damage.
Also, without the Combat Style Master feat, remember it takes a swift action to activate each style, so until your init you don't have either, and 2nd style only comes online 2nd round.
At 3rd, isn't it still -2 atk for +4 ac, I thought it took riposte to get down to -1?
You're starting at 3rd level, so you could take the 2hp hit for monk1 at 1st for crane style/wing, fighter1 at 2nd for weaponfinesse, monk2 at 3rd for either dodge/riposte or snake style/fang, or hold off and take lvl 3 fighter instead for expertise and dodge (and maybe dirty trick instead of trip?) and save that monk2 for 5th or 7th instead to get snake style/fang then?
Either way, I'd save the 2WF until after you get the parry ability, the -2 to hits hurts too much for the damage gained, especially if you make room for Combat Reflexes and Snake Fang instead.
Just some thoughts...
Thanks for the advice and good catch on piranna strike. I just missed that.
The trait threatening defender reduces the penalty for fighting defensively by 1 that is how I got it down to -1 there.
Thanks fir the tip on two-weapon fighting. I was getting a bit concerned at the negatives stacking up.
Also if you wait until level 3 to get into MoMS, you can take Crane style as your general feat, crane wing as your bonus feat, and take Crane Riposte with you second level of MoMS.
The rest of it looks great, other than what Cult of Vorg said. Have fun with the guy.
Comparing duelist to fighter, I found the negative mod to hit for power attack actually caused the duelist, sans weapon training, to score less DPR against CR-appropriate threats than if they ignored it and just attacked.
That's kinda cool... Do you have a link to where you have worked this out? I think it would be awesome to put in the guide.
Unk, you have me there...it was a long, long time ago. Basically, though, the trade-off of -1 to hit for +2 damage works out reasonably accurately for CR appropriate foes, so what you lose in damage you gain in hits, all other things being equal.