You'll need to avoid turning it on a bit more, but it works great for me, and I almost always play 3/4ths BAB classes.
Depends on a lot of things... I would avoid it for a magus for example since they have plenty of bonus damage available but would consider it for a bard since bards have lots of bonuses to hit to help them withstand the penalty on attack rolls.
I probably wouldn't take it on a summoner, but a cleric which is buffing focused could probably find use for it like the bard can, and a druid that's going to be wildshaping and using natural weapons should probably consider power attack pretty hard. A single weapon rogue can probably get away with taking power attack especially if they are going to use a two handed weapon, whereas an inquisitor can probably better use his feats else where since he again has so many ways to dump the damage on his target.
Alchemist would really depend on what you are looking to do -- I wouldn't recommend it for a bomb thrower primary where a mutagen natural weapon user or vivisectionist might be able to get good use out of it.
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You'll need to avoid turning it on a bit more, but it works great for me, and I almost always play 3/4ths BAB classes.
Is it better to start with it "on" until I determine the target's AC is on the high end, or start with it "off" until I determine the target's AC is on the low end?
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Depends on a lot of things... I would avoid it for a magus for example since they have plenty of bonus damage available but would consider it for a bard since bards have lots of bonuses to hit to help them withstand the penalty on attack rolls.
I probably wouldn't take it on a summoner, but a cleric which is buffing focused could probably find use for it like the bard can, and a druid that's going to be wildshaping and using natural weapons should probably consider power attack pretty hard. A single weapon rogue can probably get away with taking power attack especially if they are going to use a two handed weapon, whereas an inquisitor can probably better use his feats else where since he again has so many ways to dump the damage on his target.
Alchemist would really depend on what you are looking to do -- I wouldn't recommend it for a bomb thrower primary where a mutagen natural weapon user or vivisectionist might be able to get good use out of it.
And the one class you didn't mention was Oracle, which I'm planning on making. ;)
Well what type of oracle? It varies a lot more with them than cleric since they are limited on spells known and their class features play a more prominent role on what they are going to do or be good at.
You'll need to avoid turning it on a bit more, but it works great for me, and I almost always play 3/4ths BAB classes.Is it better to start with it "on" until I determine the target's AC is on the high end, or start with it "off" until I determine the target's AC is on the low end?
I usually buff myself up, so "on" is the default for me.
Oracles don't have quite as many ways to pile on the to hit and damage options as clerics do. Clerics have more archetypes that provide awesome things like bardic performance or bonus feats as well as the ability to completely change up their spells from day to day which helps them maximize the use of power attack more.
I've mainly seen caster oracles that focus on spells and their special abilities to see them through combat. A battle oracle or metal oracle that is looking to mix it up a lot in combat could probably use power attack alright... that said I haven't seen one of those at the table yet.
We have a battle oracle in our group that uses power attack. Works out fine.
Pre-APG and all those boosts, clerics did fine with power attack. Divine Power and Magic Weapon are all you need. Plus, with Magic Vestment, you can focus more gp into your weapon :)
I do agree that clerics might be slightly better off right now when it comes to bashing stuff, though.
Evangelist, mostly. Crusader also has some nice things if you pick a good deity with a weapon you wish to use. They can also get that Crusader's ... whatever feat that lets them use their wis bonus to hit with their deity's favored weapon, after taking channel smite.
I think it can be fine for 3/4 BAB in the long run if not at low levels. For full BAB, at level 20, it's a -6. That's painful. No matter how good your bonuses are, that's gonna mess up your iteratives / dazing assault / whatever. 3/4 means you have a -4 at level 20. Yes, your BAB is also 5 lower, so this seems bad. But... your +5 weapon, is the full BABer getting a higher bonus out of it than you? What about your strength modifier to attack rolls? Your weapon focus?
As you see, everything beyond the BAB will be same-ish. Put it all together, and it would seem, to me, that the 3/4 BAB guy with power attack is coming out pretty good.
There are other factors, as mentioned, though. Magus definitely does not want it, nor would anyone using sneak attack. Basically any character getting a big source of bonus damage, it's not worth the attack penalty. But that's true for 3/4 or full BAB.
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Hm. I was thinking a halfling oracle with 18 DEX, middling CHA, and 12 STR at level 1. Start with Weapon Finesse, then EWP:ECB at 3rd, bump STR to 13 at 4th, and take Power Attack at 5th. The size bonus would help mitigate the attack penalty, and I guess I could always lead off with bless or magic weapon or whatever.
What boosts are you guys talking about that melee clerics have that oracles don't? I've never played a melee cleric, so please fill me in if you could.
Well an evangelist cleric gets bardic performance and if the cleric follows Imo(...whatever/however you spell it) then you can get the good hope spell too.
The divine strategist gets to add another stat modifier to attack rolls when flanking which is nice while the crusader gets bonus feats that can be used to increase melee potential with things like weapon focus.
Finally the cleric has potential access to the anger inquisition and rage subdomain allowing them to rage in addition to everything else (if you go with an evangelist you'll get one or the other not both).
This combined with earlier access to higher spell levels makes a potent combination.
With absolutely nothing other +10 Strength and a +5 greatsword, a full BAB class not power attacking will be up 3 points of damage on average. Three. Points. That's the great disadvantage you speak of? That's the reason it's a horrible idea to power attack at level 20?
If you add one single bonus to hit, say from weapon focus, that gap closes to be +1. The moment you add a measly +2 to hit above and beyond strength and your bonuses from the weapon? Power attack wins out. Just a plain old fighter without weapon focus or weapon spec will be doing 16 more damage when power attacking. And it just keeps on going up with every bonus after just a few of the easy ones.
Barbarian? Laughably easy. Just rage to get some more bonuses to hit and damage.
Ranger? Instant Enemy and intelligent choices. Hello, +8-10.
Cavalier? Charge them on your flying steed with your banner flying for another easy +8 to hit.
Gunslinger? Who cares, you're targeting touch AC anyways.
So uh...no. Power Attacking at 20th level isn't a bad idea. In fact, it's a great idea if you're even half-way optimized. This isn't even taking into consideration Furious Focus, which will *really* help you if you have trouble getting other bonuses.
It helps my cleric.
My strength-based monk gets quite a bit of use out of it, too. Likewise for my psychic warrior.
Hm. I was thinking a halfling oracle with 18 DEX, middling CHA, and 12 STR at level 1. Start with Weapon Finesse, then EWP:ECB at 3rd, bump STR to 13 at 4th, and take Power Attack at 5th.
Sounds like you could save some point-buy points by starting with dex 17 and bumping dex to 18 at 4th.
Power Attack has always seemed to work fine with 3/4 BAB characters in most campaigns. You have to be somewhat more selective about using PA than a full BAB character but not much. If this is for a custom campaign with a GM who likes to use an abundance of high AC enemies, you may find it used less often but I've never seen that happen.
You can't spellstrike though
You can spellstrike with a two-handed weapon all you want; you cannot use spell combat.
Sounds like you could save some point-buy points by starting with dex 17 and bumping dex to 18 at 4th.
He's halfling, so I think that would mostly be a wash for him. Starting Str 12(14-2) and Dex 18(16+2) is going to be almost the same point buy as starting Str 13(15-2) and Dex 17(15+2). He'd save 1 pt at the expense of having -1 to Dex mod for three levels.
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Welp, I mostly wanted to toss the question out there and see whether or not I got responses like "it's a terrible idea" or "it only ever works in X specific build", etc. As it sounds like it's at least baseline-doable (as long as I pay attention to which natural rolls are hitting), I think I'll go for it.
Now do I stick with halfling? Or do I switch to elf for the weapon familiarity? Hm...
Halfling
STR 12 (14-2) bump at 4th
DEX 18 (16+2)
CON 13 (bump at 8th)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14 (12+2)
01:Weapon Finesse
03:EWP (ECB)
05:Power Attack
---------------------------------
Elf
STR 12 bump at 4th
DEX 18 (16+2)
CON 12 (14-2)
INT 10 (8+2)
WIS 10
CHA 14
01:Weapon Finesse
03:FEAT
05:Power Attack
Hm, looks like the halfling gets +1 CON and size bonuses to AC/attacks, versus the elf saving a feat.
So is a feat worth +1 CON, +1 to hit, +1 AC?
Yeah. Halfling wins.
Thanks, all!