actually, dex is used you're the cmb archer trickshot, since they use their bow to begin with, their attacks are dex based. also, at higher levels the cmb is harder, but not impossible.
Do you have a rule to back that Grizzly? There is a feat that switches it from strength to dexterity (Agile Maneuvers) and there has been discussion that Weapon Finesse allows people to use dex for CMB related to their weapons but this is a case where 'yes they SHOULD be able to use dex' the rules do not seem to support it.
Note: I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying that atm I do not remember anything that supports it.
- Gauss
a hard as fact RAW ruling, I don't think so. but, " When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
1. tiny or smaller creatures use their Dex for their cmb.
2. why would weapon finesse work, but not this? (are they not replacing str with dex for an attack roll?
3. ranged attacks use you're dex to figure out attacks
4. trickshot cmb ability came out after the core book, which before, the only way to use cmb was in melee. now you can do it at range, but they never altered stuff for that, yet left the possibility there since they mentioned that weapon finesse could work, and they tiny creatures use dex, so using dex is possible. I see no reason not to.
From what I understand, it is debatable whether or not weapon finesse works. I do not remember if any developer has come down on it in favor of weapon finesse.
My take is that if you use dex for an attack you SHOULD be able to use it for CMB. Other than the feat I cannot find anything to support it. And the line you are quoting doesn't state dexterity. Frankly, it is a vague 'maybe you can apply your dexterity' where elsewhere it clearly states 'apply your strength'.
We both agree that CMB should allow for dex based CMB, without taking the feat Agile Maneuvers, on dex based attacks. I just don't think the rules support it without taking that feat.
- Gauss
The FAQ for weapon finesse said if you're using a weapon to make the maneuver check, and you are using dex to hit instead of str (due to weapon finesse feat), then you'd apply dex instead of str on your CMB.
By logical extension, that would go for Archer's trick shots as well. I realize this board loathes logical extensions, but whatever.
In any case, dex or not, the trick shots are hard to pull off and you don't get the really useful ones till level 11+. Add to that loss of armor training and weapon training (and thus, gloves of duelling), and Archer is a pretty bad archetype. Vanilla fighter is a better archer.
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agreed. I do however like the fact that I can use it as part of an AoO with snap shot and imp. snap shot. I get charged, I trip or disarm a part of the AoO, then I attack on my turn. pretty best. but yes, the losses are harsh. my dm allows the gloves to work, so there is that little bit of hope.
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anyway, I think the OP's question had been answerrd, at least mostly.
Thanks StreamOfTheSky, my memory is failing me today (perhaps senility is setting in..lol). I knew somewhere that WEapon Finesse had been discussed but wasn't sure if it had been FAQ'd
- Gauss
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Vanilla fighter is a better archer.
I disagree. If it was just the trick shots, yeah, I might agree. But the Archer also gets a lot of other great stuff for a bowman that regular fighters don't get. If archery is truly going to be the main focus of a build, then I would pick the Archer archtype over the vanilla fighter any day.
What do Archer archetype vs straight Fighter:
Hawkeye vs Bravery. IMO this is definitely in the favor of Hawkeye since bravery is limited to fear effects. However, fighters are weak against fear.
Trick Shot vs Armor Training: Armor Training is superior when you take into account the relative unlikelihood of Trick Shot being effective.
Expert Archer vs Weapon Training: Weapon Training is superior due to the Gloves of Dueling. If houseruled where the Gloves of Dueling work with Expert Archer than this is equal.
Safe Shot: Basically, free Point Blank Master at level 9. Take Point Blank Master at level 4 and then retrain it at level 8.
Evasive Archer: This is inferior to Armor Training as by this level Armor Training 3 will have kicked in for the straight fighter.
Volley: pure wow. But, there are almost no games that hit level 17 and frankly I am not willing to play a class to level 17 just for this power.
Ranged Defense: DR vs ranged attacks only? ugh. Snatch Arrows? might be useful.
Weapon Master: identical
Summary: If you want extra perception, a free feat and volley then this archetype is golden. If you want a higher AC and damage then go with straight fighter.
- Gauss
Axebeard, while I agree this is true the reality is that most fighters get one weapon and stick with it for life. The only time that is not true is if you need to switch weapons due to being grappled or DR. Archers are no different once they get Point Blank Master.
- Gauss
Axebeard, while I agree this is true the reality is that most fighters get one weapon and stick with it for life. The only time that is not true is if you need to switch weapons due to being grappled or DR. Archers are no different once they get Point Blank Master.
- Gauss
Is this true of most players? I know that my fighters are notorious for carrying different weapons for different purposes. My last PF fighter used all of the following on a pretty regular basis:
spiked chain
falchion
compound bow
spear
longsword
Plus he carried other weapons "just in case" such as daggers, a short sword, a javelin.... probably more, he's been retired for over a year now and I'm too lazy to go pull his character sheet.
In fact it is this weapon versatility that is one of the main reasons I go for fighter when I do.
But even my non-fighter builds typically have at least two "main" weapons, one melee and one ranged. Even my druid has four weapons she carries around (albeit one is just so she can cast "Shillelagh".)
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Axebeard, while I agree this is true the reality is that most fighters get one weapon and stick with it for life. The only time that is not true is if you need to switch weapons due to being grappled or DR. Archers are no different once they get Point Blank Master.
- Gauss
Is this true of most players? I know that my fighters are notorious for carrying different weapons for different purposes. My last PF fighter used all of the following on a pretty regular basis:
spiked chain
falchion
compound bow
spear
longswordPlus he carried other weapons "just in case" such as daggers, a short sword, a javelin.... probably more, he's been retired for over a year now and I'm too lazy to go pull his character sheet.
In fact it is this weapon versatility that is one of the main reasons I go for fighter when I do.
But even my non-fighter builds typically have at least two "main" weapons, one melee and one ranged. Even my druid has four weapons she carries around (albeit one is just so she can cast "Shillelagh".)
Compound Bow?
I think you mean Composite, unless you are playing in one of those odd Campaigns where the centaurs use pulleys on their bows (Cough,Hercules TV series,couch),:D
-Uriel
Compound Bow?
I think you mean Composite, unless you are playing in one of those odd Campaigns where the centaurs use pulleys on their bows (Cough,Hercules TV series,couch),
:D-Uriel
LOL, this is one of my more common game terminology faux pas... Oh well, did it again...
Vanilla fighter is a better archer.I disagree. If it was just the trick shots, yeah, I might agree. But the Archer also gets a lot of other great stuff for a bowman that regular fighters don't get. If archery is truly going to be the main focus of a build, then I would pick the Archer archtype over the vanilla fighter any day.
To be honest, it really depends on a few factors.
If the GM likes doing a lot of melee enemies and less ranged or even spell casting types your better off with regular archer for the higher AC. However, getting a feat for free and the volley ability is to bad for up close.
If you know you will be reaching high levels 15+, then go archer archetype, for their volley ability, plus the improvement of tricksot, hawk eye ability, and to get another CM, by now grapple, since you took disarm, sunder, trip before the high levels.
If lots of open areas, go vanilla fighter.
If lots of dungeons, small areas, go archer.
Biggest factor besides knowing higher levels, which is one of the biggest draws for the archer vs. the vanilla fighter due to their volley ability, is the GM's ruling on the gloves of dueling. If the GM allows them for the archer, then your better off with archer, if not, vanilla fighter all the way.
It is for these reasons and maybe some others that each person has to pick which is better for their actual game. These boards if anything, are a guideline for helping your builds and whatnot, because at the end of the day the GM has the final say.
............
As for the trickshot ability, it really depends on your level and what you fight. If I'm scouting up ahead, and I get a surprise round on the enemies, they are flatfooted. Many people forget that combat starts p with people being flatfooted, typically. And flatfooted removes their Dex mod for their AC and for their CMD.
On top of that, it's only really horrible vs. enemies who are brutes, or who have really high cmd's. My current 10th level archer fighter has a trickshot CMB of: 10 bab+ 7 dex+ 1 pbs + 2 GWF + 4 enh. Bow + 2 WT + 2 gloves + + 2 bracers of archery + 2 ioun stone - 4 trickshot= 28
Figure a CR 14 monster has a CMD of 40 ( is there a table showing the CMD averages by CR ?)....... 40- 28= 12... 12x5=60%... 100%-60%=40% to pull off a disarm or sunder. Considering the penalties I sort of like those odds, even though they suck. If you have someone giving a morale bonus, it gets better. Pheromone arrow provides a +2 if you have scent, that right there gives you an extra 10% chance.
Don't forget that since combat starts at flatfooted, most of the time, they get no dex to their CMD, so your odds are even better.
Get a helm of the stag, patron erastil, you can make up to 3 times a day an enemy be flatfooted with 30', which is the same distance you can do your trickshot ability. With all of this the archer is actually pretty good.
If lots of open areas, go vanilla fighter.
If lots of dungeons, small areas, go archer.
Actually, I would go weapon master over either of these.
Actually, I would go weapon master over either of these.
If lots of open areas, go vanilla fighter.
If lots of dungeons, small areas, go archer.
To be honest weapon master isn't that great for an archer, except if your trying to do a little extra damage. They get a reroll, and a crit bonus, which isn't that great for you since you won't crit often. Also, their AC bonus is only vs the exact weapon you use, so in that case it would be a longbow, which is worse than the archers AC bonus which is vs. all ranged attacks. Other than that, they can increase, once away or something like that, their crit multiplier. For a bow, it's already at x3. If you didn't kill them with that, the x4, isn't going to be much help. And even if then x4 does kill them, not a big deal since technically that is just the use of an extra arrow.
Just to get 1 more atk/Dmg, a retool ability, and a crit booster, is not enough to not go regular fighter for an archer. As for vs. the archer archetype, again depends, but I would say no go weapon master, only if my DM'ing didn't allow the gloves for the archer. If they did, then go archer.
Kthulhu, I personally do not like the archer archetype since most of those trick shots will not work. CMB vs CMD has always been hard and now that you are losing the +2 (for not having the improved feats of those trick shots) AND take a -4 penalty AND are not able to use dexterity for the CMB checks it just wont work very often.
You're probably the first person I've ever heard say that. Just about everyone else I've ever talked to about it seem to be of the opinion that you DO use your Dexterity on the CMB check since it is an attack roll and also a RANGED attack.
EDIT: And as usual I'm late to the party...
Sorry, my percent was off by 5%, it's actually 45%chance to pull off the CMB vs the CR 14 CMD 40 enemy.
As for the dex to CMB, most people as ravingdork said, take it as that it does work due to the dev posting about weapon finesse working and such.
And as for trickshot I agree, the beg is most likely to shake it off, but the minions or squishies are all pure fun.
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To be honest, I'm more likely to use the trick shots against minions or the like anyway (ie, lesser enemies that would have lower CMD). Against the BBEG, my general strategy would be to turn the SOB into a pincushion.
Remember the range limitations on the trick shots, and, to be honest, my Fighter (Archer) will be mainly using them on AoOs given by Improved Snap Shot. And, probably even then, if the BBEG is moving into that close a range, I am gonna want to trip or disarm him, since one arrows damage won't be that useful if he's coming to getcha.
But an archer-type, with an efficient quiver, special materials arrows and arrows basted with various weapon blanches, and Abundant Ammunition and/or Gravity Bow, is gonna be an ugly opponent.
As a meter of fact, I have to retool my Fighter archer's quiver, since he just hit 12th level, and gets another iterative attack (Fighter 10, Ranger 1, Cleric 1, so BAB 11) (3 attacks from iteratives, 1 extra arrow from Manyshot, 1 extra attack from Rapid Shot, and one extra attack from Haste/Boots of Speed comes to 5 attacks using 6 arrows, and he is setup with 5 arrow batches in his main quiver...)
Plain vanilla arrows
Blunt arrows
Cold iron arrows
Plain arrows with silvered weapon blanch
Cold iron arrows with silvered weapon blanch
Plain arrows with adamantine weapon blanch
Plain arrows with ghost salt weapon blanch (Pathfinder Society Field Guide)
Which covers most DRs out there, other than Slashing and -
Wish that Serpentstongue arrows, from Races of the Wild, were open material, since that would complete the majority of DR types.
Which is why Clustered Shots is so low on my "Must Have" feats list...
Kinevon: don't use plain arrows. Just make them cold iron, for double the price. 1gp= 20 normal arrows...2gp for cold iron. Their very cheap. Also, take a look at elves of gelatin. They have plenty of nice arrows in there as well. ( same thing with kobolds quarterly #20).
...elves of gelatin.
Are Geletin Elves cousins of Keebler Elves?
As I said earlier, my memory failed me on the Weapon Finesse/dexterity issue.
- Gauss
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Kinevon: don't use plain arrows. Just make them cold iron, for double the price. 1gp= 20 normal arrows...2gp for cold iron. Their very cheap. Also, take a look at elves of gelatin. They have plenty of nice arrows in there as well. ( same thing with kobolds quarterly #20).
Unfortunately, I play PFS with my archer, so all the cute arrows from Elves of Golarion are not open content.
Actually, you should probably use cold iron blunt arrows (called CIB below), 4 gp for 20, which gets you even more bypass DR ability as a base. And the ability to do non-lethal which bypasses DR, to boot.
CIB plain
CIB WB: Adamantine
CIB WB: Silvered
CIB WB: Ghost Salt
Hmmmm.....
...elves of gelatin.Are Geletin Elves cousins of Keebler Elves?
Damn autocorrect. Sorry, it's Elves of Golarion. And also, the recent kobold quarterly #20 has awesome new arrows. Still waiting for a good grappling hook arrow. Only one currently is adventurer armory, 30' grappling hook arrow.
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...elves of gelatin.Are Geletin Elves cousins of Keebler Elves?
So, that gives me an idea for another crazy Summoner with a gelatin Eidolon....
One important note about trick shots, other than the range limit, is that it's not changing the action type to use them. The whole freakin' point (IMO) of archery is to full attack. :)
So...you've got trip and disarm. The only options you can synergize with your ability to neary always full attack, and trip comes at level 11 and makes foes harder for you to hit (though helps keep them from reaching you, shame again about the range limit...). To be fair, I suppose if you're using your move action to get closer to the foes to use your trick shots in the first place, loss of full attack isn't a factor anyway.... ...wait, wtf did i just type?! You're an archer...moving TOWARDS the enemy...of your own free will...yeah, umm...don't know where I was going there, wowzers that'd be stupid!
Tripping minions seems to me to be a questionable action economy decision. If they are minions, they should be dying pretty easy. An arrow in their gizzards is likely to be more effective at ending the encounter than one that knocks them on their keister.
And anything that improves damage works against both minions and BBEGs...
However, it might well be fun to trip minions at a distance. I dunno, I'm usually too busy killing them.
Sunder can also be used during an attack, and is possible during an AoO. So technically, trip, disarm, and sunder can be used with snapshot and trickshot..
Sunder says attack action, so it's debatable, though I'm sure RAI is you can full attack w/ sunders.
Even then, though, if you don't want to destroy treasure, you're just inflicting the broken condition, which is a very very minor debuff. Seldom worth your effort. And you won't be able to put out the sheer damage a melee greatsword guy can, either. I'm sure it could be situationally useful, of course. Not often enough to make it seem good, though.
To be honest weapon master isn't that great for an archer, except if your trying to do a little extra damage. They get a reroll, and a crit bonus, which isn't that great for you since you won't crit often. Also, their AC bonus is only vs the exact weapon you use, so in that case it would be a longbow, which is worse than the archers AC bonus which is vs. all ranged attacks. Other than that, they can increase, once away or something like that, their crit multiplier. For a bow, it's already at x3. If you didn't kill them with that, the x4, isn't going to be much help. And even if then x4 does kill them, not a big deal since technically that is just the use of an extra arrow.Just to get 1 more atk/Dmg, a retool ability, and a crit booster, is not enough to not go regular fighter for an archer. As for vs. the archer archetype, again depends, but I would say no go weapon master, only if my DM'ing didn't allow the gloves for the archer. If they did, then go archer.
I hear ya. I really do it for the extra to hit and damage. We don't allow the gloves for the archer, so between regular fighter and WM I go with the weapon master for the +1/+1 for the most part. The other stuff is nice, but probably not quite as nice as bravery/armor training. I'm not going to be as good in melee with my version of weapon training, but I'm OK with that.
If you care about treasure than yeah I agree. If not so much, or you want to just sunder the potion or something else in their hand, no problem. To do spells you need a focus or material component. Why not sunder that?
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I wouldn't ever give up armor training for the +1atk/Dmg... Especially, with bravery tossed in there, and the weapon training for other weapons. You even said the other stuff from the weapon master wasn't that useful for you, so why go weapon master at all then? Only good thing beside the extra wt bonus would be the rerolls.
I wouldn't ever give up armor training for the +1atk/Dmg... Especially, with bravery tossed in there, and the weapon training for other weapons. You even said the other stuff from the weapon master wasn't that useful for you, so why go weapon master at all then? Only good thing beside the extra wt bonus would be the rerolls.
The armor training is difficult to give up. Although, as an archer, I hope to stay out of melee anyway, so I decided to live without it. The weapon guard bonus rarely comes up, but is very nice when it does. I never want to be without the bow.
I'm not making an argument that the WM is better, they both have their pros & cons. I chose the WM because the +1/+1 is worth it to me. It really adds up when you're using 4-5 arrows per round.
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Don't forget that a vanilla fighter's weapon training eventually will apply to multiple weapon groups, meaning he gets a significant boost to his melee capabilities as well.
Summary: If you want extra perception, a free feat and volley then this archetype is golden. If you want a higher AC and damage then go with straight fighter.
As well as his CMB when using the specified weapon or weapons.
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Here are a set of twin archer fighters I made. I didn't go to any great lengths on their background.
“Finn Flightarrow”
5th level human Fighter (Weapon Master) Alignment: Chaotic Good
Str: 14
Dex: 19 21 (Belt of Incredible Dex +2)
Con: 10
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Hp: 5d10 + 4 (Level)
Spd: 30ft
AC: 19 (10 + 5 (Dex) + 4 +1 studded leather armor)
Touch AC: 15
Flat-footed AC: 14
Traits: Latent Psion (+2 will saves vs. Mind effects) & Duskwalker Agent (10% off when buying magic items.)
Initiative: + 5
Fortitude: + 5
Reflex: + 7
Will: + 4 (+ 6 vs Mind Effects)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Bow), Weapon Specialization(Bow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Iron Will.
Weapon Master abilities: Weapon Guard (2nd), Weapon Training (3rd), Reliable Strike (5th),
Fighter abilities: Armor Training 1,
Skills: Climb: + 7, Craft (Bows): + 6, Knowledge (Dungeoneering): + 6, Profession ( Soldier): + 6, Ride: + 10, Perception: + 8, Stealth + 9, Survival: + 6, Swim: + 7
Attack: +1 composite longbow (Str +2): + 13 Damage: 1d8 + 6 x 3
Rapid Shot: + 11/+11 1d8 + 6 x3
Point Blank Shot: + 14 Damage: 1d8 + 7 x 3 (Within 30ft)
Point Blank Shot + Rapid: + 13/+ 13 Damage: 1d8 + 7 x 3 (Within 30ft)
Deadly Aim: + 11 Damage: 1d8 + 10 x 3
Deadly Aim + Rapid Shot: + 9/+ 9 Damage: 1d8 + 10 x 3
Deadly Aim + Rapid Shot + Point Blank Shot: + 10/+ 10 1d8 + 11 x 3 (Within 30ft)
Deadly Aim + Point Blank Shot: + 13 Damage 1d8 + 11 x 3
Gear: +1 composite longbow (+2 Str) (2,070gp), Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2 (3,600gp), Eyes of the Eagle (2,250gp), Cloak of Resistance + 1 (900gp), +1 studded leather armor (923gp), Potion of Shield (45gp), Potion of Divine Favor (45gp), Potion of Cure Light Wounds (45gp), Potion of Shield of Faith (45gp), Potion of Expeditious Retreat (45gp), Potion of True Strike (45gp), Potion of Darkvision (270gp), Regular longsword, 60 Arrows.
“Quinn Flightarrow”
5th level human Fighter (Archer) Alignment: Chaotic Good
Str: 14
Dex: 19 21 (Belt of Incredible Dexterity + 2)
Con: 10
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Hp: 5d10 + 5
Spd: 30ft
AC: 19 (10 + 5 (Dex) + 4 (+1 studded leather armor)
Touch AC: 15
Flat-footed: AC 14
Traits: Latent Psion (+2 will saves vs. Mind effects) & Duskwalker Agent (10% off when buying magic items.)
Initiative: + 5
Fortitude: + 5
Reflex: + 7
Will: + 4 (+ 6 vs Mind Effects)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Bow), Weapon Specialization (Bow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Iron Will.
Archer Abilities: Hawkeye, Trick Shot (Disarm), Expert Archer
Skills: Climb: + 6, Craft (Bows): + 6, Knowledge (Dungeoneering): + 6, Profession ( Soldier): + 6, Ride: + 9, Perception: + 9, Stealth + 8, Survival: + 6, Swim: + 6
Attack: +1 composite longbow (Str +2): + 13 Damage: 1d8 + 6 x 3
Rapid Shot: + 11/+11 1d8 + 6 x3
Point Blank Shot: + 14 Damage: 1d8 + 7 x 3 (Within 30ft)
Point Blank Shot + Rapid: + 13/+ 13 Damage: 1d8 + 7 x 3 (Within 30ft)
Deadly Aim: + 11 Damage: 1d8 + 10 x 3
Deadly Aim + Rapid Shot: + 9/+ 9 Damage: 1d8 + 10 x 3
Deadly Aim + Rapid Shot + Point Blank Shot: + 10/+ 10 1d8 + 11 x 3 (Within 30ft)
Deadly Aim + Point Blank Shot: + 13 Damage 1d8 + 11 x 3
Gear: +1 composite longbow (+2 Str) (2,070gp), Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2 (3,600gp), Eyes of the Eagle (2,250gp), Cloak of Resistance + 1 (900gp), +1 studded leather armor (923gp), Potion of Shield (45gp), Potion of Divine Favor (45gp), Potion of Cure Light Wounds (45gp), Potion of Shield of Faith (45gp), Potion of Expeditious Retreat (45gp), Potion of True Strike (45gp), Potion of Darkvision (270gp), Regular longsword, 60 Arrows.
Finn, like is twin brother Quinn, were raised to be superb archers by their father Vinlin Half-Elven. After Vinlin was killed, the brothers took care of each other on the streets of Katapesh where they perfected their skill in archery while in the service of the Duskwalkers. Even though they are identical twins, Finn and Quinn decided to add their own unique style of archery on top of what their father had taught them.
I apologize for any errors I may have.
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i would rather play a mobile fighter over any other fighter archetype. they get a full attack - 1 every round, only issue is lack of weapon training, which can be fixed by mixing 8 levels of sohei for a 3 extra attacks and weapon training.
mmmm... we call that the dakka gun blasta build.
"Wizards really, really need spells to defend against archers, is the thing."
LOL!!!!! Poor wittle wizards!
"If you're an archer, and can shoot anyone on the battlefield..."
Except that the game expecs archers to conform to real life, unlike wizards, so all the wizard has to do is throw up a freaking Obscuring Mist (do it via wand even; CL and save DC don't matter at all) and the archer cannot even see him. Wizard can toss AoE spells and not care about being unable to target the archer directly, of course.
"who are you going to target? Obviously the wizard; he's both the most dangerous and the most fragile. He's also got no armor and no hitpoints."
Ok, now I KNOW this is a joke post! No hp? Wizard's 2nd best stat is Con, it will be 14-16 in a 20 point buy game. No AC? Mithral buckler = what spell failure? Of course, a real wizard doesn't rely on AC to protect him. That's what miss chance % and mirror images are for! Wizard, played properly, is one of the toughest PCs to kill, and not for lack of effort on the monsters' parts.
"Anyway, if a level 5 wizard uses a third level spell just to protect himself from your arrows, then he's used up like a third of his power for the day, just to stop you from firing arrows at him. And then you can walk right through the wall and then keep firing arrows at him anyway. It's a useful battlefield control spell in a lot of situations, but it's hardly overpowered."
You...don't seem to understand the magnitude of the situation. 5th level wizard using one of his 2-3 highest level spells per day to completely shut down level 5 archers? Ok, that's still kind of overpowered, but not too bad. Flash forward to level 15 wizard vs. level 15 archers. His spell is STILL shutting down these archers EXACTLY AS WELL as it did at level 5. Except now it's a drop in the freaking bucket for him to cast!
That is ultimately what makes it so broken... No archer can counter it short of using dispel magic or other spells to get rid of the spell completely. THAT IS BROKEN. How do you feel about a low level wizard shutting down an army of level 20 archers?
Talking about Fickle Winds. The wind wall can at least be moved around usually, which I noted before.
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BTW, for the tricksot ability fun that I had made mention long ago and a few others as well, once you hit 11th level things really get fun. Trip them on your turn or when they provoke you somehow. Their now prone. Then when they try to get up they provoke from you. Disarm their weapon, if they have it, if not sunder something of theirs that's useful, be sure to use adamantine arrows for that exact purpose. When they try to reach and get back their weapon they provoke agai. you can now trip them from that AoO and cycle through again.
They eat up their actions to do anything and at their best their standing with a weapon in their hand nothing sundered, only because you didn't want to tricksot them. If you did, they'd be prone, armor in pieces, shield in pieces, and weapon tossed to the side.
Against a dm that is good at presenting challenges, the mighty archer can face a number of difficulties. If you are no longer in clear streets, large rooms or nice convenient tunnels to shoot down, it can get a lot weaker.
Consider games run more in the dark souls or warband style, where there are plenty of obstacles to your shot, cunning enemies, a good use of shields and defensive feats, and a lot of close up fighting. If there is no visibility beyond 50 (ruins, jungle, rising hills, walls), if something is too thick to shoot through, the enemy are out there and you haven't killed them at 300 away. This is how the archer is countered.
I love archers, and I make crossbows stronger in my games so they are more comparable, but yes, environment is everything in determining whether an archer will dominate or be ninja'd while trying to find a decent shot.
Also throw in the craziness that is UE, add in the 1k gp enh. Bonus to make your now match your Str bonus.
New arrows from UE, hushing arrows and silence arrows.
As well as the blood crystal special materiall, living steel, and viridium special materials for making your arrowheads. Very nice indeed. As well as the frost forged and fire forged steel materials, so you can now put your arrow over the camp fire, let it lose, and set the tar on fire from 300 ft away, without magic.
I'm not sure if fire damage means it can make things cach on fire, but who knows. If it works, archers just got a no magical way to do what they've always been asking for, fire arrows. You just need to do 10 pts of damage to the steel head or leave it over a fire for 1 round.
Personally, I do not think the Adaptive property is that big a deal. It saves you from having to sell your bow in order to get a bow geared towards your strength. How is that crazy? (BTW, my group houseruled a different workaround in order to perform the same function.) A player would have to have a +10 strength in order for the cost between a high strength Comp Longbow and Adaptive to balance out.
The one thing it will do that normally cannot be done: allows you to lose strength and not lose accuracy. I find that to be not a big deal either.
I am not impressed with Hushing Arrows. DC13 or DC16 will saves? For a spellcaster that is usually not hard. Frankly, when I use silence I NEVER cast it on the spellcasting target since that target will save more often than not.
- Gauss
I mean crazy as in crazy good. I've had to use 4 different bows due to str issues and abilities on certain ones. Now I only need 2 at most. It isn't crazy, it's balanced, my definition of crazy was a positive one, not negative. I love archers!
For casteRs your right, it's not worth it, but for the fighter or other low will save characters it works ok. It's expensive, but for me, I see it more as a roleplaying Tim, and less combat. If I need to make sure the town guards are nice and quiet so I can sneak past them, or even walk right by them while they try to yell, I might use these.
Btw, just quickly checked, for a DC 11.. Which I know sucks, but still it has a use sometimes, a better and cheaper way of silence, is instead sleep. Forget about stopping the barbarian from being quiet, just put him to sleep. Also it deals non-lethal, so vs the barbarian whose already in the negatives, the slightest non lethal damage makes him unconscious.
A potion of silence is cheaper and you can dismiss it. Make an Oil of silence and you can put it on an arrow, then no save. Admitedly, it will take an extra action to apply it but it is guaranteed to work.
- Gauss