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Yea, the DC10 knowledge check is pretty much what I would consider fair too.I agree that if a player is trying to RP some other trait that he had, it would be disrespectful of the DM to refer to him simply as "the half-orc". But, I would say that there is no skill roll required to identify an elf, dwarf, halfling, human, gnome, or half-orc. If the PC were playing something unusual, a roll could be made to discover that he is a "toothy" half-orc, or what have you, but, the fact that they are a core race would still be identifiable without a roll. I might go so far as to say that it would be a free DC10 check that they could Take 10 on. That wouldn't get them anything other than the base race. It's not about the DNA, it's about the physical appearance still matching (for the most part) a half-orc.In this case someone with Knowledge (Local) to identify humanoids could obviously roll and tell he had orc DNA if they cared.
My question was just about letting the player have freedom to describe their character that way without mentioning race. Also not having the NPCs magically know "oh, half-orc" unless of course they had the...
Wow ... funny thing ...
In looking in the Core Rulebook, I just found that "Identify a creature’s ethnicity or accent" is a DC10 Knowledge(Geography) check. Odd, that.
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Setting aside this is a fantasy game with magic and sorcery and all that…
The world is a dynamic one, in which every commoner within the setting of Golarion has a core set of assumptions about how the world works and what’s in it. Magic is something the average person doesn’t really understand, and is probably a big suspicious of. But they know it exists. Most fantastical happenings that are outside the norm for the common person within Golarion are the seeds of adventures.
Combining the rules as written with what the common person should or can expect, which is something to maintain continuity of cannon within the game setting, you get a cross-section of what the people and adventurers are within Golarion.
Unless you choose some game mechanic that grants you outsider heritage (such as a Celestial or Infernal sorcerer or Aasimar/Tiefling racial boon) or the Toothy trait for half-orcs or what have you, then giving yourself those traits necessarily creates an expectation of the setting itself. The setting itself and all its various bits, pieces and parts (NPCs, creatures, etc) will or should react to you accordingly.
But what you are saying is, oh, it’s just fluff, I’m still an Elf, but I have these vestigial wings because my ancestors were outsiders. As a GM, how do I make the NPCs react to you? As an outsider, a mutant, or a weird elf? Should I have them shun you because you are drastically different than anything else out that they know about? But wait, you don’t get mechanical benefit for your claim to outsider ancestry, so you shouldn’t get mechanical penalty either right? So then, now we have a problem of verisimilitude within the setting itself. Because it’s just fluff, as a GM I can’t have my NPCs react to your vestigial wings, but you get to run around saying, “look how cool I am, I have vestigial wings.”
So, to answer your question:
If you sit down at my table and say you have vestigial wings, and you don’t have a mechanical reason allowable by legal written source (Sorcerous bloodline, Aasimar boon, etc.) then I will say, no, you do not have vestigial wings at this table. And if that makes you get up from the table, so be it.
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Yea, the DC10 knowledge check is pretty much what I would consider fair too.I agree that if a player is trying to RP some other trait that he had, it would be disrespectful of the DM to refer to him simply as "the half-orc". But, I would say that there is no skill roll required to identify an elf, dwarf, halfling, human, gnome, or half-orc. If the PC were playing something unusual, a roll could be made to discover that he is a "toothy" half-orc, or what have you, but, the fact that they are a core race would still be identifiable without a roll. I might go so far as to say that it would be a free DC10 check that they could Take 10 on. That wouldn't get them anything other than the base race. It's not about the DNA, it's about the physical appearance still matching (for the most part) a half-orc.In this case someone with Knowledge (Local) to identify humanoids could obviously roll and tell he had orc DNA if they cared.
My question was just about letting the player have freedom to describe their character that way without mentioning race. Also not having the NPCs magically know "oh, half-orc" unless of course they had the...
Wow ... funny thing ...
In looking in the Core Rulebook, I just found that "Identify a creature’s ethnicity or accent" is a DC10 Knowledge(Geography) check. Odd, that.
That is interesting. I should read up on all the knowledges and what exactly they cover. I'd go with Knowledge(Local) since that its what identifies humanoid races.
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So when working on background story that works well in PFS you should always stick to what is actually possible.
Now Saying you have Demonic/Infernal Way back in your ancestory is kosher because not only does that Fit Orcs, but it works in Golarion. You can use that to describe why you have some of your odd features, but you would not see any other benfiit from it.
What you are talking about is having some Half Orc Half shoggoth in your distant ancestory is not even possible. I am not aware of any Half Ooze "templates" in Pathfinder, and I think that is where the re-skinning accusation is partly linked to.
Edits: In other words, when making a Background you should not only stick what is possible and fits in the world of Golarion but actually works in the Pathfinder RPG even if you are not seeing any benefits from it.
A Good example would be a Qadiran explaining why she has Red hair from the Jann blood in her ancestory, but she does not get any benefits from half-janni just some weird Red hair.
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Right, but I'm not saying "doesn't look like a half-orc," I'm saying "looks like a slightly different half-orc"
It's something that came up in the RPGA and there WAS a formal ruling made about in faor of the more roleplay-y side. "How a character looks" isn't exactly mechanics, as long as it's still recognizable. It's far more in the realm of flavour, and even if it's odd flavor that someone may react strange to in character (you can argue this is mechanics, but my character could very easily be a 100 year old man in a loincloth wearing the skulls of fallen government officials and still be within RAW), we're talking about a world where wizards routinely shoot fireballs out their fingertips and gods directly answer prayers.
The question at this point almost seems like we can't just argue our way to a solution, and that we'd need some kind of ruling on. Nonetheless, I find it kind of silly to say "everything must look exactly RAW or else it isn't allowed at all in organized play." because at that point we're saying imagination and backstory is less important than anything in any rulebook. It worked fine in RPGA campaigns without any kind of drama or stupidity, so why not allow it in this situation as well?
Not that I'm saying "clearly it IS allowed" but more "What is the reasonable justification for not allowing vestigial alterations based off backstory that have no more effect on in-character actions than that which can be defined by the pre-existing rules.
Like I said, there's nothing stopping me from just maxing out disguise and doing it anyways, only the difference there is that DC 10 check to see I'm a half-orc? Totally wouldn't exist.
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Step 1. Get a tiefling boon (play at a con, or other sanctioned event large enough to get Paizo support).
I would do this in a heartbeat, but like I said. I've got almost no time ever for cons. Even if I live closer to the upcoming Paizocon than the Paizo offices themselves do I still have a hectic schedule. Got a spare boon lying around? :v
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Yeah, I think that had I not read it, I would've picked (Local), too. It's an interesting distinction that (Geography) specifically says:That is interesting. I should read up on all the knowledges and what exactly they cover. I'd go with Knowledge(Local) since that its what identifies humanoid races.Wow ... funny thing ...
In looking in the Core Rulebook, I just found that "Identify a creature’s ethnicity or accent" is a DC10 Knowledge(Geography) check. Odd, that.
Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
Obviously the emphasis is mine, but, it's making the distinction between "people", and "humaoids". But ... I think that's a whole other thread. :D
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As a GM, how do I make the NPCs react to you? As an outsider, a mutant, or a weird elf?
Now lets say you sit at a table with someone playing a RAW elf ranger who collects halfling heads and has made a pretty ball gown out of the scalps of fallen halflings.
See? Vestigial changes can matter in-game without reskinning anything.
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Although it's not exactly what you were going for... there's a way to make something visually like this actually legal.
Step 1. Get a tiefling boon (play at a con, or other sanctioned event large enough to get Paizo support).
Step 2. Purchase a copy of the Blood of Fiends sourcebook, then flip to page 23. Apply the qlippoth heritage to your tiefling.
Step 3. Take a level in abberant sorc for the bendy arm trick.
Step 4. Go the rest into oracle with tongues. Huzzah, you've got a really freaking weird PC!
This! this!
Walter ... I think that I love you.This is precisely what we're talking about. Make it as weird as you want, but, have something to back it up. Don't just be weird for the sake of making a joke character. If you're gonna go ... go BIG!
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As a GM, how do I make the NPCs react to you? As an outsider, a mutant, or a weird elf?Now lets say you sit at a table with someone playing a RAW elf ranger who collects halfling heads and has made a pretty ball gown out of the scalps of fallen halflings.
See? Vestigial changes can matter in-game without reskinning anything.
Stonecunning ... I was right up there with you. Up 'til that last part. How is anything in that scenario a vestigal change? It seems straightforward to me.
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As a GM, how do I make the NPCs react to you? As an outsider, a mutant, or a weird elf?Now lets say you sit at a table with someone playing a RAW elf ranger who collects halfling heads and has made a pretty ball gown out of the scalps of fallen halflings.
Call me a little too pro-halfling, but I would probably remove that character from play for violation of the "no evil characters" rule.
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Yeah, I think that had I not read it, I would've picked (Local), too. It's an interesting distinction that (Geography) specifically says:That is interesting. I should read up on all the knowledges and what exactly they cover. I'd go with Knowledge(Local) since that its what identifies humanoid races.Wow ... funny thing ...
In looking in the Core Rulebook, I just found that "Identify a creature’s ethnicity or accent" is a DC10 Knowledge(Geography) check. Odd, that.Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)Obviously the emphasis is mine, but, it's making the distinction between "people", and "humaoids". But ... I think that's a whole other thread. :D
I think the difference is that Local can identify the "race" as in species while Geography can identify the "race" as in ethnicity.
Geography tells you that the sorcerer unfurling his wings before you is from Tianjing (and gives you a huge clue that he is probably celestial bloodline). Local tells you that he is human and not assimar or a celestial like you might expect of someone from Tianjing.
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Although it's not exactly what you were going for... there's a way to make something visually like this actually legal.
Step 1. Get a tiefling boon (play at a con, or other sanctioned event large enough to get Paizo support).
Step 2. Purchase a copy of the Blood of Fiends sourcebook, then flip to page 23. Apply the qlippoth heritage to your tiefling.
Step 3. Take a level in abberant sorc for the bendy arm trick.
Step 4. Go the rest into oracle with tongues. Huzzah, you've got a really freaking weird PC!This! this!
Walter ... I think that I love you.
This is precisely what we're talking about. Make it as weird as you want, but, have something to back it up. Don't just be weird for the sake of making a joke character. If you're gonna go ... go BIG!
I disagree, I think that basically saying "if you want to play this flavor make sure you are a person who can go to a con" is not a useful comment. Racial boon discussions turn ugly fact for a reason. It is an implicit stratification in the PFS community, which I am discovering as I try to become more involved in said community since right now PFS provides my only opportunity for gaming at all.
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Stonecunning ... I was right up there with you. Up 'til that last part. How is anything in that scenario a vestigal change? It seems straightforward to me.
Because all I'm talking about (from a mechanical standpoint) is a costume. He asked how should NPCs react to a character with weird visible vestigial traits, I pointed out that it's not any different than a character with an outrageous costume from a mechanics standpoint. Hell, halfling-scalp elf there is probably going to attract MORE mechanical problems with diplomacy and the like than Mr. Weird Wings.
Call me a little too pro-halfling, but I would probably remove that character from play for violation of the "no evil characters" rule.
Halflings can be evil too, nobody would complain about a trophy hunter collecting skulls of monsters.
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I disagree, I think that basically saying "if you want to play this flavor make sure you are a person who can go to a con" is not a useful comment. Racial boon discussions turn ugly fact for a reason. It is an implicit stratification in the PFS community.Although it's not exactly what you were going for... there's a way to make something visually like this actually legal.
Step 1. Get a tiefling boon (play at a con, or other sanctioned event large enough to get Paizo support).
Step 2. Purchase a copy of the Blood of Fiends sourcebook, then flip to page 23. Apply the qlippoth heritage to your tiefling.
Step 3. Take a level in abberant sorc for the bendy arm trick.
Step 4. Go the rest into oracle with tongues. Huzzah, you've got a really freaking weird PC!This! this!
Walter ... I think that I love you.
This is precisely what we're talking about. Make it as weird as you want, but, have something to back it up. Don't just be weird for the sake of making a joke character. If you're gonna go ... go BIG!
People can interpret what I posted either way, I suppose. I know that Stonecunning isn't going to be able to get to a con to get a boon, but I just wanted him to know of another option, just in case he hadn't flipped through that sourcebook yet. Lets not derail any of this with racial boon crap, suffice it to say that what I posted is a PFS legal option that no GM will be able to refute or handwave off. It's not reskinning, it's actually what his character is.
@Stonecunning: I know that a cons not in your near future, but the rules on reskinning isn't going to be changing anytime soon (my prediction). Just keep what I said in mind just in case you find yourself at a con, or someone donates you a boon or something.
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All that I was going for in my response to Walter was that I think that things outside a base/core race should be backed up with stats, mechanics/whatever.
It was not to imply that they should have a Con boon.
It was to say that players should investigate their "build" and find fun and interesting ways to develop their RP, and flesh it out, using the resources that are available in PFS. There's all kinds of cool s**t out there that can make amazingly, wonderfully, weird characters if one is so inclined.
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Ok,thats fair. I just interpreted that comment as saying that since the ability to realize the concept with a racial boon exists, it was especially bad to try to do so through other means (like clever character description and backstory) which you might not approve of.
I think that I have just been poisoned by the glut of acrimonious race boon threads since the ARG came out, so I just react negatively to the subject.
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@Stonecunning: I know that a cons not in your near future, but the rules on reskinning isn't going to be changing anytime soon (my prediction).
Right, but I'm not convinced that having minorly visible vestigial features is "reskinning" in the way a lot of people here want to think it is. To that extent, I'm not convinced any rules are being broken and a few people pointing at rules about cats isn't particularly convincing.
I don't see how it's any different than a perfectly allowable strange costume that exists within the context of the background flavor written for a character, and NPCs could react to it exactly like that, which is a situation that comes up all the time and regularly! It's a roleplaying game, not just a game where you run around with a cookie-cutter character that you change the equipment on as the only way to differentiate yourself from others.
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As a GM, how do I make the NPCs react to you? As an outsider, a mutant, or a weird elf?Now lets say you sit at a table with someone playing a RAW elf ranger who collects halfling heads and has made a pretty ball gown out of the scalps of fallen halflings.
See? Vestigial changes can matter in-game without reskinning anything.
If you can’t (or are just egging me on by even trying to create a correlation) see the difference, then I suppose we really don’t have much left to discuss on this matter.
Wearing a dress of scalped Halflings is an evil act, and all NPCs will react in horror and disgust and may even break out the torch and pitchfork brigade to run you out of town. That’s an in-character act that should (and will at my tables) have in-game repercussions.
Saying you have vestigial wings without some legal mechanical source to back you up, is breaking the dynamics of the game world that as GM’s we try to bring forward in vivid colorful fashion. How do the NPCs react to you? If you can’t have any mechanical benefit of the wings, then by right, I can’t impose any mechanical penalties either. If it’s just fluff, then it’s just fluff. But as a GM, it is my duty to have the world around your character interact with your character in a dynamic way. If I can’t have the world react to all of what your character is, then your character doesn’t really fit within the world. There are several sources by which to say you have small vestigial wings and have it be somewhat legit. But to just claim you have it without any mechanical backing, leaves you open to a GM saying no.
I would be as diplomatic as possible. But at a convention there is little enough time for the scenarios let alone discussion on this sort of topic. I’d be nice, but firm about it. If you can’t justify the wings, you don’t have them. If that means you don’t want to play at my table, then that’s your choice.
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Can I re-skin or re-flavor an animal companion or item?
You may choose a specific type of animal companion from any of the base forms listed on pages 53–54 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook or a legal Additional Resource but may not use stats for one base form with the flavor of another type of animal. Thus, a small cat could be a cheetah or leopard, as suggested, as well as a lynx, bobcat, puma, or other similar animal; it could not, however, be "re-skinned" to be a giant hairless swamp rat or a differently-statted wolf. If a GM feels that a re-skinning is inappropriate or could have mechanical implications in the specific adventure being played, he may require that the creature simply be considered its generic base form for the duration of the adventure. A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules, and any item a character uses for which there are no stats is considered an improvised weapon (see page 144 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
I'll just got ahead and post the FAQ on reskinning.
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Wearing a dress of scalped Halflings is an evil act, and all NPCs will react in horror and disgust and may even break out the torch and pitchfork brigade to run you out of town. That’s an in-character act that should (and will at my tables) have in-game repercussions.
Nope, there's specifically an archetype that could be used to justify this and nowhere ever does it say "wearing trophies from evil foes you have slain is an evil act."
Also I get that you're against badwrongfun as defined by you but we're not going to agree and you're still saying things as if you are the definitive authority on all things RAW. Your input is appreciated, but please, either take a step back and read how you're coming across or accept that we already know your opinion and try to contribute beyond "I'm right you're wrong deal with it."
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@Stonecunning: I know that a cons not in your near future, but the rules on reskinning isn't going to be changing anytime soon (my prediction).Right, but I'm not convinced that having minorly visible vestigial features is "reskinning" in the way a lot of people here want to think it is. To that extent, I'm not convinced any rules are being broken and a few people pointing at rules about cats isn't particularly convincing.
I don't see how it's any different than a perfectly allowable strange costume that exists within the context of the background flavor written for a character, and NPCs could react to it exactly like that, which is a situation that comes up all the time and regularly! It's a roleplaying game, not just a game where you run around with a cookie-cutter character that you change the equipment on as the only way to differentiate yourself from others.
What part of this quote doesn't make it clear that what you want to do is considered reskinning and isn't allowed.
I'm not trying to attack, however, your thought process has been all over the place and it would be nice to have it narrowed down to one line of thinking so we can all be responding the same.
If you can find a way to do it, such as Walter suggested, that is supported by the rules then YAYYYYYY but to just way you want to do it by "saying I'm this" you've been told by a developer of the game that that is now allowed.
.... But playing one race and saying you're something else is reskinning, whether it seems reasonable or not. As has been pointed out above, half-orcs are the progeny of orcs and humans, just as half-elves are the progeny of elves and humans. Unless you're using alternate racial traits that grant you a different sire, that's what playing that race means.
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There are several sources by which to say you have small vestigial wings and have it be somewhat legit. But to just claim you have it without any mechanical backing, leaves you open to a GM saying no.
What threshold of mechanical support do you require though. Is having a level in a sorcerer with a bloodline which eventually grants wings enough? Do you have to belong to a "special" race like tiefling? Do you have to be an aasimar or other race which can actually get wings? Or do you actually have to have a fly speed somehow?
I agree with you that just unilaterally declaring you have winglets is probably not enough, but even the sorcerer bloodline should justify it I would think.
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Wearing a dress of scalped Halflings is an evil act, and all NPCs will react in horror and disgust and may even break out the torch and pitchfork brigade to run you out of town. That’s an in-character act that should (and will at my tables) have in-game repercussions.
Nope, there's specifically an archetype that could be used to justify this and nowhere ever does it say "wearing trophies from evil foes you have slain is an evil act."
Also I get that you're against badwrongfun as defined by you but we're not going to agree and you're still saying things as if you are the definitive authority on all things RAW. Your input is appreciated, but please, either take a step back and read how you're coming across or accept that we already know your opinion and try to contribute beyond "I'm right you're wrong deal with it."
I would also agree that a character with the severed heads of halflings would be considered evil by me. And if it showed up with the heads of goblins, or orcs, or any other race, I'd be very tempted to slap the evil label on them as well.
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Right, but I'm not convinced that having minorly visible vestigial features is "reskinning" in the way a lot of people here want to think it is. To that extent, I'm not convinced any rules are being broken and a few people pointing at rules about cats isn't particularly convincing.
@Stonecunning: I know that a cons not in your near future, but the rules on reskinning isn't going to be changing anytime soon (my prediction).
Here's an old, semi-famous thread, regarding the "is it reskinning or not" debate. You'll notice how long, emotional, and just plain awful the entire discussion is. Because of how bad it gets over a pig instead of a dog, you can better understand the seemingly universal rejection of your 1/2 shoggoth tentacle orc.
Personally, I don't particularly care if people reskin. But I don't make that call -- I'm not the campaign GM, just a table GM. And in order to keep games down to a short time frame, with shifting players and judges, a lot of the more debated (and when you think about it, really minor topics) get shelved rather than allowed. It's the only major problem with organized play that I find, is telling people they can't do that.
We have a guy, probably my favorite player, named (for this thread) Adam. Adam constantly makes characters that are both hilarious and a joy to play with. Adam wanted to make an illusionist gnome that was a street magician. In a mock Italian accent he started proclaiming "I am Vinchento, magiciano extraordinairo!" And talking about all the spells he would use as 'tricks.' I just about started crying I was laughing so hard as he started acting out the character concept. He also wanted a bag of holding as his top hat, so he can pull doves out of it during his performance. But sadly, we can't do that. A bag of holding is a bag of holding.
My point is this. Reskinning doesn't kill concepts entirely, it just limits them. You can do what you wanted in another fashion (as I presented) or find a way to do it within the non reskinning rules. It's not the best system, but it's the current one. Will it change in the future? Maybe. But don't hold your breath. And, sadly, if you can't get a way to make your shoggoth dude here, you can take that character to a home game. That's where Adam's wizard is. And you can still enjoy PFS with other characters, as Adam still does.
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If you can find a way to do it, such as Walter suggested, that is supported by the rules then YAYYYYYY but to just way you want to do it by "saying I'm this" you've been told by a developer of the game that that is now allowed.
I'm not arguing against what Mark Moreland said, notice that I accepted after his comments that the half-shoggoth thing wouldn't fly. What we're trying to figure out is if backstory is allowed to justify minor visible traits of heritage that don't disguise the race a person is at all. Do all half-orcs have to look the exact same, or could there be some minor visible detail (justified with traits or some other mechanical alteration) that indicated that maybe somewhere in the past there was something else there.
Or is that badwrongfun even though, as I've pointed out with the scalp costume (or the disguise checks) there are ways to use flavor RAW to do the exact same thing anyways.
That last bit is one of the reasons I don't get why some people are wanting to interpret the FAQ as rigidly as possible. I could literally start each game rolling a disguise check to make myself look like a perfect half-breed between an aberration and an orc, and the only difference between this and describing it in backstory is what the character actually is in FLAVOR terms (since either way, we're still talking about a half-orc) and the fact that unlike backstory fluff you're not just going to be able to DC 10 check away the truth.
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I think that *any* backing of an actual mechanical stat would be enough. As long as a player can point to some additional rule their character legally has access to, then I would love to see it in play.
The problem isn't with a character coming up with something that is unique and interesting. It's that they are coming up with something for which there *are* rules for. In various ways, characters *could* - in theory - end up with vestigal wings. If a player isn't using rules to make that happen, then they are breaking not only the spirit, but also the letter of the rules.
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@Stonecunning: I know that a cons not in your near future, but the rules on reskinning isn't going to be changing anytime soon (my prediction).Right, but I'm not convinced that having minorly visible vestigial features is "reskinning" in the way a lot of people here want to think it is. To that extent, I'm not convinced any rules are being broken and a few people pointing at rules about cats isn't particularly convincing.
I don't see how it's any different than a perfectly allowable strange costume that exists within the context of the background flavor written for a character, and NPCs could react to it exactly like that, which is a situation that comes up all the time and regularly! It's a roleplaying game, not just a game where you run around with a cookie-cutter character that you change the equipment on as the only way to differentiate yourself from others.
Vestigial features should be a result of a mechanical choice, not solely a fluff choice. If you want to elaborate on the description of a mechanical choice (i.e. Toothy: My tusks are discolored ivory that curl from my mouth; or Celestial sorcerer bloodline: I have small vestigial wings that sprout from my back—at 8th level, they will grow to full wings that will allow me to fly) that’s fine. But adding a vestigial trait that has no basis within mechanical choices is asking a GM to adjudicate that vestigial trait with no rules to back up how to adjudicate it.
The choice to have a strange feature is completely different than wearing a weird costume. One is an in-character choice that could and should have in-character consequences, while the other is an out-of-character choice that has no mechanical rules to back it up, and so makes it difficult for a GM to rule on it.
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If you can find a way to do it, such as Walter suggested, that is supported by the rules then YAYYYYYY but to just way you want to do it by "saying I'm this" you've been told by a developer of the game that that is now allowed.I'm not arguing against what Mark Moreland said, notice that I accepted after his comments that the half-shoggoth thing wouldn't fly. What we're trying to figure out is if backstory is allowed to justify minor visible traits of heritage that don't disguise the race a person is at all. Do all half-orcs have to look the exact same, or could there be some minor visible detail (justified with traits or some other mechanical alteration) that indicated that maybe somewhere in the past there was something else there.
Or is that badwrongfun even though, as I've pointed out with the scalp costume (or the disguise checks) there are ways to use flavor RAW to do the exact same thing anyways.
If I were the campaign coordinator this is what I would tell you... If you can find a way within the mechanics of character creation (feats.. traits.. etc.,) to make the backstory work then great, you can do that. However, if you cannot backup the backstory mechanically then, sorry no.
My general rule of thumb when creating characters is this, if I think I might have to ask someone if "idea Z" is a good idea, then it probably skirts an invisible line and despite how kewl it is, I'm not going to do it.
The FAQ are decision made by the campaign staff that they expect us to live by, that is why they are interpreted somewhat rigidly.
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There are several sources by which to say you have small vestigial wings and have it be somewhat legit. But to just claim you have it without any mechanical backing, leaves you open to a GM saying no.What threshold of mechanical support do you require though. Is having a level in a sorcerer with a bloodline which eventually grants wings enough? Do you have to belong to a "special" race like tiefling? Do you have to be an aasimar or other race which can actually get wings? Or do you actually have to have a fly speed somehow?
I agree with you that just unilaterally declaring you have winglets is probably not enough, but even the sorcerer bloodline should justify it I would think.
Finding some source that seems to make sense, and as long as it isn't extremely obtuse, I'd be ok with it.
Arbitrarily choosing to have something that makes no sense within your mechanical choices I would not be.
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But sadly, we can't do that. A bag of holding is a bag of holding.
A bag of holding is a bag of holding, not a top hat of holding. All I'm saying is "can I have as part of my characters backstory that he wakes up each morning and takes 10 on a disguise check to make himself look a bit different?" and then justify it slightly differently.
That's different than asking for a fundamental alteration of how an item works.
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Vestigial features should be a result of a mechanical choice, not solely a fluff choice.
Remember my comment about tone arguments with you being a result of you speaking authoritatively needlessly? Here's a great example of an opinion that isn't entirely backed up by RAW.
Arbitrarily choosing to have something that makes no sense within your mechanical choices I would not be.
The entire character concept was a Dark Tapestry Oracle.
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I seem to remember someone mentioning about restriction on players imaginations, though the exact wording seems to be escaping me. But what I am about to post will fit here anyway.
Not many posters will say this because many GMs will start tip toeing on the boards when someone says don't Touch/Criticize my imagination (or something similar), but there are absolutely restrictions on players imaginations in PFS, 2 in fact.
The Setting PFS is set in and the Mechanics PFS uses are the major restrictions you need to work around when using your imagination or building your character background/story. If you touch or break any of those you will find GMs that will have problems with that.
When coming up with a background story as long as they fit within the rules and setting you will find less problems. If you refuse to abide by those confines then either you are playing in the wrong Org play, or need to be ready and willing to put the character aside or change it when a GM says No.
You may find that your home Org GMs don't care about those restrictions and let you do what ever you want, just be aware if you try to do the same thing outside thosr Home Org GMs you will run into roadblocks and those restrictions.
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Let me be clear. I am not saying that your trying to be creative is badwrongfun. I’m trying to show you the way, that is within the rules as they are currently written, to enjoy your creativity as best you can.
Examples of what you CAN do:
- Take Sacred Tattoo as your half-orc racial trait and define it as otherworldly pictograms. Explain that your tribe of orcs/half-orcs are ruled over by some chthonic aberrations from the far realm or even the first world.
- Take the alternate racial trait that gives you natural armor and define it as grey with a stonelike hardness and has lumps and such that resemble rocky nodules. This would also probably work better with a slightly lower Charisma, unless you are specifically going for intimidating.
- Take Celestial sorcerer bloodline and say you have vestigial wing nubbins that aren’t visible through clothing, yet, but as you gain power and eventually at 8th level those nubbins will have grown to wings you can use.
Examples of what you CANNOT do:
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Vestigial features should be a result of a mechanical choice, not solely a fluff choice.
Remember my comment about tone arguments with you being a result of you speaking authoritatively needlessly? Here's a great example of an opinion that isn't entirely backed up by RAW.
Stonecunning ... I think that you're kind of wanting (for some unknown reason) to accuse Andrew of being unreasonable, and make him look like the bad guy in this thread. Your commentary there on his tone (in my personal opinion, which is entirely subjective) is somewhat inappropriate. I have not read any "tone" in Andrew's posts, other than being strictly by-the-book on rules interpretations. Repeatedly attacking his tone, and unceasingly belittling his opinions as not carrying authority seems to me to smack of trying to bate or incite a flame war. If you're interested in making this a debate with personal attacks, I would gently remind you to take care in your posts. As has been mentioned, tone on the internet is often in the ears of the reader. One could (were they so inclined) read much more malice in your own posts, rather than his. It could be said that you are the one being argumentative.
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So ... I think that this thread is pretty much dead.
A Developer has come in, said it can't be done, and still the thread is raging about finding other ways to bend around the rules to get something that isn't mechanically allowed. Regardless of all of the rest of the topical debate, it has absolutely nothing to do with the original post anymore.
So, aside from multiple people agreeing that it's trending toward a flame war, I can't see anything productive coming from this thread. Just my personal opinion ... So, I'll see you folks in another thread!
Take care, have fun, smile, and have a great game! Maybe I'll see some of you at PaziCon weekend after next! w00t! :D
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A Developer has come in, said it can't be done, and still the thread is raging about finding other ways to bend around the rules to get something that isn't mechanically allowed.
Nothing of the sort happened. A developer came in and said a half orc cannot be half-orc half-shoggoth, which is totally fine and understandable. The discussion then turned to whether or not minor physical traits can be represented in any way, which is an entirely different can of worms and totally doesn't have an authoritative ruling on it.
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Take Celestial sorcerer bloodline and say you have vestigial wing nubbins that aren’t visible through clothing, yet, but as you gain power and eventually at 8th level those nubbins will have grown to wings you can use.[/list]
What if the sorcerer walks around without a shirt though and with the small wings? I'm not sure how saying "you can have mechanically justified visual fluff as long as no one can see it" counts as allowing people to exersize their creativity.
Be evil, which precludes wearing dresses of sentient, typically good and humanoid race scalps.[/list]
This is not necessarily evil. A Qairan could collect the ears/scalps of Taldorans and visa versa without being evil (although they are probably not good either). An Iomedian cleric of the Mendevian Crusade could have a tiefling's horns as a trophy of the demonic forces they have cleansed from the face of Golarion and still be a staunch and good aligned crusader.