Take this feat and Select Half Elf
i linked it.
Take this feat and Select Half Elf
i linked it.
Ouch, a human sorcerer with that feat takes things up a notch.
Seems odd though that your racial heritage is 'half-human'. XD
Cheers for the link. =)
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Take this feat and Select Half Elf
i linked it.
Ouch, a human sorcerer with that feat takes things up a notch.
Seems odd though that your racial heritage is 'half-human'. XD
Cheers for the link. =)
I'm 1/16th elf on my mothers side. ;-)
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As for the metagaming issue, I do agree that a GM should ask a player when he picks the expanded arcana feat (whether through this spell or gaining it as he gains levels) how the character knows about obscure spell X to begin with. However, picking, say, dimensional anchor, which is a core and thus reasonably well-known spell, would hardly be considered metagaming.
Alternative way to look at it, the metagaming issue is an issue that has the potential to arise via the expanded arcana feat, an issue that carries over when the feat is selected by the paragon surge spell. The issue then would be whether players should be allowed to pick obscure spells that their players should have no knowledge of when they gain the expanded arcana feat by any means, or whether they should be forbidden on the basis of metagaming. That, however, becomes a GMing issue. Moreover, it is an intrinsic issue with the expanded arcana feat rather than the paragon surge spell.
Gaining any spell via leveling up is assumed to be study done during down time (prepared) or unlocked potential (spontaneous). I'm of the opinion that when you take expanded arcana as a feat (which AFAIK you can only do when you level up) it's just an extension of that. You either studied extra hard that level or got a surge of magical inheritance. What you gain with it should follow the same guidelines as your normal spell gain. If there's no reason for you to have learned a certain spell (though the circumstances of this are few), then the DM shouldn't allow it.
The metagaming aspect comes from the fact that you are casting a spell to gain a feat to gain a spell that you do not know. If you do not know it, then how do you know to select it in the first place? If you know of it but do not know it and are in need of it, why didn't you practice it or otherwise choose it when you gained spells before?
This allows a spontaneous caster more freedom than they should be allowed.
EDIT: Added a tag for emphasis.
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It's honestly starting to sound, to me anyway, like people are worried the All Powerful Wizard isn't so All Powerful anymore...
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If errata was to be issued for this, I think the simplest fix would be that if you select a feat that itself requires a selection, you must use the same selection every time you pick that feat.
Gain Weapon Focus? Fine, but since Weapon Focus requires you to pick a weapon, once you have done so you must always pick the same weapon with your bonus Weapon Focus. Same logic applies to Expadned Arcana -- once you use it to gain a new spell known, you can only use the bonus Expanded Arcana to gain the same spell known.
As for the metagaming issue, I do agree that a GM should ask a player when he picks the expanded arcana feat (whether through this spell or gaining it as he gains levels) how the character knows about obscure spell X to begin with. However, picking, say, dimensional anchor, which is a core and thus reasonably well-known spell, would hardly be considered metagaming.
Alternative way to look at it, the metagaming issue is an issue that has the potential to arise via the expanded arcana feat, an issue that carries over when the feat is selected by the paragon surge spell. The issue then would be whether players should be allowed to pick obscure spells that their players should have no knowledge of when they gain the expanded arcana feat by any means, or whether they should be forbidden on the basis of metagaming. That, however, becomes a GMing issue. Moreover, it is an intrinsic issue with the expanded arcana feat rather than the paragon surge spell.
Gaining any spell via leveling up is assumed to be study done during down time (prepared) or unlocked potential (spontaneous). I'm of the opinion that when you take expanded arcana as a feat (which AFAIK you can only do when you level up) it's just an extension of that. You either studied extra hard that level or got a surge of magical inheritance. What you gain with it should follow the same guidelines as your normal spell gain. If there's no reason for you to have learned a certain spell (though the circumstances of this are few), then the DM shouldn't allow it.
The metagaming aspect comes from the fact that you are casting a spell to gain a feat to gain a spell that you do not know. If you do not know it, then how do you know to select it in the first place? If you know of it but do not know it and are in need of it, why didn't you practice it or otherwise choose it when you gained spells before?
This allows a spontaneous caster more freedom than they should be allowed.
The idea of the spell seems to be that the spell gives you a flux in knowledge and understanding. Although, if you want to argue that the spell should be in the divination school, then I can see a point there.
Allowing a spontaneous caster more freedom than they should be allowed appears to be a separate point altogether. It does seem, however, that in light of the new elf wizard archetype, wizards are also getting more and more options for spontaneous casting. So perhaps the question is more of whether or not the lines between the two should be blurred.
It's honestly starting to sound, to me anyway, like people are worried the All Powerful Wizard isn't so All Powerful anymore...
No, because the all-powerful wizard is bad enough without all-powerful sorcerers stepping into the mix. At least wizards can do their tricks fewer times per day.
And having to use two spell slots, sorcerers can do this fewer times a day too.
If errata was to be issued for this, I think the simplest fix would be that if you select a feat that itself requires a selection, you must use the same selection every time you pick that feat.
Gain Weapon Focus? Fine, but since Weapon Focus requires you to pick a weapon, once you have done so you must always pick the same weapon with your bonus Weapon Focus. Same logic applies to Expadned Arcana -- once you use it to gain a new spell known, you can only use the bonus Expanded Arcana to gain the same spell known.
From a purely flavour perspective, the idea of the spell is that you are tapping ancestral power rather than tapping your own hidden potential. Is it not conceivable that you tap on the knowledge of different ancestors with each casting? Then again, I can see an argument for this spell being more of a divination spell than a transmutation (polymorph) spell.
If you're arguing that the spell should have been a higher level spell, however, I'm inclined to agree. =) Incidentally, Owen, I'm curious about what you think about this in light of the corresponding increase in spontaneous casting options for the wizard (in particular the spellbinder archetype for elves, which is essentially a hybrid spontaneous/prepared caster). As a games developer yourself, what are your views on the wizard and sorcerer's increasing overlap in abilities.
It's honestly starting to sound, to me anyway, like people are worried the All Powerful Wizard isn't so All Powerful anymore...Schrodinger's Wizard may still be hypothetical, Schrodinger's Sorcerer not so much.
This. A game-breaking wizard relies heavily on divination (and/or metagaming) to prepare the correct spells. This relies on the DM being helpful, even in PFS. A sorcerer with this spell has no such restrictions.
And having to use two spell slots, sorcerers can do this fewer times a day too.
The problem here is that this is in addition to all of their other spells known. You won't need to use this spell for most encounters, but when you do pull it out you can have exactly the right spell, most encounters can be ended by the right spell.
And having to use two spell slots, sorcerers can do this fewer times a day too.The problem here is that this is in addition to all of their other spells known. You won't need to use this spell for most encounters, but when you do pull it out you can have exactly the right spell, most encounters can be ended by the right spell.
This. If the sorcerer uses this for every other spell 3rd level or above, you're right Azten. But that won't be the case. They're going to have a bunch of spells they find generally useful. With this spell though, they can pull "that spell" out of their rear-end when they need it most. Wizards have to either guess or do a lot of detective work before hand to have a particular spell ready, as well as the helpful DM that was already mentioned.
Take this as one of your 3rd level spells known, and who cares what you take after that?
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The metagaming aspect comes from the fact that you are casting a spell to gain a feat to gain a spell that you do not know. If you do not know it, then how do you know to select it in the first place? If you know of it but do not know it and are in need of it, why didn't you practice it or otherwise choose it when you gained spells before?This allows a spontaneous caster more freedom than they should be allowed.
The metagaming aspect if it could be resolved with a roll on Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcanum.
I am not so sure that this feat is at an appropriate level... but that would resolve the metagaming aspect.
That's not how those two skills work. Those feats come into play when you encounter things during the game, not when "you" the player comes up with an idea.
"Hey I just came up with this crazy spell combo, I think I will roll my Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana skills to see if my character would know this information."
Sorry, that's pure meta-gaming.
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The metagaming aspect comes from the fact that you are casting a spell to gain a feat to gain a spell that you do not know. If you do not know it, then how do you know to select it in the first place? If you know of it but do not know it and are in need of it, why didn't you practice it or otherwise choose it when you gained spells before?This allows a spontaneous caster more freedom than they should be allowed.
The metagaming aspect if it could be resolved with a roll on Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcanum.
I am not so sure that this feat is at an appropriate level... but that would resolve the metagaming aspect.
That's not how those two skills work. Those feats come into play when you encounter things during the game, not when "you" the player comes up with an idea.
"Hey I just came up with this crazy spell combo, I think I will roll my Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana skills to see if my character would know this information."
Sorry, that's pure meta-gaming.
You misunderstand me.
If spellcraft will let you recognize a spell being cast at you then it will let you KNOW such a spell exists.
I was not making any comment about how the spell lets you know of another feat which grants you spells known. I was merely commenting that to know an obscure spell a Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcanum spell would let you know of the spell. For example most people may not know of the spell "Lunar Veil". All I was claiming it that an appropriate skill roll would let you know about the spell.
That's still not how Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana work. Those skills are used when you interact with a spell in game. Let's say a spell is coming at you and you want to identify it. If you fail your roll then you don't know what that spell is. You can't assume you are going to have knowledge of certain spells because you are able to possibly use those skills to identify future spells they may come into play.
Like I said, those skills are to be used as you interact with spells and spell effects.
I am still on the fence about the trick of getting a new spell temporarily. My initial thought is it would be good but not game breaking as a 7th level spell but at 3rd it is too powerful.
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You misunderstand me.
If spellcraft will let you recognize a spell being cast at you then it will let you KNOW such a spell exists.
I was not making any comment about how the spell lets you know of another feat which grants you spells known. I was merely commenting that to know an obscure spell a Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcanum spell would let you know of the spell. For example most people may not know of the spell "Lunar Veil". All I was claiming it that an appropriate skill roll would let you know about the spell.
I am still on the fence about the trick of getting a new spell temporarily. My initial thought is it would be good but not game breaking as a 7th level spell but at 3rd it is too powerful.
No actually you misunderstand Shallowsoul. If you check his posting history he considers what you are doing meta-gaming.
He has a very strong opinion on what meta gaming is and no amount of disagreement/arguments will make him reconsider his position. Also if you commit anything that he considers metagaming in his game he will houserule you to death but call it RAW.
You are only partially correct.
I know the trick he is trying to do.
He is trying to say that because he has the option to roll those skills against spells that he interacts with then his character has the possibility to know all spells in existence. If this was the case then the PC would never have to roll anymore.
Whether you know information or not is not decided until after the roll is made.
FOUND IT!
Multipurpose Spells
A spell that gives the caster a choice of multiple options should be weaker overall than a spell that only does one thing. First, a spell that is good at two things is much better than a spell that is good at one thing, so you should reduce the power of the former spell so the two spells remain about equal. Second, because bards, oracles, and sorcerers can only learn a limited number of spells, a spell that can do multiple things is often a better choice for them because it's almost like learning multiple spells.
Examples of poorly designed spells with multiple, dissimilar options are:
- A general “emotions” spell that lets the caster project one of several emotions, each of which has a different effect on targets.
- A fire spell that lets the caster hurl a blast of fire, ignite multiple arrowheads to add fire damage, or make a protective shield of fire.
- A spell that works like bull's strength, but lets the caster choose which ability score it affects.
- A spell that either teleports the caster or can be used to send away an unwilling target.
- A spell that deals energy damage of a type chosen by the caster to an area.
Rather than create a multipurpose spell that gives a “shopping list” of effects the caster can choose from, keep the spell focused on one or perhaps two similar options. Note that there is a difference between a spell with multiple similar options and one with radically different options. Good examples of appropriate multipurpose spells are alarm (audible and mental alarms are still alarms), beast shape I (Small or Medium animals, specific benefits from a short list), fire shield (two options with basically the same mechanical effect, on par for a spell of its level), the summon monster spells (very versatile but of limited duration, with monsters of a lower power level than other spells of the same level).
For what it's worth, I believe when a furor was raised over the human favored class bonus for spontaneous casters was introduced, Paizo's position was that it was not overpowered because it essentially did not allow a sorcerer to cast a spell that a sorcerer of that level could not hypothetically cast. Not saying that I agree entirely - I do still think that it's heaps better than a skill point or single hit point. But I'd be rather surprised if they changed their general view on game balance just because one player found a creative way to make good use of a spell (and proceeded to publicly share it with the community).
However, Foghammer's earlier post made me realise something else: most well-built sorcerers DO have a good enough repertoire for dealing with most situations. The same could be said for most well-played wizards (and the spellbinder wizard takes this to another level again). If that is the case, then it is the poorly-played sorcerers and oracles who get the most benefit out of the spell being used in this way. They'd still be a round slower than a sorcerer who chose his spells better or a better-prepared (pun-fully intended!) wizard, not to mention running out spell slots. But it would mean that in such instances their inexperience or lack of game-system-knowledge would not hinder them as much. I've seen enough new sorcerer-players to think that this may not be an entirely bad thing.
FOUND IT!
...Multipurpose Spells
A spell that gives the caster a choice of multiple options should be weaker overall than a spell that only does one thing. First, a spell that is good at two things is much better than a spell that is good at one thing, so you should reduce the power of the former spell so the two spells remain about equal. Second, because bards, oracles, and sorcerers can only learn a limited number of spells, a spell that can do multiple things is often a better choice for them because it's almost like learning multiple spells.
Examples of poorly designed spells with multiple, dissimilar options are:
- A general “emotions” spell that lets the caster project one of several emotions, each of which has a different effect on targets.
- A fire spell that lets the caster hurl a blast of fire, ignite multiple arrowheads to add fire damage, or make a protective shield of fire.
- A spell that works like bull's strength, but lets the caster choose which ability score it affects.
- A spell that either teleports the caster or can be used to send away an unwilling target.
- A spell that deals energy damage of a type chosen by the caster to an area.
Rather than create a multipurpose spell that gives a “shopping list” of effects the caster can choose from, keep the spell focused on one or perhaps two similar options. Note that there is a difference between a spell with multiple similar options and one with radically different options. Good examples of appropriate multipurpose spells are alarm (audible and mental alarms are still alarms), beast shape I (Small or Medium animals, specific benefits from a short list), fire shield (two options with basically the same mechanical effect, on par for a spell of its level), the summon monster spells (very versatile but of limited duration, with monsters of a lower power level than other spells of the same level).
I'm going to hazard a wild guess that the person who wrote that was NOT the same person who wrote the paragon surge spell. XD
Then again, I don't think we have a spell to act as a benchmark for the versatility of picking a temporary feat.
I have to say I'm not worried about whoever it was' idea re: 'forever retaining the spell known since there's no mechanism for losing a spell known'
For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell.
Re: the issue of wands, must the (feat) 'chosen when you cast this spell' part be chosen when the wand is created?
How does Protection from (Evil|Good|etc) or (Fire|Cold|etc) work in that regard?Overall, I don't see that much problem with the Spell itself, as much as that the 'obvious' Caster Race choice is becoming alot less obvious, between Human, Elf, now Half-Elf, and other races as well.
The only thing I don't like is Humans taking the Racial Heritage thing, but I don't really like Racial Heritage Feat for ANYTHING to be honest. Sure, it's a Feat you must buy, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I could build characters who plausibly represented growing up within another racial culture just fine without such Feats, and don't see how they add anything to the game, rather they just make the 'boundaries' of races less important by letting you cherry pick stuff... Similar to Sorceror Bloodlines - Arcane Bloodline is awesome, but since the Arcana is merely so-so, it's better to choose some other bloodline as a Sorceror and take the Arcane BL Powers via Eldritch Heritage: several BL's include Skill Focus amongst their Bonus BL Feats, letting you qualify easier.
/rant
I have to say I'm not worried about whoever it was' idea re: 'forever retaining the spell known since there's no mechanism for losing a spell known'For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell.Re: the issue of wands, must the (feat) 'chosen when you cast this spell' part be chosen when the wand is created?
How does Protection from (Evil|Good|etc) or (Fire|Cold|etc) work in that regard?Overall, I don't see that much problem with the Spell itself, as much as that the 'obvious' Caster Race choice is becoming alot less obvious, between Human, Elf, now Half-Elf, and other races as well.
The only thing I don't like is Humans taking the Racial Heritage thing, but I don't really like Racial Heritage Feat for ANYTHING to be honest. Sure, it's a Feat you must buy, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I could build characters who plausibly represented growing up within another racial culture just fine without such Feats, and don't see how they add anything to the game, rather they just make the 'boundaries' of races less important by letting you cherry pick stuff... Similar to Sorceror Bloodlines - Arcane Bloodline is awesome, but since the Arcana is merely so-so, it's better to choose some other bloodline as a Sorceror and take the Arcane BL Powers via Eldritch Heritage: several BL's include Skill Focus amongst their Bonus BL Feats, letting you qualify easier.
/rant
The spell says "chosen when you cast this spell", so you make the relevant choice when you cast the spell, whether you cast it from a wand, scroll or by spellcasting ability form a class.
Then again, I don't think we have a spell to act as a benchmark for the versatility of picking a temporary feat.
I think the suggested parameters pretty much place this entire spell in "poor design" land. The sheer number of options this spell offers are staggering.
This spell could allow a sorcerer to temporarily learn any metamagic feat on the fly. No need to ever take one after that unless it's a prerequisite for something else desirable.
This spell's power will expand as feats are released in newer sources, something other spells are generally not supposed to do (see Summon Monster; if someone cares to dig up James Jacobs post where he says the creature lists for those will not expand to include other elementals etc...).
Versatility is awesome, and giving some to half-elves to build on that theme is great. But this spell is too much.
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I would ban this so hard that your character is retroactively removed from the game if you even think about taking this spell.
(this is hyperbole)
Every time I see something like this from Paizo, I'm not surprised. I just shove it in the ever-growing pile of complete and utter crap. The ARG is stinking quite mightily the more I learn of it, and I don't even have the book.
I would ban this so hard that your character is retroactively removed from the game if you even think about taking this spell.
(this is hyperbole)
Every time I see something like this from Paizo, I'm not surprised. I just shove it in the ever-growing pile of complete and utter crap. The ARG is stinking quite mightily the more I learn of it, and I don't even have the book.
Nah. Most of it is good. The first thing that's going to happen any time a hardcover is released is that people are going to tear it apart and point out all the bad.
Nah. Most of it is good. The first thing that's going to happen any time a hardcover is released is that people are going to tear it apart and point out all the bad.
I tend to judge design by its lowest point (and I acknowledge that might be unfair sometimes). Everything sucks. Some things suck more than others.
By stripping out those low points, by that definition, the estimate of quality increases.
I just made a Razmiran Priest/Conman to replace my Carrion Crown wizard, and he is SO going to take advantage of this combo in a few levels.
Nothing like spontaneous feats and spells to really pull off a disguise or con.
If I was GMing, I would only allow the character to gain spells or feats he had personally witnessed, kind of like Copy Ninja Kakashi from Naruto. I would also NEVER allow it to stack with itself for extra feats and spells. One casting at a time.
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There we go. It's part of Ravingdork's latest build. That should be a sure sign it needs fixing! :P
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There we go. It's part of Ravingdork's latest build. That should be a sure sign it needs fixing! :P
I didn't think too hard on it when I first read the spell my self, but even then the mention of a spontaneous feat was a red flag in the back of my mind.
A red flag from me in itself should be a red flag to others since I make a hobby out of finding abuses that need to be fixed--for the betterment of the game of course.
EDIT: That being said, I'm not entirely convinced that this is overpowered. You do have to spend a 3rd-level spell slot and a standard action every time you use it, after all, and a feat too if you're human.
Knowing of a specific spell would definitely call for a Knowledge Check or Spellcraft Check by my book...
(damn those overlapping skill usages!!!)
...Not that that really impacts the spells' utility very much IMHO.
EDIT: That being said, I'm not entirely convinced that this is overpowered. You do have to spend a 3rd-level spell slot and a standard action every time you use it, after all, and a feat too if you're human.
Load up on combat spells for most of your known spells and use this one for every utility spell ever published and every one that will be in the future.
It's almost like playing Mutants and Masterminds with a Variable array. You can do anything if you have a standard action to spare setting it up.
And the appropriate caster level to cast it. At low level's it's not so great (getting you weapon proficiency or knock is not going to break anyone's game).
At high levels, it's fairly appropriate when compared to other spells you might be able to cast.
It's almost a free wish, using a standard action and a 3rd level slot instead of the 25,000 gp material component. Or a 7th level slot if you want to quicken it.
I think the real question is does it make Sorcerer's better than a Wizard?
I could care less how powerful something is, but the line is does it put them at par or above the Wizard, because that's the line of no return. It is powerful, and it definitely distinctly puts Sorcerer's a step closer. It's slow, takes two spells and is still conditional. That means you are really accessing the non-combat essential spells. It does allow a Sorcerer to choose known spells that are more focused on effective combat.
It means that for those spells that you kind of want but don't want to take a slot, but maintain access for that rare time (Dimensional Anchor types) you still CAN access it.
I don't think it puts the Sorcerer ahead of the Wizard, but he just got a hell of a lot closer. The fact that it's Half-Elf only is irrelevant, it's just a matter of traits, spells and feats before Goblins gain access to it.
Cheers.
If we presume that this spell is now required to close the gap between sorcerers and wizards, that says:
1. This spell is bad design.
2. Sorcerers are and have always been bad design.
OR
3. Wizards are bad design.
So, do I have to be a Half-Elf for it to go into my spells known? Because, I'd take it, then access it via wand of Alter Self or Polymorph.
Takes a little extra, but allows any race to have it. The spells you use it for aren't for the in-combat heavy spells anyway, just to munchkin the entire list of spells for any rare occasion?
Good, no good? Thoughts? Feedback...
I think the real question is does it make Sorcerer's better than a Wizard?
If we presume that this spell is now required to close the gap between sorcerers and wizards, that says:
1. This spell is bad design.
2. Sorcerers are and have always been bad design.
OR
3. Wizards are bad design.
These are much more appropriate/useful topics of discussion I think. It's not over powered (not with inborn spell level limitations), but it may still step on others' toes, or be bad design.
Your familiar is not a half-elf, is it?
As I posted earlier: even a Wish cannot grant you a 9th level spell.
A wish doesn't eat up two spell slots either.
It's a third level spell. Wand it. It doesn't rely on caster level, so it can be fairly inexpensive.
UMD to emulate race and you can be any kind of caster you like.
As I posted earlier: even a Wish cannot grant you a 9th level spell.A wish doesn't eat up two spell slots either.
But it does cost 25,000 gold. That you will never get back, the spells, all you have to do is wait a few hours...
IMO it's better than wish. Sure you can't access 9th, but who cares. It's only taking up one spell known at third level, and it's only costing those spells if/when you use it. The point isn't that you cast it a bazillion times a day, because you don't.
About 5% of the spells in the game see regular play, the other 95% don't, and a fraction of those are need sometimes/rarely. This spell pretty much says you can take that 5% and don't worry about the others, because if you really really need it, or you're up the creek without a paddle, you know what, don't worry... I got it.
The bottom line is, if it were included in a Sorcerer Guide, it wouldn't be blue, it wouldn't even be purple, the person wouldn't even say "This takes up the next color I'm not using becaues it's so good", it would be bolded, underlined, gold, crossed out, flashing and jumping out of the screen and hitting you in the face.
Even wish doesn't get that treatment.
As a half-elf, you have skill focus. Pick a knowledge skill.
Then it's only one feat to pick up eldritch heritage (arcane) for a familiar, which is nice.
Then, you can use this spell to gain improved eldritch heritage and grab the 9th level arcane bloodline power, gaining three spells each time you cast it.