Awesome! Finally a way for the sorcerer to get the wizard's stuff, instead of the continual one-sided list of magical bonded items that give wizard's the power to spontaneously channel spells and feats that give them the sorcerer's bloodline powers.
I'll consider giving it up when the wizard has to give back all the sorcerer tricks they have been given.
+1
Us Sorcerer lovers have been losing ground since... well, we've always been losing ground.
I would compare the Sorceror now with access to all Spells vs. the Wizard's broad choice (albeit with prep - of course, this spell is just like a 1 round spell prep). Of course, the Sorceror never needs to buy spells. And can now scribe spells of EVERY spell they can think to manifest via this spell. On the flip side, Wizards already could emulate Sorcerors via Bonded Item and some other stuff (new Elven Wizardry for example). EDIT: And Bloodlines of course... So I don't really see this development as out of line, as much as the whole picture is just looking so crowded and overlapping that it seems silly.
It was already obvious from UM and UC... even APG really... Paizo is just following the same Power Inflation as 3.5.
The Expanded Arcana feat works just as well or better with less feat investment than the EH one, for purposes of this spell.
OK, but this spell lets you do anything else you want as well with that Feat.
They should just errata this spell to say pick a feat you meet the prerequisites for in the following list: 10 feats that makes thematic sense for humans and elves. Still a great and versatile spell but much less open for cheese.
This would be alot better IMHO.
Or maybe work like each Feat option is itself a different spell, so you can learn different Feats, but each one is a different spell?
Why are people saying this let's you cast any and every spell? You are still limited by your class list and spell level, are you not?
The sorc/wiz list is a pretty big list. And hey, it can give you limited wish and wish if you need them and don't want to spend a slot on something you are only going to cast when the situation is dire enough to be worth the gp cost.
not if you are samsaran,
but i'm pretty sure everybody is well aware of that,
the context for comparisons is wizards 'who can have every spell in their book if they want to'.
i think that line has already been crossed,
or at least since qadira companion you could gain a feat via a (slotless?) item. (step-up feat via a kilt)
althoughthat was a fixed feat, not like this which with on-the-fly flexibility and total access to all the feats there are now.
really? all this because 2 races can waste a 3rd level slot and a standard action to learn a freaking spell.
you still have to be high enough level to cast the darn spell and provide the appropriate slot. the 9th level spell requires you to be level 18 or higher, which is a matter of level, not spell selection, and there aren't many 9th level spells that are worth the slot. most of them are overpriced. what i see going on with this, is sorcerers taking mostly combat oriented spells and using this to pull out rarely used utilities like knock, or stuff like metamagic feats you couldn't afford.
the 2 races that can do this are
Half Elves
Humans who take the Racial Heritage (Half-Elf) Feat.
in this case of a human, you are essentially spending a feat to gain a floating feat that can be retrained for a 3rd level spell slot.
Hey, I like the feat...
It's not overpowered, it gives Sorcerer's half of what made a Wizard better. In this, I can put a Sorcerer at tier 1.5
It's all good. :D
Other races can do it too, but DC 25 UMD isn't that easy at mid levels. You really have to work for it.
This was brought up earlier, that UMD can fake casting requirements, but I think the spell once faked and cast, can only target a half-elf.
I don't think UMD bypasses the spells targeting limitations. I would love to be wrong on this though, so I'm hoping you're right.
Other races can do it too, but DC 25 UMD isn't that easy at mid levels. You really have to work for it.This was brought up earlier, that UMD can fake casting requirements, but I think the spell once faked and cast, can only target a half-elf.
I don't think UMD bypasses the spells targeting limitations. I would love to be wrong on this though, so I'm hoping you're right.
Agreed.
I despise the term "cheese", as it has no set meaning to all parties.
I'm sure he's just talking about the Cheese from the core rulebook that you can get half a pound of for just 1 silver. Talk about OP :D
As to the Topic at hand, if you don't like it, house rule it out. As of right now it's legal for PFS play so there is no issue there as it is decided by higher ups. I like the idea of the spell, though I also do play with people who try to maximize every little thing, we just play a game we enjoy to have fun.
*edited due to being tried and getting confused
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wow, is this still being discussed?
For all those that are crying that this is breaks the game so hard: how do you feel about the spellbinder wizard? They sacrifice arcane bond and instead get to cast 9 spells of their choice spontaneously. Oh and they get to change one of the spells each even level. And they STILL get to prepare any spell from their spellbook. At higher levels, they can potentially have more spells known of any level than a sorcerer, and do this one level earlier too. OMG THEY JUST MADE SORCERERS SO REDUNDANT WIZARDS ARE JUST SO MUCH MORE POWERFUL NOW.
*slap* No FiddlersGreen, they're wizards, they get to rule the world and make any class redundant.
Except they don't. Nor does a sorcerer occassionally using this spell to gain access to situational spells make the wizard look like a red-headed step-child. Neither gets more power per se. Both just have more options for having the spell the party needs when they need it. Knowing what spell is needed, and how to apply it, is still up to the player.
And guess what? The good wizards and sorcerers are probably the ones who will gain the least benefit out of this application of the spell. On the other hand, new players who didn't build their sorcerers too well suddenly find that they still have an option when they are the only arcane caster in the group and everyone is looking to him to teleport them out of the crumbling cavern. Sure they spend a round extra taking bludgeoning damage from falling masonry, but at least the new player is not being chewed out by his party for being 'noob'. I've seen it happen enough to think that this use of the spell may actually be a very good thing for new or casual sorcerer players.
It's true. The Pathfinder game and the universe imploded long ago, and it's only by social contract that any semblance of reason is maintained.
:P
Decided that a broader discussion of how the ARG changes roles and power balances was in order. Started a new thread to discuss the versatile sorcerer, the spontaneous wizard, and the return of CODzilla (except now the 'O' stands for Oracle). Perhaps seeing these options in light of each other will provide a broader and better perspective.
|
As I posted earlier: even a Wish cannot grant you a 9th level spell.A wish doesn't eat up two spell slots either.
This spell, cast via limited wish, allows the caster to accomplish something they could not accomplish with a full wish without involving this spell. Using a single spell.
Or you can burn the 3rd level spell (7th if quickened) and not worry about expensive components.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
As I posted earlier: even a Wish cannot grant you a 9th level spell.A wish doesn't eat up two spell slots either.
This spell, cast via limited wish, allows the caster to accomplish something they could not accomplish with a full wish without involving this spell. Using a single spell.
Or you can burn the 3rd level spell (7th if quickened) and not worry about expensive components.
Comparing this spell to wish or limited wish is really not a good comparison, as those spells do a lot more than just duplicate lower level spells. In fact, I would go so far as to say that duplicating lower level spells is about the weakest thing you can actually do with the wish line.
I do highly doubt that using this spell with Expanded Knowledge was an intended consequence.
If you want to get really picky, the spell only "treats you as if" you had the feat, it doesn't say you actually gain the benefits of said feat. You could use it for prerequisites. (I don't think this is an intended interpretation either)
For those of you saying "it's two rounds for one casting" I'll point out that it's really n+1 rounds for n castings, as you keep the feat for 1 min/level and so retain knowledge of the spell for that long.
I'm fairly certain that I could drive a GM nuts with this effect, and not just using it for spells.
My go-to character for whenever I need a GMPC is a half-elf buffer sorcerer (half elves make great GMPCs, the Sociable and Shared Insight feats are great for contributing in a way that makes the PCs better rather than overshadowing them).
Anyways, this'll be useful for pulling out the occasional spell that they need I bet, but still doesn't strike me as overpowered enough to overshadow them.
Tom S 820: How did you do that?
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Incidentally, Owen, I'm curious about what you think about this in light of the corresponding increase in spontaneous casting options for the wizard (in particular the spellbinder archetype for elves, which is essentially a hybrid spontaneous/prepared caster). As a games developer yourself, what are your views on the wizard and sorcerer's increasing overlap in abilities.
I don't normally get into game design questions about things other than my own rules or the core rules, but since you asked:
I see such overlap as inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing. Flexibility is good from the point of view of player fun. Too much flexibility is bad from the point of view of game balance.
Now, as it happens I did write the Spellbinder (though like all Paizo material it went through in-house development and editing). So I may be a bad person to ask about its impact. I consider it to be a really useful archetype. But it also replaces arcane bond, which can give you a familiar, or a bonded item. The bonded item already lets you cast any spell you know, as a free casting, but only once per day. If you are in a game with lots of downtime, that can be drawing from a HUGE list of spells. And Familiars can be (in the hands of those who master them) extremely useful.
I playtested the spellbinder, and found it balanced, though like all playtesting this is imperfect. The archetype gives the wizard a flexibility similar to the cleric and druid, in that they have one spell at each level they can swap for a prepared spell. They get a better list of such spells, since they can choose them, but they're also giving up something to gain that flexibility. But most importantly compared to paragon surge, it still limits you to things you pick in advance. You can't use it to always have exactly what you need.
I didn't write paragon surge, and I'd like to believe I'd have done it differently if I had. The problem is that it's nearly impossible to compare the possible power level of ever possible feat in every possible situation, and new feats are appearing all the time. Because it can give you Expanded Arcana, you can use it to pick any spell your class & level can cast. That makes it much more powerful than even a much larger selection of things you must pick in advance, because if what you need is Bigby's Transform Gelatinous Cube to Edible Gelatin (grognard joke) you can have it. The only real cost is a 3rd level spell slot.
(Taking it as a spell known is not a real cost, because you'd have had to take whatever spell you use it for as a spell known. Having to cast a spell in advance is a bit of a cost, but not much of one. Using an extra slot is a true cost). And of course the higher level you are, the more powerful this option becomes.
I think you can give sorcerers some ability to expand and alter their spells known without creating imbalance, much as I did with the "sorcerous sideboard" endowment in Sorcerer's Options: Beyond Bloodlines )(a Super Genius Games, third party product, not an official Paizo Pathfinder book). Andf I think there has been a lack of "nice things" for sorcerers, who mostly get bloodlines (which don't do you much good after 1st level as a sorcerer -- and is why I wrote that SGG book).
But nearly anything that lets you pick any conceivable spell of your class on the fly is going to lead to a power creep. I'd actually be okay with it if paragon surge has a casting time of 10 minutes, which would be more on par with a prepared spellcaster leaving a spell slot open and filling it later as needed (similar to a cleric or druid, who have access to all the spells of their class). I'd also be okay if paragon surge restricted you to choices you could make a 1st level (limiting it to 1st level spells with Expanded Arcana). As it is, I think it's too much, not in type, but in effectiveness.
As I posted earlier: even a Wish cannot grant you a 9th level spell.A wish doesn't eat up two spell slots either.
This spell, cast via limited wish, allows the caster to accomplish something they could not accomplish with a full wish without involving this spell. Using a single spell.
Or you can burn the 3rd level spell (7th if quickened) and not worry about expensive components.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Sorcerer doesn't get to say "screw you" to EVERY material cost to a spell.
Both Sorcerers and Wizards can negate a material cost with Eschew Materials and a Spell Component Pouch respectively, but Eschew Materials only works up to a ONE GOLD limit. You can't just spontaneously cast Wish without paying the 25,000g cost.
Expanded Arcana only gives you the spell. It doesn't negate how the spell works.
|
|
Expanded Arcana only gives you the spell. It doesn't negate how the spell works.
The claim being made earlier is that wish can let you cast lower-levels spells, but had a large gp cost. Using paragon surge to gain expanded Arcana allows you to gain access to any spell your class could cast, including 9th level spells (if you are a high enough level spellcaster) which even wish can't do, but unlike wish, paragon surge has no expensive material component cost.
It's a flawed analogy (since wish can do SO much more than give you access to spells of your class you don't know), but that was where the "ignore material costs" claim was coming from, not a belief that using expanded Arcana to access wish would change wish's material cost.
The best thing I've found for ignoring expensive material component costs is the False Focus feat from Inner Sea Magic. It lets a spellcaster ignore up to 100gp worth of material components. Which, as far as I know, only really helps with nondetection since everything else is too expensive, or covered by eschew materials.
Incidentally, Owen, I'm curious about what you think about this in light of the corresponding increase in spontaneous casting options for the wizard (in particular the spellbinder archetype for elves, which is essentially a hybrid spontaneous/prepared caster). As a games developer yourself, what are your views on the wizard and sorcerer's increasing overlap in abilities.I don't normally get into game design questions about things other than my own rules or the core rules, but since you asked:
I see such overlap as inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing. Flexibility is good from the point of view of player fun. Too much flexibility is bad from the point of view of game balance.
Now, as it happens I did write the Spellbinder (though like all Paizo material it went through in-house development and editing). So I may be a bad person to ask about its impact. I consider it to be a really useful archetype. But it also replaces arcane bond, which can give you a familiar, or a bonded item. The bonded item already lets you cast any spell you know, as a free casting, but only once per day. If you are in a game with lots of downtime, that can be drawing from a HUGE list of spells. And Familiars can be (in the hands of those who master them) extremely useful.
I playtested the spellbinder, and found it balanced, though like all playtesting this is imperfect. The archetype gives the wizard a flexibility similar to the cleric and druid, in that they have one spell at each level they can swap for a prepared spell. They get a better list of such spells, since they can choose them, but they're also giving up something to gain that flexibility. But most importantly compared to paragon surge, it still limits you to things you pick in advance. You can't use it to always have exactly what you need.
I didn't write paragon surge, and I'd like to believe I'd have done it differently if I had. The problem is that it's nearly impossible to...
Thanks for the response, Owen, and it was nice to have your input!
I agree that spellbinder gets a much more versatile spell list than either the cleric or druid, since he gets to customise it, whereas the druid and cleric have not only a fixed list, but that list is a list of spells that do largely the same thing (harm, heal or summon). I would suggest that this actually makes spellbond significantly better, and a very strong option compared to arcane bond, but not so much that it would break the game. And I do agree that versatility is good for player fun. =)
For paragon surge, I like your suggestion of the 10 minute casting time, and will probably either suggest it as a player or implement it as a GM (I'm currently both) if I find that the paragon surge: expanded arcana option becomes overly exploited by either myself or one of my players.
What do you think of this potential houserule for the spell:
---------------------------------------------------
Each time you cast paragon surge and select a feat with a variable option (such as exotic weapon proficiency or expanded arcana), you attune yourself to a specific element of your heritage and must select the same option for the feat each subsequent time you cast paragon surge and select that feat.
You may choose to attune yourself to a different option by meditating for 10 minutes when you next cast this spell. This extends the casting time to 10 minutes. You become unattuned each time you regain spell slots through resting.
---------------------------------------------------
This would be in line with the flavour of the spell, and preserves the more general applications of the spell. I thought about setting the attunement at the start of the day, but realised that there may be too many 'variable' feats to make this feasible.
Ok, rather than waste half an hour of my time reading 3 pages of people crying "OP!" about this, I just scanned each page w/ a word search for "domain" and only deuxhero's post above pinged, so apologies if this was mentioned already...
This power already exists...basically. War Domain says:
Weapon Master (Su): At 8th level, as a swift action, you gain the use of one combat feat for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive and you can change the feat chosen each time you use this ability. You must meet the prerequisites to use this feat.
So, in other news.... I assume Use Magic Device to pretend to be a half-elf would work for a wand or scroll of this spell? Why choose between human's extra spells known and half-elf's having this spell when you can enjoy the best of both worlds? ;)
EDIT: All this spell does is further reinforce the cold hard fact that spellcasters are better at feats and combat than the warrior / non-caster classes. For those who don't recognize the truth the first 35 times you've been beaten over the head with it.
It's been mentioned that UMD doesn't work because the spell says something like: Target: You (half-elf),
i.e. Emulating a Race is for purposes of activating/casting an item, not for what qualifies as a target of the effect.
War Domain is restricted to Combat Feats, similar to some ideas people have proposed that the spell be restricted to some list of appropriate Feats, but barring Errata, being open to every Feat possible is somewhat of a different type of thing.
EDIT: All this spell does is further reinforce the cold hard fact that spellcasters are better at feats and combat than the warrior / non-caster classes. For those who don't recognize the truth the first 35 times you've been beaten over the head with it.
re: the combat aspect, the spell definitely seems useful for dragon disciple/eldritch knight/magus characters.
although note that it's a level 4 spell for magus' (but just 3 for alchemists).also interesting/wierd that it isn't an inquisitor spell, or ranger, or summoner.
|
Ok, rather than waste half an hour of my time reading 3 pages of people crying "OP!" about this, I just scanned each page w/ a word search for "domain" and only deuxhero's post above pinged, so apologies if this was mentioned already...
This power already exists...basically. War Domain says:
Weapon Master (Su): At 8th level, as a swift action, you gain the use of one combat feat for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive and you can change the feat chosen each time you use this ability. You must meet the prerequisites to use this feat.So, in other news.... I assume Use Magic Device to pretend to be a half-elf would work for a wand or scroll of this spell? Why choose between human's extra spells known and half-elf's having this spell when you can enjoy the best of both worlds? ;)
EDIT: All this spell does is further reinforce the cold hard fact that spellcasters are better at feats and combat than the warrior / non-caster classes. For those who don't recognize the truth the first 35 times you've been beaten over the head with it.
combat feat <<<<<<<< general feat. not to disagree that this is powerful but not game breaking.
you can still use this spell as a human. Take the Racial Heritage feat and select half elf as your racial heritage. now you get the human favored class bonus, and this half elf spell.
Half-elf magus + Paragon Surge + Extra Arcana + Spell Blending/Harmonic Blending (SGG)/Jinx Blending (SGG) = the most versatile spellcaster EVER
SGG?
Super Genius Games
I don't find this game breaking.