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Now, in all seriousness, and with all due respect to anyone who is 'strange' (again the goths, furries, anime fans, etc), please explain to me how anyone at all, whether they fall into one of these types of groups or not, can 'identify with' any race other than human at all in Pathfinder?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom#Sexual_aspects
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherkinThis is ... kind of the crux of the argument, Seth.
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I think the argument isn't that cons turn away disabled people, but that for the disabled who don't happen to live near a con, the disability may make it much harder to get there at all.
And cheap day tripper prices don't help those who don't live within a short drive.It's not the Con, it's the logistics outside the con.
When I was a starving student, I made cons by car pooling, volunteering and bringing jars of peanut butter. It is all about how much effort you want to make to attend. Those who organize conventions make an effort to make it easier for people who don't have a lot of money.
Eliminating convention only rewards because some people can't attend a convention is wrong too. It throws out the baby with the bathwater.
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This is ... kind of the crux of the argument, Seth.
I'm going to bow out of this part of the discussion, as I dont seem to be able to convey the point Im trying to make.
To me 'identify with' = 'having shared experiences or having been through the same kinds of situations', which is apparently different from what most of you are thinking.
Also, Patrick, personally, I would Spoiler those links. I am not offended by them, but other people might be.
I personally don't find the trait attractive at all, it is much more difficult to get a feat and extra skill points then it is the get extra stat points. espeically in PFS where skills are very important.I know this might sound like a stupid suggestion... But if the alternate racial trait that allows humans to get a +2 to a second stat in exchange for the skilled & feat. This might discourage the optimisers (not said derogatively), from choosing a race just for the second +2 stat.
Which might have been the cause of extra ARG type races in other living campaigns. This would also be to RP'ers advantages as sometimes people can choose races just because they see that they are most suitable for a class.
Neither do I, really (although a +2 to Int could alleviate any skill problem, if it would be your secondary stat). It's just some section of the community that take a race primarily for the statistical benefit.
I know one player who played a cat-folk just for the stats, or at our club ran an Epic game where all the PC's were non-HEDGHogs.
This would also please people like the OP & role-players who expect the PC's to be RP'd with consideration to race.
Again this is not a good solution, but it may reduce the numbers of 'minority' Golarion races in PFS if it was opened up.
Could just do a poll of most the players. Add it to the end of some modules, and have the VCs eventually tabulate it.
Nothing like more work 8)
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To me 'identify with' = 'having shared experiences or having been through the same kinds of situations', which is apparently different from what most of you are thinking.
Also, Patrick, personally, I would Spoiler those links. I am not offended by them, but other people might be.
1. Well, there are large subcultures in this day and age that disagree with you. The OP is a member of two of them.
2. Absolutely not. I mean absolutely not. I linked to Wikipedia articles, not porn. The only way to be offended by the links themselves is to be offended by the word "sexual," and I will not cater to such absurdity. To see that word, and click the link, and then be offended by the content--which, I'll note, is written entirely in clinical language--is asinine. If you can't handle the very existence of sexuality, don't click on links that are clearly going to be about it.
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1. That's nice. I really dont mind if people disagree with me. They can think what they want.
2. I know what you linked to. My suggestion is based off the fact that there are young kids who visit these boards. If they wandered into this, not knowing what the articles related to, the parents might not be too happy with the content being shared on this website. Again, just a suggestion. You are free to leave it unspoiled if you want.
Edit: Ninja'd by Todd.
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I'm firmly on the side of "ARG races should be rare". That said opening them up to players outside the boon options at cons might be nice. I for one have two boons I earned at a con (one by luck, one for judging). However neither are really what I would have chosen if I had a choice.
So OK, we want ARG races outside the boon structure. Hrm. Now what. There have been a lot of ideas posited here, but most of them (even the new race for high levels) will simply result in a delay before the ARG races are common in the Society.
I think the best idea here so far is the "OK folks want it, so everyone gets one - just one - character at a time that comes from the ARG". That opens it up to everyone and still gives the boon holders a bonus - more racial options than just the one.
It will of course still mean a 'land rush' of alternate races and result in power creep (again) in PFS. The alternative though is to keep it just for boon holders. Personally I could live with that, but I'm trying to find some common ground to throw a bone to the other side. :)
Wait.... I thought we were all dirty old men? ;)
No, dirty middle-aged men ;P
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I know what you linked to. My suggestion is based off the fact that there are young kids who visit these boards. If they wandered into this, not knowing what the articles related to, the parents might not be too happy with the content being shared on this website.
If young kids--or anyone, really--wander in to this and don't know what a furry is, they're going to Google it, and find themselves right where I linked. I considered removing the anchor from the first article, but then people might not realize the article does contain information about sexuality; it seems better to leave it there as a warning. Besides which, children who click that link full of prurient curiosity will be very disappointed by its dry tone and essentially un-sexual nature.
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Oy, speaking of kids. You guys are making me feel old.So old, apparently, that you can't stop drooling and need wrappings to keep your head together. ;)He's also got a case of 'Taco Neck'.
I remember those commercials! Didn't they stop them because of some real disorder that has that as a symptom and people got upset?
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I remember those commercials! Didn't they stop them because of some real disorder that has that as a symptom and people got upset?Oy, speaking of kids. You guys are making me feel old.So old, apparently, that you can't stop drooling and need wrappings to keep your head together. ;)He's also got a case of 'Taco Neck'.
No idea why they stopped, but I still think of those every time I eat a hardshelled taco, lol.
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I know this might sound like a stupid suggestion... But if the alternate racial trait that allows humans to get a +2 to a second stat in exchange for the skilled & feat. This might discourage the optimisers (not said derogatively), from choosing a race just for the second +2 stat.
Which might have been the cause of extra ARG type races in other living campaigns. This would also be to RP'ers advantages as sometimes people can choose races just because they see that they are most suitable for a class.
If you have enough races you can usually find one with 2 +s where they matter and the - where it doesn't. on top of that you can get skill bonises and sppecial abilities like low light vision.
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I'm coming over from LFR, and frankly the sameness of pathfinder characters is annoying to me. Something like 90% of non-human character concepts are stereotypical.
I mean seriously, the races are:
Human-EVERYWHERE, which fits the world
Elf- ranged or magic flavors only please
Dwarf-with stats that don't match most classes
Emo-Elf...which are supposed to be rare, but are common in PFS
Emo-Orc...which are supposed to be rare, but make up like 50% of all PFS Two handed melee types
Halfling- which I've yet to see in play in PFS, despite them being popular in other living campaigns I've been in
Gnome-Liguist Pyromancerss and bards only please
Honestly, I never understood why little races sucked so much in 3.0 and pathfinder. I also never understood why two rare "races" are common and open, but some simply exotic races are restricted. For example, Lizardfolk aren't evil, just barbaric, and they're common in the world. However, you likely won't ever see one in PFS, but half-orcs are barbaric and rare, but are everywhere in PFS.
As a result, arguments about the believability of some races in PFS are sort of silly when emo-crossbreeds are so frequent.
Also, my understanding is that GMs at cons don't have access, or haven't had access, to race boons in the past. This seems annoying to say the least. I mean what is the player at a con doing to deserve a boon that the GMs aren't? If anything GMs at cons should have more chance than players to get these boons.
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I think your figures are skewed. In my local group of about 20 we have seveal Gnomes (druids, summoners, sorcerers) We have 1 half orc and she is a Barbarian, We have a couple Halfling Clerics/Oracles. Not everything is the same everywhere. Yes we have tons of humans, and a bunch of elf rogues, but from what you have observed somewhere does not make it the case elsewhere.
GM's at cons get rewards too. My first con I went to I got a boon to play 1 of 3 exotic races. In fact every GM who ran at that particular con got one.
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Halfling- which I've yet to see in play in PFS, despite them being popular in other living campaigns I've been in
Furious, I think your experience is very limited to your area, and not an accurate generalization of the PFS campaign as a whole (honestly, noone's is). As Chris stated above, it is different in his/her region, and it is different in mine.
On this specific point, for example, in Georgia we have a plethora of halfling players. Bards, dervish fighters, rogues and others. We have a Cleric of Asmodeus (down with Saerenrae!), a half-orc Cleric of Pharasma. One of our players plays dwarves almost exclusively. We have ONE half-orc barbarian I can think of. ONE elf wizard I can think of. Gnomes we have druids and alchemists.
I do not agree that small races suck in PF. For example, my bard (human) actually took Alter Self because I want to transform to a small race as much as possible. (+ to ranged attacks due to size/dex)
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I think your figures are skewed. In my local group of about 20 we have seveal Gnomes (druids, summoners, sorcerers) We have 1 half orc and she is a Barbarian, We have a couple Halfling Clerics/Oracles. Not everything is the same everywhere. Yes we have tons of humans, and a bunch of elf rogues, but from what you have observed somewhere does not make it the case elsewhere.
Seeing your post, I realized I was wrong. We do have a player with halfling cleric, whose is a "look how bad I am" comic character. In the mod I played with him, moving at 15 ft in a mod with a lot of difficult terrain, the halfling cleric literally barely could make it into combat before the combat was over. So much for being nimble and quick...
Honestly, the point is that encouraging some diversity even in the core races, and moving away from racial stereotypes that are practically hardwired into the race mechanics, would be nice.
Where are the you can play a halfling that doesn't suck boon?
Pick one:
Halfling defender: no str penalty and you can wield one type of medium martial weapon without penalty
Quickfoot: 30 foot movement
Tribal Shaman: you can gain a bonus in int or wis instead of dex or cha.
That would be fun.
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The issue is revealed: anyone with a STR penalty or 20ft movement inherently sucks.
Halflings have a str penalty, a size penalty to weapons, AND 20ft movement.
You should be able to play an armored halfling. In LFR, I played a halfling barbarian, that WAS effective in combat. I also had halfling paladin, monk, and a battlemind, all of which rocked and were really fun to play. In Living Dark Sun we had a halfling party that ate their way across the campaign.
In pathfinder, a halfling barb would be swinging a 1d8 or 1d10 weapon with both hands, taking a further penalty to damage, and moving at 20 feat a round, with barbarian speed factored in.
I tried making a simple dervish-style dex fighter, and I could barely carry a chain shirt (small sized), a loin cloth, and a small scimitar.
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The issue is revealed: anyone with a STR penalty or 20ft movement inherently sucks.Halflings have a str penalty, a size penalty to weapons, AND 20ft movement.
You should be able to play an armored halfling. In LFR, I played a halfling barbarian, that WAS effective in combat. I also had halfling paladin, monk, and a battlemind, all of which rocked and were really fun to play. In Living Dark Sun we had a halfling party that ate their way across the campaign.
In pathfinder, a halfling barb would be swinging a 1d8 or 1d10 weapon with both hands, taking a further penalty to damage, and moving at 20 feat a round, with barbarian speed factored in.
I tried making a simple dervish-style dex fighter, and I could barely carry a chain shirt (small sized), a loin cloth, and a small scimitar.
The single deadliest encounter I have ever run in PFS featured a halfling barbarian as an opponent. They work just fine as is.
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In LFR...In Pathfinder...
First of all...the overpoweredness, crazy-osity brokenness of LFR, coupled with rules that change with the wind because they are designed poorly allows for easily-made characters that are taken out of their normal context. This was designed from the start with mechanics such as essentially only having three stats instead of six, since STR/CON, DEX/INT and WIS/CHA all pair up.
And just because there were different races doesn't mean there wasn't stereotypes for race/class selections anyway. A lot of class skills...cards...powers...whatever they are are built off of a pair of stats...so you have to build your toon to that pair of stats.
On to Pathfinder...there is no restrictions to any build whatsoever. Some are harder to put together (Halfling Barbarians, Dwarven Bards, Elven Tanks, etc.) but honestly, that's where the challenge comes in too. You want a stealthy Dwarven Paladin-Rogue hybrid? Go for it! Sure, you'll probably be gimped in some circumstances, but hey...that's part of the game.
If you want to be an armored halfling barbarian...go for it. It doesn't really make sense...considering barbs don't typically wear armor...but you do what you want. You want to be a hobbling gnomish cleric ranger druid tank? You can build it with some creativity. Or you can go back to LFR and try it....oh wait, no, no you won't be able to because you are stuck in a given class (if I recall correctly...this snarky comment of mine could be wrong :) ).
Anyway, back to the point that goes with the release of the ARG. There's a reason why the standard races are who they are; they are for the most part the classics...they were OGL/3.5 material, they are in numerous stories and other games, they are recognizable and familiar. Pathfinder was built to be a "3.75" game at first, and thankfully has since evolved...and with evolution comes opening of new ways, as we are seeing with boons and new choices within standard races, etc.
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A level 1 halfling. barbarian in medium armor would have a 14 or 16 strength and swing up to a 1d10 weapon for 1d10+3 or 4 damage (8.5 or 9.5 damage) and a + 3 or 4 to hit. Oh, and 20 ft movement.
A human would be 2d6+6 or 7 (13 or 14 damage) with a +4 or +5 to hit, all with 30ft movement.
Even a halfling dervish needs a repectable str or they will almost immediately be at medium encumbrance and 15 ft a round.
I.e., build against type, and you are screwed. Build something stereotypical, like a rogue, and the movement penalty means you are less likely to get into flanking, as you are moving like a fighter in plate.
Either way, you are less effective in combat than a human or elf. Giving a boon that lessens/removes this penalty would be fun.
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Don't forget halflings' size bonus to attacks and AC.
Spend 10 build points on STR, and you end up with a net 14. When you rage, this goes up to 18. STR mod + BAB + size puts you at +6 to hit. A two-handed weapon and you're looking at 1d10+6 damage.
Meanwhile, if we assume the barbarian wants to max his AC in a breastplate, the halfling buys a 14 DEX for 5 points (race bumping it to 16, to perfectly meet the armor's max DEX), offsetting the STR purchase. Basically, they trade places. On top of that, the size means the 16 DEX halfling in a breastplate will have 20 AC instead of the human's 19, for half the stat build points.
A halfling barbarian with stats of 14/16/14/7/11/15 and some ranks in Intimidate is going to destroy face. Seems less like halflings suck and more like you're trying to build them according to a different system and then wondering why it's not working in THIS system.
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Don't forget halflings' size bonus to attacks and AC.
Spend 10 build points on STR, and you end up with a net 14. When you rage, this goes up to 18. STR mod + BAB + size puts you at +6 to hit. A two-handed weapon and you're looking at 1d10+6 damage.
Meanwhile, if we assume the barbarian wants to max his AC in a breastplate, the halfling buys a 14 DEX for 5 points (race bumping it to 16, to perfectly meet the armor's max DEX), offsetting the STR purchase. Basically, they trade places. On top of that, the size means the 16 DEX halfling in a breastplate will have 20 AC instead of the human's 19, for half the stat build points.
A halfling barbarian with stats of 14/16/14/7/11/15 and some ranks in Intimidate is going to destroy face. Seems less like halflings suck and more like you're trying to build them according to a different system and then wondering why it's not working in THIS system.
Try a half orc with same stat distribution and the racial bump in str, dex OR cha. Better at intimidate, +5 or so more damage per hit (and a bite just for kicks), same or better to hit, 10ft faster, and 1 or 2 lower AC. Why don't you see which one works better for you?
More to the point, I cannot find one class in which a halfling is one of top two races for it.
Rogue: medium races except dwarf are all better, except at stealth, where the half-elf free skill focus makes them nearly as good. Also, no special vision makes hiding in the dark hard for halflings. 20 ft movement also makes for a bad scout.
Dervish: low movement, low encumbrance and 1d4 damage scimitar means all the medium races except dwarf are better.
Sorcerer: Halflings make good ray specialists. But still don't make the top 2 races in any of the 3 guides.
Halflings seem to be a roleplaying option, and that is it. Mechanically they bring virtually nothing to the table that is better than what a medium race can do.
This is why a boon could be used, so that halflings could compete mechanically with the medium sized races. People complain about a lack of creative boons and making pathfinder into a menagerie, but whatever.
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What Jiggy said.
But I'll also throw in that a halfling barbarian should probably stick to light armor, so he can preserve his 30 ft speed, until he has enough money for a mithral breastplate. Then he'll be in medium armor with 30 ft speed. I did this same thing with my human barbarian to preserve his 40 ft speed at low levels.
Also, there apparently IS a racial trait in the Advanced Race Guide that lets halflings get a 30 ft base speed by giving up some other racial bonuses, and it's already PFS legal.
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Since you ninja'd my last post, and this may take me a minute to write, I'll make a separate post.
The one thing that I think halflings are probably at least as good at as any other race is actually buff specialist cleric. The charisma bonus is good for positive channeling, the speed and small weapons don't really matter, and you can combine your good Halfling Luck saving throws with the Lucky Halfling feat. But most importantly, look at that halfling cleric favored class bonus. Apply it to the first level Luck or Good domain buffs, and the halfling can use those more times per day than any other race. With a starting 16 wisdom, boosted along the way, he should be able to hit 12 times per day of using those great buffs by level 10.
Now that I think about it, the cha and dex bonuses make halflings pretty good archer bards, too. Maybe not quite as good as a human, but probably better than just about any other race.
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If Pazio wants to give out boons at conventions to reward palyers that can attend conventions that is fine with me but they should not restrict
big things like races to convention only things. That takes away the value of the ARG that I paid $40 for which is more important to pazio
rewarding convention goers or people that will spend on average $50 a month on their products and not get full value for thier money because Mike and Mark want to pump convention attendance. Do not lock races or classees to convention only things. There are many things that Mike and mark can give out for boons other than races. Give out a on time stat bump a unique magic item.
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If Pazio wants to give out boons at conventions to reward palyers that can attend conventions that is fine with me but they should not restrict
big things like races to convention only things. That takes away the value of the ARG that I paid $40 for which is more important to pazio
rewarding convention goers or people that will spend on average $50 a month on their products and not get full value for thier money because Mike and Mark want to pump convention attendance. Do not lock races or classees to convention only things. There are many things that Mike and mark can give out for boons other than races. Give out a on time stat bump a unique magic item.
I think I just had an aneurysm...
If Pazio wants to give out boons at conventions to reward palyers that can attend conventions that is fine with me but they should not restrict
big things like races to convention only things. That takes away the value of the ARG that I paid $40 for which is more important to pazio
rewarding convention goers or people that will spend on average $50 a month on their products and not get full value for thier money because Mike and Mark want to pump convention attendance. Do not lock races or classees to convention only things. There are many things that Mike and mark can give out for boons other than races. Give out a on time stat bump a unique magic item.
But it doesn't take any value away from your book. The book still works for play, still has value, still supplies ideas, still is good for any game you play and perhaps con play if/when things are approved.
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As a whole, I'm happy to observe/read this thread. It is a minefield of pit traps in terms of conversation that I don't want to get into. However
Or like a man saying he identifies as being female despite his male body?
I'm pretty certain this was intended to be a jab at male players who always play "hot adventurer chick trope #47" (and with a bit too much gusto for description of certain attributes).
But it also reads very easily as a dig at transgender/gender queer folks, especially as a response to a specific sub-thread within the discussion about marginalized identities. Please check yourself; the majority of the OP's arguments around this issue seem to carry the message that some groups don't feel welcomed by the PFS community. Statements like this don't help anyone on either side of the discussion.
That's all I have to say on the topic. If you want to discuss this particular issue with me, I'd prefer private messages vs. derailing this thread anymore than it derails all on its own.
EDIT: Also, if this was intended as not a dig but a rhetorical question to prove a point by identifying a very real situation in terms of identification, please say so! Tone and inflection don't always translate well in text and this can go many different ways.
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which is more important to pazio
rewarding convention goers or people that will spend on average $50 a month on their products
You know, I think you might have just hit on something right here:
Why not create a one-time Chronicle which only has one boon, and that is, allowing people to make a new race. Just like the Chronicles that exist for the Pathfinder novels, it can only be utilized when a GM signs to demonstrate that you own a copy of the ARG.
Boom. A literal reward for people who want to use this book, since they'd have to own it to get the Chronicle, and not unfair, because you'd have to own the book to use its contents anyway, so if you can't afford the book, the Chronicle wouldn't do you any good. And not at all unprecedented, since, as noted, we have the fiction Chronicles.
Edit: You know what, I'm starting a new thread with this proposal, because by post 199, it's just going to get lost in the shuffle.
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EDIT: Also, if this was intended as not a dig but a rhetorical question to prove a point by identifying a very real situation in terms of identification, please say so! Tone and inflection don't always translate well in text and this can go many different ways.
That was how I read it, based on the context.
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EDIT: Also, if this was intended as not a dig but a rhetorical question to prove a point by identifying a very real situation in terms of identification, please say so! Tone and inflection don't always translate well in text and this can go many different ways.That was how I read it, based on the context.
Me too.