
Phil Meyer |
So for my first Pathfinder game (will be play-by-post) I wanted to go with an Elven Rogue. However, I couldn't seem to get a viable build at level 1 with two weapon fighting. My attack bonus without weapon finesse would be a whopping -1/-1. If I don't take TWF at level 1, I wouldn't be able to get it until level 3. In a PBP game, I could be level 1 for a very long time.
I don't want to go archery, because I'm also starting a PBP game with an Archer Ranger.
Someone in my game suggested going Half-Elf, and taking the alternative racial feature to get an Elven Curved Blade, which is finesse-able. So at level 1 I don't have two attacks, but I get a nice 1d10 weapon. Is this an okay trade-off? Fluff wise I'm loving this idea.
If I do go this route, any advice? As a half-elf I get to pick a second favored class. Maybe fighter?
Thanks in advance guys. In a way I love learning a new system, but as a noob I'm afraid of making bad build choices.

Mort the Cleverly Named |

I'd recommend against TWF for a low level Rogue. As you have mentioned, the attack bonus is pretty pitiful (though I don't know how you are getting -1/-1, as you would have +0 BaB and -2 for TWF). Additionally, it eats up feats, makes you even more dependent than others on full-attacks, requires buying multiple weapons, and makes it more annoying to juggle items in hands. While the style can become stronger at higher levels, where your party can buff your attack bonus like crazy, it isn't as mechanically effective as one would hope of such an iconic style.
I wouldn't recommend archery for a Rogue either, as it is quite difficult to get the correct circumstances for ranged Sneak Attacks after the first round of combat. It can certainly be done, but not without a lot of system mastery, and not at level 1.
The curve blade would be a good choice, especially if you love the flavor. If you have at least 13 Strength, I'd recommend picking up Power Attack at level 3. This will let you deal passable damage, even without a Sneak Attack. This is actually pretty important for Rogues, for when Flanking isn't an option, you are alone, or the enemy is one of those rare ones that is just plain immune to Sneak Attack.
A level of Fighter might not be a bad choice either. An extra feat, +2 Fortitude, and the proficiencies all help out the combat-Rogue type. I'd probably stick to just a level or two, however, as to not overly delay the acquisition of advanced Rogue Talents.

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1) As Mort has pointed out, TWF on a rogue is bad. It looks great, and sounds great, but mechanically its is very bad.
2) You can actually pick up either TWF or weapon finesse at level 2 with your rogue talent if you want to go that way.
3) You can't actually get elven curve blade if you go half-elf rogue at first level (unless your DM is very nice and lets you count as an elf for purposes of weapons), its an exotic weapon and you don't have the base attack bonus to pick it up.
Personally, I would suggest you take the ninja class out of ultimate combat. It is very rogue like, being an alternate class for the rogue, only it is more geared towards combat, and it receives the Katana proficiency at first level (which is about as good of a weapon as you can get at first level) and being strength based.

Phil Meyer |
@Mort: Thanks! That's exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for.
@Shadowcat: I believe the alternative racial feature for half elf (ancestral weapon that replaces adaptability) explicitly states that you can select an exotic weapon. Doesn't that bypass the BAB pre-req?
If I can't get an Elven Curve Blade, then that'd probably put a crimp in my plans for going Weapon Finesse. So yeah, I guess I should consider going strength in that case.
As for the Ninja and strength suggestions, I'll have to consider those. Probably when I get home from work and have my resources to check.

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@Shadowcat: I believe the alternative racial feature for half elf (ancestral weapon that replaces adaptability) explicitly states that you can select an exotic weapon. Doesn't that bypass the BAB pre-req?
If I can't get an Elven Curve Blade, then that'd probably put a crimp in my plans for going Weapon Finesse. So yeah, I guess I should consider going strength in that case.
As for the Ninja and strength suggestions, I'll have to consider those. Probably when I get home from work and have my resources to check.
I always thought so as well until I saw it pointed out on the forums earlier this week (or maybe last week, I don't recall). But unfortunately, no. Bonus feats (which this is) only explicitly bypass pre-requesites if they assign you the feat or they say bypassing pre-requesites.

DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

So for my first Pathfinder game (will be play-by-post) I wanted to go with an Elven Rogue. However, I couldn't seem to get a viable build at level 1 with two weapon fighting. My attack bonus without weapon finesse would be a whopping -1/-1. If I don't take TWF at level 1, I wouldn't be able to get it until level 3. In a PBP game, I could be level 1 for a very long time.
First, if you don't take TWF at level 1, you would be able to get it at level _2_. Take Combat Trick as your Rogue Talent to take a free combat feat.
Understanding that you know you might be first level for a long time -- being patient with a rogue TWF build can have a good payoff. It is one of those things that you will have to hope you level a bit to see it pay off (I wish there were some rogue talents or an archetype that boosted rogue TWF). It's okay if you don't START TWF -- focus on other parts that are valuable in a combat rogue build, such as Weapon Finesse or Combat Expertise (if you want maneuvers) or even things like Step Up or Stand Still (to keep people from moving away from you so you can eventually be able to full attack them). Work on being a good swordsperson. Then when you level -- at any level, because again, save that Combat Trick talent to get an extra combat feat (swashbuckler archetype can take it twice) high enough that your TWF attack bonus will be decent, you can take the feat and start cuisinarting away. It doesn't pay off right away but can be a fun build over time.
There's also an option of dipping ranger or fighter at some point for a BAB boost and bonus feats. Which is a decent option for a combat rogue--won't slow your sneak attack progression too much and can be helpful for that kind of concept.
Understanding that you're doing PBP I can understand your concerns about not getting a payoff right away and so you may not want to go that route. But I thought it was worth posting my POV.
Someone in my game suggested going Half-Elf, and taking the alternative racial feature to get an Elven Curved Blade, which is finesse-able. So at level 1 I don't have two attacks, but I get a nice 1d10 weapon. Is this an okay trade-off? Fluff wise I'm loving this idea.
That'd be fun!
If I do go this route, any advice? As a half-elf I get to pick a second favored class. Maybe fighter?
With a single weapon build for a combat oriented rogue, I'd suggest doing a feint build -- take Combat Expertise at 1st level (you need Int 13 for this) and take Improved Feint as your Rogue Talent (Combat Trick) at 2nd level, which lets you feint as a move action. This lets you sneak attack even when you are not flanking. Obviously for this to do well you will also need to boost your Bluff to max (if you pick a different weapon than Elven Curve Blade, you could keep adaptability and get Skill Focus in Bluff, but I also like the elven curve blade flavor).
And if you multiclass, yeah, fighter is probably best for BAB boost and bonus feat. Or ranger, so you can have nearly every skill as a class skill and BAB boost and favored enemy (bonus to hit and damage even if circumstantial). Or go crazy and dip into Barbarian and have a frenzied whirl around with your curve blade.
Thanks in advance guys. In a way I love learning a new system, but as a noob I'm afraid of making bad build choices.
Good luck, and if you pay attention to anything I say, pay attention to this:
1. Trust your instincts
2. Build what looks like fun to play
3. Be willing to make mistakes. Nothing teaches a system better than learning from your errors--and sometimes taking something you think is a good idea when others tell you not to actually IS a good idea, because the others overlooked something or didn't understand what kind of campaign you were in. No, no one wants to be stuck in a bad build--and hopefully if that happens, the GM will be obliging and allow you to tweak--but part of the fun is playing around and seeing what works. If you just play what everyone else tells you to because you're afraid of building a character "wrong" you might miss out and feel frustrated.
My two cents. Enjoy your game.

Drejk |

Ancestral Arms: Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
Description says that the half-elf receive EWP or MWP. Period. Nothing says that he can't take this racial trait without BAB of +1 or more.

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Quote:Ancestral Arms: Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.Description says that the half-elf receive EWP or MWP. Period. Nothing says that he can't take this racial trait without BAB of +1 or more.
That is true, however, martial weapon proficiency does not require a BAB of +1. A half-elf can take the trait and gain proficiency with a martial weapon even if he does only have a BAB of +0.
The trait does not say you can ignore requirements for selecting the feat. Compare that to other bonus feats that do allow you to ignore requirements when selecting feats and they explicitly state that they allow you to ignore requirements.

Drejk |

Drejk wrote:Quote:Ancestral Arms: Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.Description says that the half-elf receive EWP or MWP. Period. Nothing says that he can't take this racial trait without BAB of +1 or more.That is true, however, martial weapon proficiency does not require a BAB of +1. A half-elf can take the trait and gain proficiency with a martial weapon even if he does only have a BAB of +0.
The trait does not say you can ignore requirements for selecting the feat. Compare that to other bonus feats that do allow you to ignore requirements when selecting feats and they explicitly state that they allow you to ignore requirements.
Strange, I just noticed that Fighter bonus feat feature lost "must meet the prerequisites" note from 3.5. All other bonus feats class features have either "must meet the prerequisites" or "does not have to meet prerequisites" note.
I'd still say that when feature calls for a specific feat, like in this case, it overrides need for prerequisites (compare Cauldron witch feat - it says that character gets Brew Potion feat as a bonus feat, so he gets Brew Potion, even if taken before 3rd caster level).

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Drejk wrote:Quote:Ancestral Arms: Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.Description says that the half-elf receive EWP or MWP. Period. Nothing says that he can't take this racial trait without BAB of +1 or more.That is true, however, martial weapon proficiency does not require a BAB of +1. A half-elf can take the trait and gain proficiency with a martial weapon even if he does only have a BAB of +0.
The trait does not say you can ignore requirements for selecting the feat. Compare that to other bonus feats that do allow you to ignore requirements when selecting feats and they explicitly state that they allow you to ignore requirements.
No no...if you take the trait you get the proficiency. Otherwise it cuts out all but the martial classes and you can't change it after character creation. Its more of a "boom you already have the feat before you choose your class" type thing. Because you are supposed to choose your race before your class. Don't use classes as examples...this isn't the same its a racial trait.

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Strange, I just noticed that Fighter bonus feat feature lost "must meet the prerequisites" note from 3.5. All other bonus feats class features have either "must meet the prerequisites" or "does not have to meet prerequisites" note.
I'd still say that when feature calls for a specific feat, like in this case, it overrides need for prerequisites (compare Cauldron witch feat - it says that character gets Brew Potion feat as a bonus feat, so he gets Brew Potion, even if taken before 3rd caster level).
And if this called out a specific feat, you would be correct. Unfortunately, it does not, it gives you options you can take, one of those options is good if you have a +0 base attack bonus, another is good if you have a +1 base attack bonus.
No no...if you take the trait you get the proficiency. Otherwise it cuts out all but the martial classes and you can't change it after character creation. Its more of a "boom you already have the feat before you choose your class" type thing. Because you are supposed to choose your race before your class. Don't use classes as examples...this isn't the same its a racial trait.
And again, no, it doesn't "cut out" all but the martial classes, non-martials simply have to select a martial weapon. Literally the only class "cut out" is magus.
However, you do have a point in that you choose race before class, because when you choose your race you don't have a BAB yet. . . Interesting.