Goblin Squad Member
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Through the years I have played a managery of mmorpgs and so far there are very few that differ when it comes to fighting NPC monsters or "mobs" as some people call them. These fights are often times dull and repetitive. What I want to know is would it be possible to program these monsters to:
1) all do something different (i.e. Tactics and strategy for beating players). Include some movement. Things get a little more interesting when the goblin youre fighting all of a sudden zips behind you ans buries a dagger in your back as opposed to standing in the same place and hitting each other every couple of seconds. When NPC start thinking like players is when things get interesting.
2) reduce the predictability of encounters to provide more of a challenge to players. I cant tell you how many times ive run the same dungeon over and over and over and the same orc does the exact same tjing evertime. It just feels like a merry-go-round without the merry.
The worst and best feeling you can get as a player is the feeling that you are going to die and coming within a hairs bredth of being defeated only to find yourself a cut above the creature at your feet.
Is this something that would be possible in the PFO mmo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it possible for the mobs to be intelligent? Not really.
But you can replace "mobs" with "other players" and then the answer is a resounding "Yes!"
As for ways to make mob fights better... I have a high hope that the tried-and-true method of learning every detail of the encounter by rote and then simply executing well will be replaced by situations where you must adapt to new tactics on the fly. That'll spice it up, anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it possible for the mobs to be intelligent? Not really.
But you can replace "mobs" with "other players" and then the answer is a resounding "Yes!"
As for ways to make mob fights better... I have a high hope that the tried-and-true method of learning every detail of the encounter by rote and then simply executing well will be replaced by situations where you must adapt to new tactics on the fly. That'll spice it up, anyway.
This^. Players are much more engaging than AI mobs.
I think they can do some interesting things with the AI:
1. Aggro states
2. Nearest Target
3. Calc. Target producing most damage
4. Go for a specific type of class
5. Special Skill activation on a trigger
etc...
This is all very nice and tidy and for a lot of themepark games they want to balance this to player levels so players enjoy some challenge without an instant and boring wipe but not too much so they feel the game is cheating with perfect accuracy etc and machine-like ruthlessness.
Hopefully challenges will be untidy:
1. Number of mobs present (unpredictable)
2. Reactions of mobs variable or context specific to your alignment if you have a char in your group of an earmarked alignment eg?
3. Some mobs might be particularly effective against some classes and others less so (pick your fights).
4. Maybe a mob will run away in a dungeon to activate a trap if you are not paying attention or alert some more guards?
Guess the devs have to ensure that player classes all have utility in some way or other for as variable conditions and unpredictable mob encounters (or other player encounters) as possible.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Some level of intelligence in mob behavior is always preferable, but we're always going to see it within the limitations of the engine, Gerrik. Even basic tactics would be an improvement over most MMOs, but coding intelligent action is hard as hell.
Take the idea of mobs deciding to beat feet because they believe they are outgunned before the fight begins. ("Sir Aildos, him whot kill't the giant Gorthag? Boys, we don' want no piece of this!" That's actual intelligent behavior.) For such behavior, each mob would have to be able to "look" at what they can see on the player's models, determine how much of a threat the mob perceives that player to be, reputation, etc. Tricky, likely to lead to a combinatorial explosion of factors for the mob's AI to weigh, but it'd be awesome.
Why oh why do Avena's and Nihimon's discussions make me think of something akin to the "Director" in L4D? A simple ability to weight challenges based on the remaining resources of the players, letting up a bit when they get beaten down or bearing down when they're not breaking a sweat?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be trivial to make AI that would destroy the players. The AI after all can "cheat" as no information is hidden from it. But even if it simulated just normal senses for the AI minions, it could still easily beat you. It will always have perfect aim, perfect timing, perfect positioning, etc.
The challenge is actually making an AI that is JUST GOOD ENOUGH to challenge most players without being so good that it TPKs all the time. Nobody aw to to play against AI that usually wins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please don't pull a diablo 3 and make mobs with un-regulated variable combinations of abilities that result in near no-win scenarios.
No mob should be able to lock you in place and blast the crap out of you, that is a combo that should be reserved for bosses.
Also, don't make the bosses the easy part.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please don't pull a diablo 3 and make mobs with un-regulated variable combinations of abilities that result in near no-win scenarios.
No mob should be able to lock you in place and blast the crap out of you, that is a combo that should be reserved for bosses.
Also, don't make the bosses the easy part.
I would take that statement a step further, don't make ANY no win combinations of abilities. Personally I would rather most mobs have the same type of abilities as PCs, and in the same regard I also don't want player combinations that have any stun-lock, auto win situations, I would rather not see those as any combination of classes, and especially not if it is possible with one person via multiclassing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would take that statement a step further, don't make ANY no win combinations of abilities. Personally I would rather most mobs have the same type of abilities as PCs,...
When you fight a 'boss' there should be situations that you have to avoid. I've never played an enjoyable boss fight that didn't keep the high damage/low health players on their toes. I have never found it fun to plant your self down and tank/spank a boss.
Also, how do you justify limiting a giant monster boss the same abilities as the players? I would want to see any humanoid boss limited to the same skillsets, but if i fight a dragon, it should have something like 'tail-bash' that deals a crap-ton of damage if it hits you and you are not heavy defensively built.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would take that statement a step further, don't make ANY no win combinations of abilities. Personally I would rather most mobs have the same type of abilities as PCs,...
When you fight a 'boss' there should be situations that you have to avoid. I've never played an enjoyable boss fight that didn't keep the high damage/low health players on their toes. I have never found it fun to plant your self down and tank/spank a boss.
Also, how do you justify limiting a giant monster boss the same abilities as the players? I would want to see any humanoid boss limited to the same skillsets, but if i fight a dragon, it should have something like 'tail-bash' that deals a crap-ton of damage if it hits you and you are not heavy defensively built.
I never said bosses can't or shouldn't have unique abilities, I said "most mobs" not all mobs. The only statment I made that was blanket, was nothing should have massive zero win abilities as in major stun locks, infinitely repeatable chains that have no counters etc...
Bosses should absolutely have powerful attacks, and I would love it if they also did not follow a set pattern with the same strategy and pattern beating them every time. Especially not dragons (dragons are supposed to be smart, not half witted brutes repeating the same string of attacks consecutively and then being supprised that the players are moving out of the way of his attack before he even starts it).
So yeah I have zero issue with mob specific abilities, I expect dragons to have tail whips, flaming breath etc... I expect necromancer bosses to be summoning undead that are leaps and bounds above players. I support incorpeal creatures fading in and out of walls, purple worms burrowing etc.. etc... The thing I am specifically against, is lock combinations that can hold a player or group indefinently.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Well, lets keep things in that RP context. After all many of us here have had the "joy" of being the processing engine for "Mobs" in table-top RPGs. Very rarely are is GM without the same kinds of information that an AI look-up table has. What's different is how quickly a GM can change established scripts and make the "AI" do things outside a player's expectations.
Personally this is where Controlled random chance can make for some seriously WTF moments. Onishi, the only way to keep a boss or any AI from having established patterns that can be learned, predicted, and dissected is to include a touch of randomness. The downside is as we all know sometimes random leads to un-winable situations. Take Skyrims % chance that the Dragon just eats you if it does enough damage in a hit. I've been rag-dolled more then a few times, and lost my head, run through the middle, skull crushed... because of the way Bethesda setup that critical hit system.
I guess what I'm thinking of as "random" can be summed up in various RoosterTeeth Fails of Week and GameFails where either the environment goes odd, the interaction of AI and the environment goes wrong, etc. Most common are Halo Grunts doing just stupid things with sticky grenades.
I also think it should depend on the intelligence of the creature itself..low intelligent should act like it and high intelligent should use tactics and whatnot to take you down. I have played MMO's where the creatures (MOBS) act like statues or walk specific pre determined lines and patterns over and over. I have seen some games that if you attack one creature close to another or a encampment it alerts the rest if you do not take him down in time (which i enjoy).
Other games i kill one creature next to another and it does nothing until i hit the next (terrible in my opinion). Or the famous i hit a wolf and all of a sudden a deer and a boar all attack me becuase they are on the same aggro string. Having a wolf, deer and a boar at the same time just puzzles me..what would allow them in the natural order of nature to attack a single foe like they were allied. (yes i suppose if they were under some spell or controlled by some greater power but this was not the case)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, to be honest, heres the way that I see it. Yes there are mobs in the game that should act "without a brain" and do nothing but attack you relentlessly. Most creatures of low intelligence will only do as much in real life so why expect any more out of them in a video game; however, there are some creatures that are a little smarter than your average bear and should be treated as such.
For example, there was a game I ran with some friends a while back, It took place in a maze that was composed of plants(various types of shrubs, hedges and the like). As the players began their way through the maze, They were attacked by a small trio of creatures that popped out of the hedges and harrowed them with spells that hurled thorns and splinters at the PC's and then the creatures would again dissappear as quickly as the came. The heroes were only able to get a couple of swings in on them before they once again became a part of the hedges. what's more is the creatures were restricted to the plantlife, BUT they had spells like entangle which would then allow them to move around more freely. It was really an interesting strategy that I had never seen before and although i can see how it must have been frustrating from the players view, once the things had been defeated, everyone looked back on the combat and saw it as a rather memorable experience.
These are the kinds of strategies that I would like to see come alive in pathfinder online. To be completely honest I would rather have 600 intelligent mobs that made the game more interesting than 6,000,000 that existed for nothing more than to be mindlessly slaughtered for fluff XP.
It would be trivial to make AI that would destroy the players. The AI after all can "cheat" as no information is hidden from it. But even if it simulated just normal senses for the AI minions, it could still easily beat you. It will always have perfect aim, perfect timing, perfect positioning, etc.
The challenge is actually making an AI that is JUST GOOD ENOUGH to challenge most players without being so good that it TPKs all the time. Nobody aw to to play against AI that usually wins.
I just wanted to say that by no means was I insinuating that the mobs should be so powerful that they leave the corpses of players in thier wake! All I meant was that I really don't want to see the same cookie cutter mob mechanics that ive seen in every other mmo. I.E. I run up and attack.... mob attacks back... mob low on health... mob heal..... mob low on health again.. mob run away... player chases mob.... mob dead... loot and repeat... Gets kinda boring after the 1,000,000,000 time of repetition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just wanted to say that by no means was I insinuating that the mobs should be so powerful that they leave the corpses of players in thier wake! All I meant was that I really don't want to see the same cookie cutter mob mechanics that ive seen in every other mmo. I.E. I run up and attack.... mob attacks back... mob low on health... mob heal..... mob low on health again.. mob run away... player chases mob.... mob dead... loot and repeat... Gets kinda boring after the 1,000,000,000 time of repetition....
That is what PVP is for, you are never going to have a PvE system that isn't a cookie cutter to some degree. There needs to be an intuitive mind behind your enemy for combat to remain 'fresh', otherwise it is just a matter of time until all the winning strategies are discovered.
The past few years have been flooding the market with PVE games, such as DCUO and SW:TOR their biggest pitfall is that the content ends, the only way to keep PvE combat fresh is to add new content. And the players have proved that they can run through the content you create 1000 times faster than you create it, and 'play it again' is a horrible way to try and keep customers. Players need to provide the bulk of the content.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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However PvP can also become little more the ritualized formality as "optimal" builds and combat strategies are developed. Even in EVE many ship engagements devolve into who brought the most guns of the right type and the "fun" typically comes from the build-up to the actual engagement. When it comes down to the actual combat it's about forcing or looking for the other side with the advantage to make a mistake.
What I rarely see in MMOs is a good balance between PvE and PvP. Or better still PvE and PvP interlaced. Action RTS games are perhaps the closest but generally have rather low quality AI.
I would point out that CCP has been working on AI that mimic some of the qualities of PvP combat. Target switching, maneuvering for better firing angles, internship support, etc. It's not quite a tough as actual PvP but in terms of the things a fleet has to do to survive it is far more like PvP then PvE.
Ultimately what Players bring to a combat isn't intuition but chaos. Live players do things that are either:
1) Stupid
2) Heroic
3) Mistakes
4) Brilliant
Much of that is interchangeable. You can make an AI do similar things, however you end up in the same situation as PvP, where there can be a slight to good chance of actually having an un-winable situation for one side or the other.
AI generally don't make "mistakes" or exploit player "mistakes". That doesn't mean they can't. It just means as Mr. Dancey points out the AI ends up winning. Typically people don't like being out cheated (read smarted) by the computer because we know that it's not a real brain that did it.
Outside of what CCP is doing I haven't seen to many games that include AI where there is a chance of loosing even when bringing ideal forces and strategies.
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Personally I'm a fan of emergent behavior. Create a set of rather simple rules and the let the agent elements interact to form the complex system. Take meta-level events such as goblin population. While the programming would be complex you don't need a script every part.
• Set rules for goblins in proximity to each other.
--> How big of groups do they from before the start fighting each other for resources, etc.
• Set a chance of spawning charismatic leaders
--> That overcome the limitations of the above rules
• Set rules of a meta-level goblin army/nation behavior
--> How does it react to nearby NPC or PC factions
• Allow this meta-level NPC group to modify spawn behaviors in regions to mimic an army on the move.
You now have an underlying system for the possible emergence of a goblin army and that starts marauding about the country side. Included in those rules are the handful scripted events Players can use to either turn the tide or exacerbate things.
Port most of those rules and tweak them for Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Orcs, etc. Now you have a randomly generating theme-park event of limited time scale, and partly predicable nature, but still behaves much like an aggressive PC faction. Throw in group NPC dynamics similar to what CCP has created for their higher end PvE just to make that much harder.
Yes you'll get the "oh gods its another goblin rebellion" factor but you get the same things for PvP and inter kingdom/guild fights. "Oh god not another War Dec (war declaration, EVE term) from a griefing Merc corp." However, because the whole thing is generated from lower level rules and not imposed; different factors will change how such an event plays out. The Goblin Planes War of 20XX may not play out the same as the Goblin Quest for Forest Fire of 21XX.
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PvP is emergent behavior. We just have more complex low level rulesets. An AI never has to get up and go to the bathroom in the middle of a fight. ;P
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Grey Lensman, have you fought Sleepers in EVE? Yes they were predicable in the same ways players in EVE fight predictably in PvP. There are certain patterns and shifting targeting priority almost every fleet follows. That doesn't stop it from being a heck of a lot tougher then standard WoWish blind Agro styles.
What I'm talking about is a dynamic AI following very similar rules that Players actually follow. If the mobs prefer squishies but the pathing to the squishy takes it through a death gauntlet it may not actually charge guy wearing cloth. Variation can be achieved through occasional random number generation.
Lets layout an example monster AI:
The Ghoul is a good one. Combat wise they like:
• Lightly Armored (looks at player armor)
• Low Fort Save (looks at player class and physical stats, maybe even level)
They dislike
• Heavy Armor (looks at player armor)
• High Fort Save (looks at player class and physical stats, maybe even level)
• Getting hit (looks a player class & stats, possibly level to determine "risk")
Things that make want to attack:
• Strong "things they like"
• Ranged damage with no cover the AI can use
• Random Generation to kick Likes/Dislikes one way or another over time.
• Risk to other Mobs
In a very simple model you have now 9 different rules telling it how to advance toward different players. It "wants" to get at the squishy wizard but if the risk and dislike is to high because of the fighter standing next to the wizard it may not even close to melee. The interplay of those rule, the other active Mobs in the area, positioning, pathing, etc. create a dynamic situation that could see some ghouls rush in and mob the group while a few ghouls hanging on the fringe and then suddenly darting in to take a swing at the rogue or wizard before backing out and way from the defending fighter. Or a full ghoul mosh pit, or all of them hanging back. The fight won't be exactly the same each time because player positions will shift, different random numbers will set off different reactions. Yes there is an over all understandable method by which a Ghoul but the ways to influence and control the fight aren't set in stone either.
Now throw in some brainless Zombines to reduce the "risk" of the fighter and things get quite different.
If you like I could see about dusting off my creaky old NetLogo skills and building a sample model.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If you like I could see about dusting off my creaky old NetLogo skills and building a sample model.Please do! This sounds amazing, and I'd love all the information I can get.
Why not then. I'm on summer hiatus. As I said I'm very rust with NetLogo programming. GoogleDoc as blog/design-doc
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just wanted to say that by no means was I insinuating that the mobs should be so powerful that they leave the corpses of players in thier wake! All I meant was that I really don't want to see the same cookie cutter mob mechanics that ive seen in every other mmo. I.E. I run up and attack.... mob attacks back... mob low on health... mob heal..... mob low on health again.. mob run away... player chases mob.... mob dead... loot and repeat... Gets kinda boring after the 1,000,000,000 time of repetition....
That is what PVP is for, you are never going to have a PvE system that isn't a cookie cutter to some degree. There needs to be an intuitive mind behind your enemy for combat to remain 'fresh', otherwise it is just a matter of time until all the winning strategies are discovered.
The only reason i know you say this it just hasnt been done before.. But just because it hasnt been tried before doesnt mean its not possible. Other mmo's choose to make "cookie cutter" mmos because it cheap to design millions of mobs the exact same way and then change the skins. But because goblinworks is trying for something atypical of the current mmo market, following cookie cutter AI systems is not a good idea.
I dont know if you have ever tried playing terra, but they really have come up with an original approach to combat. Everyone in terra is given a reticle through which you target creatures, you must place the reticle over the creature AND activate a chosen ability to achieve a hit. If you fail to place the reticle over over the creature when you attack, you miss. Pretty simple system, which forces players to rely on some amount of skill and not completely on gear and abilities. This probably isnt the path that PFO will take, but this is the out of the box thinking that I think developers need to consider when creating a revolutionary mmorpg.
I Also would like to see what you can come up with on netlogo dorje, kind of excited really.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to say, that I think there can be some ‘intelligence’ added to the MOBs without excessive difficulty. I also think these mobs can be made MUCH more interesting without giving them the power to wipe out any character.
(I want to qualify that with, I do hope there are some monsters like Dragons which are truly epic, and take large teams of players to effectively kill. Given GoblinWorks desire to encourage team work I anticipate this.)
For the sake of this thread, let’s talk just simple basic tactics. Dorje Sylas has mentioned Ghouls, so I will mention Kobolds.
As a general rule, Kobolds need to outnumber PCs by a margin of 2-1 or they will simply flee. If at anytime during the battle, the number of players is greater than the number of Kobolds, then they will run. (Make this interesting. The Kobolds run in all directions. Your ranged characters must act fast, because if they truly get away, they will run to the hideout, and return with many more. Imagine the caviler riding the last one down, only to run into the hideout, with the party some distance away. Oops! But great fun.)
Kobolds generally prefer ambushes. They might set them up on the roadways, of the fast travel lanes, ect. There they will set traps, to slow, disorient, or mame the party member, while the rest of them gang up on the trapped guy. They will ALWAYS gang up on the one in the trap, even if it is the tank. When the battle turns for the PCs, they run! BUT, if the tank in the trap was killed, and some Kobolds got away, they might return in greater numbers before the tank can arrive to her hulk to collect her belongings. Forcing the remaining party to fight them off, or simply drive them off.
Now, this kind of ‘Tactic’ would not be epic to program. Nor would it make the Kobolds unbeatable. But it would make them interesting, so long as all the other mobs don’t act exactly the same way.
Edit:
I would like to add: While not wanting to put demands on the developers, and the idea that any aspect of a game this complex will make-or-break the game, there is one thing I would like to insist on.
Monsters MUST react to any combat near them. I should not be able to engage in combat while a nearby monster is unaware only 45’ away!
ALL monsters should react to combat within sight, even if they run away. However, combat is loud. I have never heard a fireball spell go off, but it must be loud. Monsters with bonus hearing perception should be able to hear and react to the combat beyond line-of-sight.
This also works the other way. Elf characters should hear the explosions or other combat further away than human characters. (Although magic items will change that.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Monsters MUST react to any combat near them. I should not be able to engage in combat while a nearby monster is unaware only 45’ away!
ALL monsters should react to combat within sight, even if they run away. However, combat is loud. I have never heard a fireball spell go off, but it must be loud. Monsters with bonus hearing perception should be able to hear and react to the combat beyond line-of-sight.
100% in agreement, I have lost count of how many MMO's I have played where you casually are slaughtering X enemy 2" from his friends, who even walk through you or right past you, without thinking twice, while you systematically pick them off 1 at a time. Fight or flee, Sit there like an idiot should only be happening if the creature has 0 int score, or is under magical distraction of some sort.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Bugger me. Building agent behaviors, even with the help of digging into the sample projects, is tough. I'll update my GoogleDoc on Sunday but I'm still working on basic collision detection to stop the ghouls from standing on each other and the wizard... and the fighter. I do have a short screencast demo of what I've got so far. Sadly it's little better then a modification of the flocking model at this point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only problem with running to get help is that you can end up pulling the entire world in on you. You pull the goblins in towards you, and they shout for help. The next set of goblins hears the cry, shouts about "kill the longshanks!" and run off. Group 3 hears it, hollers about it, and starts running in. Soon enough, you've got a huge number of creatures piling in.
NPCs in LOS running in is fine, but no shouting for reinforcements, please.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Shouting for reinforcements is great, in certain circumstances. Hopefully there will be situations where a small group of stealthy characters can sneak in and do minimal killing without alerting the rest of the camp/castle/whatever.
Obviously, no one wants a situation where the first pull brings 1,000 goblins. I don't expect we need to worry about them doing that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Shouting for reinforcements is great, in certain circumstances. Hopefully there will be situations where a small group of stealthy characters can sneak in and do minimal killing without alerting the rest of the camp/castle/whatever.
Obviously, no one wants a situation where the first pull brings 1,000 goblins. I don't expect we need to worry about them doing that.
I also agree, for the concept to work, 2 things I can think of off the top of my head, which are prefferable anyway.
Groups of enemies need to be more spread out, and I don't imagine range of sound really being that much larger than sight. As long as they can avoid the infinite wave issue one way or another, it still makes far more sense.
One of the things that I hated in WoW... in an instance casting fear, was an instant suicide... why? Because under a magic spell designed to make enemies act irrationally, the action they inevitably take, is drastically better then what they would do if they were in control of themselves...
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Goblin Squad Member
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the goblin was smart enough to bring his friends, what about you?
Exactly, IMO most likely both players, and NPCs will be traveling in packs. A group of players will not easilly allow for one in their group to mindlessly wander off to the side, get into a fight and die with the rest of his party none the wiser, The monsters, should be a very similar case. They shouldn't be linked to the point where it is imposible for them not to call for help, but if they are at the end of their roaming range (IE as far from their friends as they can get), and get shot in the foot by an arrow, the first response should not be, Charge the 6 adventurers alone.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The only problem with running to get help is that you can end up pulling the entire world in on you. You pull the goblins in towards you, and they shout for help. The next set of goblins hears the cry, shouts about "kill the longshanks!" and run off. Group 3 hears it, hollers about it, and starts running in. Soon enough, you've got a huge number of creatures piling in.
NPCs in LOS running in is fine, but no shouting for reinforcements, please.
This assumes Group 2 isn't busy with some other task. And Group 3 for that matter. Group 1's survivor could run around all day screaming that the "end times are nigh," but if that alarm isn't sufficient to get the other AIs notice then no flood. Is Group 3 even from the same tribe(faction tag variable/list)? Do the Clangy Metal Bits care (as defined by a mathematical algorithm) that Fire Smoocher scouts are being slaughtered? At what point do they care?
Okay so group 2 is now in the mix, Group 3 heard them charging in or could make that assumption (AI can determine/remember were "fellow" AI are) and "decided" at Group 1 + Group 2 is enough.
Until someone in Group 2 starts shouting for help. This then triggers a decision calculation if reinforcing is a "good" idea. Actually such a function would be there in Group 2.
Again coming from an agent stand point. If one builds the monsters with their own goals and motivations then you can give the AI ways to react to different situations. In a worst case ya, you could end up brining a whole goblin tribe down on you. Unlikely but possible, and very different from existing MMOs. The possibility of getting into an unwinable sitution is what PvP offers, but should not be PvPs domain alone. What would happen in WoW if "word" gets back to the Lich King that a party is romping super speed through his minions. Maybe he "decides" that meeting them sooner is better then waiting to see if the guards can handle it. Maybe he brings some more guards with him.
I still rememberer in Diablo (not 2) multiplayer when my brother and I ran into the Skeleton King outside is little dungeon area for the first time. What I clearly recall is my brother screaming, then his character "walking" by followed shortly by the Skeleton King and a train of archers. Was it an unwinable and unexpected situation? Not unwinable but it sure was unexpected and much harder then anticipated. Also funny/fun... to me at least.
The yelling for support and running away have already been in other games like EQ and such, so it should be something they can accomplish.
What I would like to see that I have been asking for years on boards are mobs that gather in an area not too far from towns and such and start building a little town of their own. If not kept in check, the town will get bigger and become a threat to the other town. If the mob town is big enough, they might even launch an attack.
I would like to see intelligence of that type at some point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The yelling for support and running away have already been in other games like EQ and such, so it should be something they can accomplish.
What I would like to see that I have been asking for years on boards are mobs that gather in an area not too far from towns and such and start building a little town of their own. If not kept in check, the town will get bigger and become a threat to the other town. If the mob town is big enough, they might even launch an attack.
I would like to see intelligence of that type at some point.
I believe you are in for a treat if the devs accomplish their stated goals for the game
Some hexes will have encampments—areas where monstrous humanoids have taken control of a space. Encampments begin as fairly small, easy-to-destroy sites, but left unchecked, they'll grow, become better defended, and produce more and harder opponents. They'll eventually escalate, spreading new encampments around the hex, and those encampments will develop as well. If you don't take care of your kobold problem when its small and manageable, you could end up with a full-blown kobold infestation making life hard for the whole hex. Finding these encampments and eliminating them will be a constant source of engagement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It has a reason that running away has not been on the "to do" list of mobs in most successful MMOs.
Mobs in MMOs are ment to be slain in droves. Literally millions of them will fall to your whatnot in the course of your "lifetime".
Now imagine every second mob would run when low on health when all you want to do is to kill that critter, loot it and get on.
That said it is fun to have mobs that have a role, such as healer mobs, ranged caster mobs, tanking mobs (that slow you or get a damage bonus on you if you hit their buddies or something) and follow a general tactic with this role such as healers staying back and trying to avoid you a bit.
But I am, too, in the camp of intelligence is for players and scripted behavior is for bosses.
I believe you are in for a treat if the devs accomplish their stated goals for the game
Some hexes will have encampments—areas where monstrous humanoids have taken control of a space. Encampments begin as fairly small, easy-to-destroy sites, but left unchecked, they'll grow, become better defended, and produce more and harder opponents. They'll eventually escalate, spreading new encampments around the hex, and those encampments will develop as well. If you don't take care of your kobold problem when its small and manageable, you could end up with a full-blown kobold infestation making life hard for the whole hex. Finding these encampments and eliminating them will be a constant source of engagement.
Wow, that is wonderful. I hope they are able to achieve this goal. Thanks for the quote!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to re-state my desire for MOBs to run away. I can easily see three scenarios for MOBs fleeing the scene.
1. To exit danger. This would be done for random MOBs, or those who are getting beat, and would normally run rather than stick it out just to get killed for no benefit. This MOB might drop loot, because to stop and pick it up, you would give them time to get away. This MOB might ‘hang out’ in the area, but would have it’s health at the lower value, and only recuperate slowly. Making it’s survival depend on the player being a not-so-good hunter. The only help this MOB could get, is if it actually ran across another friendly MOB party, and took shelter in the other group. However, not all MOBs get along, and the next group could just as easily kill the wounded MOB for the player. This would not be overbalanced, and would add a layer of intrigue to the basic MOB. (Not to mention making slow spells worth their weight in gold!)
2. To get an advantage. This MOB would flee to draw the player(s) in to an ambush, as part of the combat. Perhaps other MOBs are waiting around the corner, or there is a pit trap making the player climb out slowly while the ranged MOBs pepper them with arrows. It is even possible the skirmisher might exit the battle while his friends are distracting the party, while he sneaks around to the back to get at the people with little to no armor.
3. To get help. This should only be available to the MOBs which are created by their own campgrounds (MOB settlements). It is my understanding these will start small, and eventually grow if left unchecked. The MOB seeking help should only be able to pull from this group. So a Kobold infestation has 100 total Kobolds, and 6 are on patrol. The party finds the patrol, and kills 4, but 2 get away. Soon, there is a heavier armed patrol of 10 Kobolds. The party could have left the area, or they could remain, and kill those 10, only to have 14-16 come next time. So the party leaves, and goes to the other side of the camp, and finds another patrol of 6. I can envision this tactic used to draw down their numbers, or to draw the enemy away from the real attack on the camp.
In no case do I see a single escapee fleeing, and the next group comes 30 seconds later, followed by another group 30 seconds later, followed by . . .
I do want to add, If I must kill ‘Literally millions [of minions] . . . in the course of your “lifetime”.’ Then I would find the game a grind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea of a flood of goblins, coming at me in wave after wave until i loose my mind or have to run away from my keyboard for a bio-break is humorously awesome. If I let every 5th goblin get away to get more buddies, and there's still more back at the camp, I say let the behavior roll. That would be high-larious. Now if i choose to bail out, because its simply too much or they come in a wave too great to laugh at, I don't think they should chase me forever, but far enough to keep me thinking (sidenote: training a goblin tribe back to town would also be priceless). What i think should happen is a mob type will react to a stressful situation as makes sense for that creature. A Goblin should run, hide, drown in a bucket even when NOT under stress. A Hobgoblin should retreat, in formation, and rearm and reengage en force. Orcs might run, but in a random direction, Ogres might not run at all, Trolls should retreat to heal, etc etc.
Regarding the "Millions Killed" concept: While this might end up being true (eventually), in most themepark MMOs this is the requirement because you have to kill to get xp, xp to level, level to "have fun". In PFO killing stuff will have a purpose divested from progress on a personal level. You might want to kill goblins because their ears have bounties, their camp sits on some choice rare herbs, or they populate enough to cause drag on a local effort to build a Fort or Watchtower. You might wage war on a thousand Hobgoblins, but only because you and your alliance discovered that they've overrun an untouched Hex. It shouldn't feel like a grind, because it will have a purpose, some purpose greater than "I get some abstract advancement points".
Goblinworks Founder
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darkfall has the most intelligent mobs i have seen .they are practically bots equal to low level players
-they use cover and try to break line of sight when you shoot at them
-they drink pots and try to heal when in low life
-they try to kite you -keep their distance if they are ranged
-they leave when at low hp and try to cover or call for reinforcementsit is definitely not a case of .tab target mob press 1-2-3 move to the next mob
I loved the AI in Darkfall and it would be great if PFO had mobs that would do the above features when in those situations. I think it would be good to have a variety of mob styles that range from:
- Minions (fodder)Minions are low health, low morale and usually roam in groups. Designed to make players feel heroic but can still be a challenge in greater numbers. Minions could have a swarm attack that lets them knockdown a player if four or more attack a single player. Common Goblins, Zombies, Kobolds and rank & file soldiers or guards would make good minions.
The difficulty of mobs could start at minions and become more challenging with each class after with Regular Mobs (solo mob), Tough mobs (solo mini-boss), Very tough mobs (solo-boss), Group minions (group fodder), Group mobs etc etc
Things like Archers/ranged mobs not being fooled by LOS tactics has been used to great effect in games like Age of Conan, DDO and Darkfall. Minion mobs are also common in other MMos and I have always thought they were a great feature. To the point of missing well scripted mobs and minions when I play other games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One question that hasn't really come up in this thread yet is how much information about a mob's type and behavior should be available to players?
Should the typical /consider reveal things like whether a mob is likely to run for help? Please keep in mind that Ryan has already pointed out the problems in making this kind of information available based on Knowledge skills since it will inevitably end up all over the web anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One question that hasn't really come up in this thread yet is how much information about a mob's type and behavior should be available to players?
Should the typical /consider reveal things like whether a mob is likely to run for help? Please keep in mind that Ryan has already pointed out the problems in making this kind of information available based on Knowledge skills since it will inevitably end up all over the web anyway.
Yeah I would say short of random generated archtype abilities etc... There isn't much in the way of information that can be defined as "unavailable to the player", as wiki's are pretty solid on that.
Of course there is the possibility of say multiple grades of power within enemies that are indistinguishable to a player, in which the player can't tell which one he/she is facing until it uses an ability, unless he has the knowledge skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm more in favor of players learning the behaviors of the mobs organically, but allowing knowledge skills to reveal base stats, special abilities, etc. Sure the knowledge vs web info will always be a problem, but the key there is to provide enough randomness in the mobs that using a knowledge skill will reveal the specifics of the mob you're actually looking at. The web might have a Goblin as having a range of damage based on several factors, but if you mouse over the Goblin with the proper skill you get to see the exact details of that goblin. The inconvenience of switching to a browser to ID (with nebulous info) and plan towards the mob that is literally right in front of you should be enough to keep people who care to develop the skills in a good place. If someone doesn't care, and just wants to rampage, I think that's ok too, and that knowledge skills should have use, but not make or break the encounter
Part of this thinking on my part is also based on having a more nebulous naming convention for NPCs, where the 9 types of goblins don't have individualized names (Raging Goblin, Wandering Goblin, Goblin Shaman, Goblin WarShamwow, etc). That's an aspect of WoW in particular that i've grown to dislike pretty dramatically. Every label shouldn't have to be specific. It might also be awesome to have the Mobs assigned randomized Proper Nouns, and any label be , but that might be a bit much to ask. It would also be cool/fun to have the itemization of the mobs somewhat randomized, within reason. Arcane casters still shouldn't have too much in the way of heavy armor, but the trope of a Shaman caster type waving a feathered stick to identify himself is an old one, and I'm a bit tired of it. I'd love to see warrior types with a staff, and casters with a hand axe.
Just wondering would there be NPC Ais that aren't directly related to combats? In one of the Skyrim mod, it has an Ai change which makes animals going to water source each (ingame) day. This kind of similar actions could be applied to NPCs, for example, goblins leave their nest to collect food / drink, and if you hunt them down they might send a search team after a while to see what happens to the first party. It doesn't necessary increase combat difficulty, but may change the atmosphere of the game, and make it more dynamic (?)
Also would there be age difference in (monster / humanoid) npcs? For example cubs may be timid and shy, young adults can be brash, adults are ruthless, middle-aged ones can be cunning, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just wondering would there be NPC Ais that aren't directly related to combats? In one of the Skyrim mod, it has an Ai change which makes animals going to water source each (ingame) day. This kind of similar actions could be applied to NPCs, for example, goblins leave their nest to collect food / drink, and if you hunt them down they might send a search team after a while to see what happens to the first party. It doesn't necessary increase combat difficulty, but may change the atmosphere of the game, and make it more dynamic (?)
I certainly hope this kind of organic behavior will be present, since there has been so much emphasis on how players' actions will be motivated by concrete goals. If player behavior is going to be goal-driven (as opposed to grindy), then the monsters and other NPCs should simulate this as well.