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GoblinWorks,

I am concerned about your plan for group combat tactics for several reasons.

First, Real Life military units are good at tactics because they spent an enormous amount of time drilling. This drilling is not only tedious, it is boring. Adding any element to the game which is tedious or boring is not what you are interested in, and I can only imagine a very few would actually drill enough to make a difference.

Second, communication is much harder on an MMO than in real life. The chat window requires one to stop fighting to type, and then to look at the text to read. This communication problem will have to be resolved to make unit tactics even possible. This will require a Skype like connection within each group, so they can talk to each other.

Third, most tactics are EASY to defeat. The phalanx formation you mentioned is quite venerable to a flanking maneuver. Utilizing Hannibal’s maneuver you can defeat a phalanx in detail. A cavalry group should be able to flank a phalanx. You are planning on mounted combat right?

Lastly, Historical unit tactics will NOT work in pathfinder! Basically the tactics would not be effective because of the number of Area of Effect abilities running around the battle field. I can not imagine the Greeks using those tactics if someone had invented the hand grenade, or Molotov cocktail. The phalanx unit is just lining themselves up for a lightning bolt.

I would like to apologize for being so negative. I actually like to concept of teamwork, and find that aspect of PvP lacking greatly. However, the reality of most MMOs is there is already an advantage to working together. When my son and I play a PvP combat round in Star Wars the Old Republic we are far more effective than individually. Even to the point of taking on three enemies. (That is significant because I am a casual gamer, and generally drag him down.) This is effective because not only is he in the room, but he sits behind and to the right of me. We not only utilize verbal communication skills, he can see my screen, and can give me directions based on what I am seeing.

The main reason teamwork is emphasized in real life, and not in games is because the reduction in fun is not offset by any significant consequence. When dying in SWTOR, we are back in the fight within 15 seconds. So why team up? The survivability might be higher, but the fun is lower. Are you willing to make significant consequences to battle scenes, to make survivability much more important? There would probably be many complaints about lack of fun.

One way you could do that is when a battle between more than 10 on each side is going on, it disrupts the respawn points, requiring the dead character to respawn a minimum of one hex away. Also disrupt any fast travel into the area. (people can run away from the fight, just not run into the fight.) That would mean that characters who die in the combat must take significant time to get back to the combat, making their survival much more important.

A way to make grouping beneficial is to add bonuses based on the amount of support you have. Having a fighter nearby might boost your AC. Why? Because the fighter on your left means you do not need to worry about attacks coming from your left. Add in the law of diminishing returns, and you have a fairly good system which can not be too overpowered. For Example: A friendly fighter within 30’ of you gives you a 10% boost to your AC. A second friendly fighter only boosts your AC by 8%, the third 6%, Fourth by 4%, and fifth by 2%. With this, having 5 fighters nearby significantly increases your AC, but you as a developer can adjust these numbers to make that total boost be effective, but not able to be exploited. Different classes should boost different things. Clerics might boost saves, wizards might boost spell resistance, making the benefit of a diverse army nice.

Running away should be fairly easy to accomplish. Most MMOs have a different speed for when a character is in combat, and when they are not. Simply allow a character to switch out of combat by not utilizing an offensive ability for ___ seconds. The attacking foe is still slow, while the low health defender is getting faster. You could also include abilities, like ‘leg shot’ which does minimal actual damage, but slows the target down to be considered a defensive shot, and not reset the timer for moving into the faster state. Be careful with a timer which is too short; People might use the higher speed for tactical advantage in the middle of battle rather than to just run away.

On to actual tactics! Please include a system for tactics, and not the actual tactics themselves. What I mean, is include a ‘Tactical Editor’ which will allow for the commanders to create their own tactics. Even allow them to simulate and practice the tactics with their team mates. The bonuses can be set based on an algorithm, and how well the troops actually hold to the tactics. This will allow commanders to adapt their tactics to what mix of players they have, as well as to combat a known enemy’s tactics. It will also make defending tactics MUCH harder.

During combat, when a commander issues a tactical command, the screen should include an easy to follow visual clue to where your character should be, and what their area of responsibility should be. That way you reduce the amount of drilling the players need to do.

A players responsibility in a tactic might be class related. For example, an archer might have spell casters as their primary responsibility, other archers as a secondary responsibility, and mele characters as a tertiary responsibility. When the attacking army comes, as soon as a mele character is within range, they highlight, and a single keystroke will target that enemy. Even while engaged with that enemy, if a spell caster comes within range, then the highlight will move from the mele character to the spell caster, allowing the player to shift focus to the higher priority enemy.

A tactic might also be ability specific. Taking our above archer example, when the mele enemy comes within range, the desired ability might be ‘leg shot’ intended to slow the enemy rather than just pure damage. In that case, the desired tactical ability would also highlight.

By making the tactics player generated, they will be MUCH more fun. I also think they will be more effective. (Never underestimate the creativity of people!) I can imagine playing with a small group of friends, and we each take turns leading the group, and making our own tactics for the specific group. It would also be great, if we could integrate those small unit tactics into the larger group tactics of major combat. The commander would issue more generalized tactics to their squad leaders, who would in turn issue their squad level tactics to their specific squad.

To the developers: Thank you, for making Pathfinder Online a game which will not try to mimic the table top version. I enjoy the table top game, and am currently in a campaign; However, it is far better to create this game with the intent of keeping the ‘feel’ of the table top game without requiring the mechanics.

I would also like for the developers to not try to mimic other MMOs. It is great to use a similar concept, but too many of the MMOs feel like the same thing over-and-over.

I would like to re-state my desire for MOBs to run away. I can easily see three scenarios for MOBs fleeing the scene.

1. To exit danger. This would be done for random MOBs, or those who are getting beat, and would normally run rather than stick it out just to get killed for no benefit. This MOB might drop loot, because to stop and pick it up, you would give them time to get away. This MOB might ‘hang out’ in the area, but would have it’s health at the lower value, and only recuperate slowly. Making it’s survival depend on the player being a not-so-good hunter. The only help this MOB could get, is if it actually ran across another friendly MOB party, and took shelter in the other group. However, not all MOBs get along, and the next group could just as easily kill the wounded MOB for the player. This would not be overbalanced, and would add a layer of intrigue to the basic MOB. (Not to mention making slow spells worth their weight in gold!)
2. To get an advantage. This MOB would flee to draw the player(s) in to an ambush, as part of the combat. Perhaps other MOBs are waiting around the corner, or there is a pit trap making the player climb out slowly while the ranged MOBs pepper them with arrows. It is even possible the skirmisher might exit the battle while his friends are distracting the party, while he sneaks around to the back to get at the people with little to no armor.
3. To get help. This should only be available to the MOBs which are created by their own campgrounds (MOB settlements). It is my understanding these will start small, and eventually grow if left unchecked. The MOB seeking help should only be able to pull from this group. So a Kobold infestation has 100 total Kobolds, and 6 are on patrol. The party finds the patrol, and kills 4, but 2 get away. Soon, there is a heavier armed patrol of 10 Kobolds. The party could have left the area, or they could remain, and kill those 10, only to have 14-16 come next time. So the party leaves, and goes to the other side of the camp, and finds another patrol of 6. I can envision this tactic used to draw down their numbers, or to draw the enemy away from the real attack on the camp.

In no case do I see a single escapee fleeing, and the next group comes 30 seconds later, followed by another group 30 seconds later, followed by . . .

I do want to add, If I must kill ‘Literally millions [of minions] . . . in the course of your “lifetime”.’ Then I would find the game a grind.

I am not certain on the number of inhabitants will be required for the creating and maintaining of a settlement; However, I suspect it will be lower than you might think. First, I expect any group starting a settlement will post bounty’s for the elimination of wandering monsters, or rival watchtowers. The actual clearing of the hex might not necessarily be done by charter members.

I myself plan to be a merchant specializing in the processing of low end items. Things like lumber, stone, food, ect. I plan on watching for new settlements very intently, and will hire people to transport the needed goods to the area. This will eliminate the time necessary to harvest the goods locally. Build the fort, then the settlement, THEN build the local infrastructure. My hope is, I can store enough goods, and keep the price low enough that my services will be of great benefit to the settlement, and they will allow me to open a processing shop without requiring me to be a charter member. Protecting my caravans, and not attacking my caravans in other areas, without officially aligning my caravans to their settlement, making them a large target for the rival settlements.

I would like to say, that I think there can be some ‘intelligence’ added to the MOBs without excessive difficulty. I also think these mobs can be made MUCH more interesting without giving them the power to wipe out any character.

(I want to qualify that with, I do hope there are some monsters like Dragons which are truly epic, and take large teams of players to effectively kill. Given GoblinWorks desire to encourage team work I anticipate this.)

For the sake of this thread, let’s talk just simple basic tactics. Dorje Sylas has mentioned Ghouls, so I will mention Kobolds.

As a general rule, Kobolds need to outnumber PCs by a margin of 2-1 or they will simply flee. If at anytime during the battle, the number of players is greater than the number of Kobolds, then they will run. (Make this interesting. The Kobolds run in all directions. Your ranged characters must act fast, because if they truly get away, they will run to the hideout, and return with many more. Imagine the caviler riding the last one down, only to run into the hideout, with the party some distance away. Oops! But great fun.)

Kobolds generally prefer ambushes. They might set them up on the roadways, of the fast travel lanes, ect. There they will set traps, to slow, disorient, or mame the party member, while the rest of them gang up on the trapped guy. They will ALWAYS gang up on the one in the trap, even if it is the tank. When the battle turns for the PCs, they run! BUT, if the tank in the trap was killed, and some Kobolds got away, they might return in greater numbers before the tank can arrive to her hulk to collect her belongings. Forcing the remaining party to fight them off, or simply drive them off.

Now, this kind of ‘Tactic’ would not be epic to program. Nor would it make the Kobolds unbeatable. But it would make them interesting, so long as all the other mobs don’t act exactly the same way.

Edit:
I would like to add: While not wanting to put demands on the developers, and the idea that any aspect of a game this complex will make-or-break the game, there is one thing I would like to insist on.

Monsters MUST react to any combat near them. I should not be able to engage in combat while a nearby monster is unaware only 45’ away!

ALL monsters should react to combat within sight, even if they run away. However, combat is loud. I have never heard a fireball spell go off, but it must be loud. Monsters with bonus hearing perception should be able to hear and react to the combat beyond line-of-sight.

This also works the other way. Elf characters should hear the explosions or other combat further away than human characters. (Although magic items will change that.)

A Processor
Not the crafter which makes the items adventurers need, but the processor who makes the items the crafters need. Buying the raw materials from the harvesters, processing then distributing these goods.

It is my intention to be more of a merchant. I will probably spend most of my time figuring out how to get the goods from this town, to that city.

My ultimate goal would be creating the equivalent of the East India Trading Company. Remain neutral and not affiliated with any town. Bring in large amounts of supplies at low prices. This will make the rulers interested in keeping my supply lines open. Agreeing to never harvest, as long as the raw materials are supplied in sufficient quantities, should keep the harvesters happy. Providing a copious quantities of a wide variety of goods, should keep the crafters happy. Since I would only be transporting the ‘middle’ goods, which are a no use to an adventurer who does not have the appropriate crafting skills, that would make my caravans less attractive of targets.

I am thinking of making exclusive contracts. I will supply all the materials, in sufficient quantities, at reasonable prices, and the crafter only buys from me.

Contracts with the governors. I will supply the town with various food supplies, and wood ect, and they will keep the road safe, and pass laws outlawing (with harsh penalties) the hijacking of caravans.

Contracting with the bandits. I will supply your camp with the supplies necessary so you can focus on killing, but you must never attack my brand of caravan.

Contracting with guards to transport goods.

It is going to be fun!

At this point there is no information from GoblinWorks on magic mechanics. Any information would be a suggestion, or speculation. Having said that, I can envision a system which utilizes several aspects of the table top version, and several MMOs.

I suspect there will be a certain number of spell slots (Active spells), and a list of known spells. A Wizard will have a few spell slots, and a lot of known spells. A sorcerer will have more spell slots, and fewer known spells. The character must be in a ‘Safe Area’ to change out spells in their spell slots. I put safe area in quotes, because once you get beyond the NPC towns, nowhere will be truly safe; However, I suspect that a town, or fort will be considered safe enough.

I expect the use on individual spell cooldowns. This will prevent the caster from casting the same spell over and over. This cool down will not necessarily prevent casting other spells.

The overall casting may be mana based. However, if it self regens, I expect it to regen slowly. That is because GoblinWorks has expressed a true desire to have a real functioning economy, and a potion of mana would be a consumable, which would have massive demand if it was necessary for the effective return of mana. If that is the case, then the potion needs to be easy to make (just a few ingredients) and those ingredients are common. Then early farmers could easily create many potions of mana to keep the price very low. They could also make more powerful mana potions from more rare ingredients, and harder to make; Yet, to create demand for those more expensive potions they would need to add in a restriction like, you can only drink 1 mana potion during combat. With that in place, there would be a high demand for the ultra cheap potions, to refill mana outside of combat, and an equally high demand for the more effective potions.

One problem with a dedicated caster, is that I suspect they will be difficult to play solo. They will really need martial characters to be effective. If a spell caster takes a few skills as rogue or fighter, then they might survive solo easier, but would be less effective as a spell caster. This would make it reasonable for the capstone skill for the pure spell caster to be phenomenal. The player will have deserved it.

In my opinion 4500 per month is legitimate.

This MMO has some significant differences than others. It would be better to expand slowly, and adjust the game as necessary, than to open the flood gates only to have the entire player base mad because no one can heal due to the lack of farming the important common ingredient. With only a few players suffering through until the crafting groups get going, and then healing potions are 10 for a gp. (or whatever the currency is.)

Don’t forget the currency. In the beginning, there isn’t any money in the players hands. No one has any. No one can offer any quest to another, because they don’t have the money to attract anyone to do the quest. There will be some time, when the players craft things just to sell them to the town merchant so they can get money into players hands.

The first three months will be very trying for the players. They have ‘Paid’ for the game, and will spend a lot of time working on the infrastructure. Building roads, the next town, ect. Not exactly the heart pounding thrill most are hoping for. Don’t forget the programming bugs, or balance issues. Everyone screams when their class gets nerfed because a particular skill makes their character over powered. Much better to have that happen with a small group, than the masses.

I also don’t think the initial group will be just the extensively experienced players either, or those on the message boards, or those which gave significant money. Obviously many players will come from this group, but GoblinWorks has stated several times they are serious about the casual gamer. The gamer who plays 10 to 12 hours a week, should be close in power to those who play 8 hours a day. They will need a significant number of these players from the start, to insure the character progression does not leave them behind. If I had a guess, I would say between 600 to 900 in the first month, and consistently higher percentages in the few months which follow.

I am not exactly certain how buildings are going to work. If I create a processing building to refine some iron ore into iron ingots, and only I can use that building, then a leasing contract might be available. I could lease time on the building.

Leasing contract:
Depending on the mechanics of buildings: If I create a processing building to refine some iron ore into iron ingots, and only I can use that building, then a leasing contract might be beneficial to both me, and others. Can lease the building for a given amount of time, or lease the building for a given amount of product, say 10 tons of iron.

If a building is usable by anyone who is a member of the township where it is built, then the leasing contract would be different, but still possible, a means for the township to earn extra taxes. Perhaps not a contract, but a usage fee. Members of the township get to use the building for a fee of ___, while outsiders pay extra. One problem with this method is the only buildings which get built are the ones the governor wants to build.

Leasing could work for non stationary items as well. Think siege equipment, ship, ect. . .

Some additional economic concepts I have been thinking about:

I have been thinking about farms, and how they could be utilized in Pathfinder Online, while making them interesting, and keeping with the flow of the game. First, farmed plants could provide the necessary materials for certain potions, or alchemical ammunition. However, unless you are going to make self-healing impossible without a potion, their use will be limited, and a single large farm could supply all the (insert plant name here) the world would need. At least until you got a very large number of players. But food variety being important for commoner health and happiness, would provide incentives for farms, and demand for farmed goods. If the soil type, and temperature made growing conditions great for some plants, but terrible for others, then true variety of food would come from many sources, creating the player demand based economy you are looking for. This will also mean that great empires can not survive on the powerful might of a few characters. To build a great empire they will need a lot of common folk, meaning they will need a lot of a diverse food supply, fueling additional economic factors.

Warehouses and shops are two types of buildings that must be able to be built. If a player process a particular good, then wants to transport that good to a far away city for use in that city by their crafters, then they will need to have access to a warehouse. Either they can build one, or perhaps they can lease space from someone who does have one (adding another aspect to the economy). They will also need to have a store where to sell their wares. The store could be covered by an auction house.

Blacklisting should be a merchant’s option as well as a bounty for those who attack them or their wares. By adding the ability to prevent the sale of their goods to the attackers, and the attacking party, the merchant has an additional tool they can use to discourage the attacks. I also think there should be the ability to blacklist the larger groups. A guild that makes it’s living from attacking merchants, then those merchants band together with other merchants and blacklist the entire guild or city-state. This could be used to help the merchants fight back, and make it difficult for the guild to get the variety of goods necessary to supply a large network.

I am sorry that my post fell into a level topic. It was not my intention. I am reading the blog very slowly. I read one topic, then think about that topic, and decide if I have any positive or negative input the developers might consider. The purpose of this post was to point out the good things (complex economy) that they are considering, and perhaps some additional twists they might not have considered.

The point about the levels was based on my experience with PvP environments. I have not yet read the section on skills. I will, and I will add posts there. I find that very exciting as well. However, my concern still stands. Finn stated “the dangers you describe are exactly the intended driving force behind an economy that can support mercenary guardsmen, etc.” indicating to me that there are people just as excited about camping trade routes and I am about making trade routes. I am OK with that so long as I have an effective means of fighting back!

So, if a L19 character camps out near resources which are generally harvested by L10 characters. The L10 players need an effective retaliation tool. So, if 3 L10 characters whose skills have been focused on combat, then escort the caravan, and the lone L19 attacks, and the three L10s can defeat the sole L19, then great. The L10 who got zapped by the high level player has an effective means of fighting back. Finding other similar leveled players should not be hard, and they should be able to afford it. Spending 6 months of savings to hire a L19 to fight the L19, just to have the original L19 come back next week, is not really an option. If the L10 player has no ability to fight back, then the game quickly becomes no fun.

First, I am very excited about the complex economy concept. I am aware that when the coding is underway, and the deadline looms, that some things just have to get cut. Please don’t make this one of them. I would play more for the merchant aspect than adventuring.

I cannot imagine a powerful mage class without a portal or teleport spell. This would significantly change the dynamics of transportation. I am curious how you intend to utilize this. Perhaps that might make a mage useful as a wagon master. Perhaps the teleport spells will be limited in weight, and a mage can easily teleport 5 people, but that does not equate to a single large wagon. And bulk items like lumber, and iron would need many such wagons. Rare magic crystals, might be small enough to carry on the person without a wagon.

I also like the substitute materials. Does this mean there will be different types of the same base material, like types of wood? Hickory makes the best bows due to it’s flexible properties. You could make a bow from maple, but it would be less effective (perhaps shorter range.) A wooden shield on the other hand would be best made from Maple or Ash. A wand from poplar, a town wall or gate from Oak. A complex commodity would make it easier for a player to set up a small manageable valuable in game business.

Is there going to be in-game consumable commodities? For example: To make iron or steel, you need quantities of coal to generate the heat necessary. Coal itself is not valuable, but is necessary for the process, which adds another commodity to the market. In addition, this commodity would only be to the harvest, and process stage, with no crafting necessary. (Perhaps even no processing.)

I am somewhat concerned about harvesting caravans. From what I have read, Pathfinder will be an open PvP game. My experience is that some people love to harass lower level players because they are easy targets. A level 30 character hanging out to kill a level 15 party, just because they can. With caravans, this gives that level 30 character significant monetary gain from that practice, with little to no risk to themselves. A couple of suggestions would be, that the common folk who drive the wagons would run at the first sign of battle. This would mean that the L30 character could only get away with the one wagon they could drive. If caravans often had multiple wagons, then that would be less of an impact financially. Also, that should be considered a criminal act, once the defeated return to the local town, they could notify the local magistrate. The local magistrate could close the town to the player. Meaning that character will have to drive their stolen goods to a town farther away. Another suggestion is lawlessness for a given region should have an impact on the number and quality of the common folk available. This makes it more valuable for the mayor of the town to keep the surrounding area free from this sort of thing. (I think the plan is to have players build towns, so the leader would be an actual player.) The merchant might only be a L15, but the person in charge of the area might be higher level, or he might extort money from the merchants to hire higher level players to keep the roads clear.

Are there going to be a means for merchants to pull together to create a common caravan? Some way of saying, we are taking a caravan from city A to city B, caravan leaves at 4:00pm EST. Then other merchants could add to the caravan and pay a fee, and the caravan master could afford to hire true muscle to protect the caravan. This type of announcement should not be made to the general message boards, but to the processors and crafters in the town.

What about ships? I realize wagon trains will be the most common method, but ships were a main method of transportation. This could bring a new skill set, sailor. It could also bring a new dynamic to the game. This also leads to the next logical question, will there be air ships?