Cavalier / Paladin Multiclass

[setzer9999]

There have been some other threads on this, but none answered the question to complete satisfaction and were old so I didn't want to necro them. I'm aware this is a long post, but I am very confused and no amount of researching it myself has yielded a final verdict.

A Cavalier 1/Paladin 5 takes divine bond as a mount. According to most interpretations I've read (and I agree with), that mount should "stack" with the level of Cavalier. What does this stacking mean? Obviously it at the very least means that the mount's level is equal to the character level, not the class level of just one of their classes.

However, this leaves some points unexplained. The mount for the Cavalier gets a bonus feat for Light Armor Proficiency. The Paladin mount gets Int 6, and magical beast and spell resistance bonuses at level 11. Does the mount get to keep the bonus feat in addition to the Int, magical beast, and SR bonuses, or does the player have to choose which ones they get? Note that the player is not happy about the idea of getting a "new" mount, as there is strong emotional attachment to the initial mount from levels 1-6... so the idea put forward is that the initial mount is "upgraded" by being divinely transfigured when it becomes a divine bond, but I just don't know if that's how the rules intend it.

Even more confusing are some of the other abilities granted by these features. These two refer to what the character can do, instead of what the mount itself can do. A Cavalier takes no armor check or Ride penalties riding his mount. A paladin can summon his mount. Does it make sense that because the Cavalier now is riding a different mount that he loses a skill he has himself and now takes Ride and AC penalties because of leveling up and taking a new feature? I guess the summoning one makes more sense if you are stating that the ability to summon the mount is because it is the divine bond, but it says the "Paladin has the ability to summon the mount", not that the "mount has the ability to be summoned".

Its all very confusing, and it seems unfair to remove bonuses instead of stacking them. After all, this character is forgoing a level of Paladin specifically for the purpose of being a mount-centric character from level 1. Its also not munchkinism, I assure you, its not for power gaming, this player really just wanted badly to have their cat a part of their game, but wanted to be a paladin too... so it's a halfling riding a cheetah because the player likes it, not for some metagaming reason...

If the features don't stack, then starting at level 6 this character becomes somewhat penalized compared to their power from levels 1-5. It's all pretty unclear to me.

[Morgen]

Some amount of and waving might be in order just to get all the mechanics to play out properly. I could see how this could get confusing.

Your effective druid level would be 6, because your levels of cavalier and paladin stack thanks to the wording of the druid animal companion ability.

You'd effectively had a 6th level druid animal companion horse (or pony, or whatever) with the special abilities of a paladin mount which was proficient with light armour (which only matters for non-masterwork studded leather and chain shirt barding, or masterwork chain shirt barding anyway). It is your mount for both classes so you don't take an armour check penalty while riding it, you can summon it X number of times per day to your side from wherever it is hanging out, and if it dies you are going to really be sad for a month.

The other alternative is you have 2 horses, so I'm sure your GM will happily just let it advance a bit. That's the easiest solution as the bonuses the horse gets aren't a big deal. Int 6 isn't a bid deal, it still doesn't have hands or the ability to speak even if you gave it ranks in linguistics. It'd be able to be taught 15 tricks, but then there are only 13 to teach it so meh on that.

[BltzKrg242]

I'm with Morgen first choice. you'd get a single mount with the capabilities of all pertinent class level abilities.

[Knight Magenta]

Does a mount with int 6 even learn tricks? At int 6 it's as smarter than some humanoid races...

[BltzKrg242]

Still an animal tho so you have to use Handle Animal and tricks to get it to do stuff.

[Lopke]

With an Int of 6, I would argue Handle Animal no longer applies to a paladin's special mount.

Diplomacy is called for now. You are dealing with a consciousness that has opinions of its own, simple though they may be.

Cheers

[Tom S 820]

Any thing with INT 4 or higher dose not need Handle animal.

Also I would stay with Morgen first chose.

[ShadowcatX]

By RAW the options do not stack. Such a character would have two mounts, 1 from cavalier, and the other from paladin. Each mount would follow their own rules.

If your DM allows them to stack your best bet is to ask him how they should work.

Edit: I was entirely wrong here. Morgen seems to be correct. My apologies.

[SirGeshko]

Keep in mind that until the PC reaches Paladin 5, his mount will function as a Cavalier 1, as the Paladin doesn't gain that class feature (and therefore his levels won't stack) until 5th level, at which time it bumps to full power.

Also, you'd need to take the more restrictive of the two class features; If the mount died, you wouldn't get to wait a week like a cavalier, you'd have to wait a month or a level, taking a -1 the entire time, like a Paladin.

[setzer9999]

Thanks for discussing it folks. I still am not 100% sure how the devs would rule it or how it would go for PFS, but for the home game at the very least, it seems the RAW is close enough if not all the way there to say that all features stack, not just the levels

I hadn't thought of the fact that the mount wouldn't level up until character level 6 with this build though... or that it should take the worse of the penalties. Of course with this, the risk of the mount dying very easily would be very great.

This would virtually require taking the "Boon Companion" feat to offset that, but then at character level 6, that feat would become worthless... however, I think the cost of 1 level of your main class, and 1 feat is OK to get such a good AC/mount as one with all the features of both Cavalier and Paladin and have it though the early levels anyway which do last quite a while in their own right.

Thanks all!

[deuxhero]

Any reason you can't just take the Cavalier level 5th? The multiclass restrictions on Paladin are gone in PF.

[proftobe]

I thought once an animal companion was over 5 int it couldn't be an animal companion anymore.

[blackbloodtroll]

proftobe wrote:

I thought once an animal companion was over 5 int it couldn't be an animal companion anymore.

Not true. If you cast Awaken on a animal companion though, it stops being a companion.

[8 Red Wizards]

Under Druid animal companion it's pretty obvious that animal companion types stack with each other, and since both cavalier and paladin mounts use Druid animal companion table when they level up than they DO stack. Just read page 51 under Animal Companions Class level, page 63 under the Divine Bond mount option telling you this mount functions as an animal companion using the druids effective level, and also page 33 APG Cavalier Mount that functions as a Druids animal companion equal to his effective druid levels

Since Page 51 says animal companion levels stack with different classes that offer it than yes the Paladin and Cavalier stack without a doubt.

[Starglim]

The abilities that the mount gains at paladin levels 11 and 15, as opposed to those from the druid's animal companion progression, should go by the character's actual paladin level and not effective druid level. The standard cavalier doesn't have any equivalent abilities that I can see, but a cavalier archetype that does grant the mount level-dependent abilities or modifications (such as Beast Rider) would likewise progress by cavalier level, not effective druid level.

[8 Red Wizards]

Starglim wrote:

The abilities that the mount gains at paladin levels 11 and 15, as opposed to those from the druid's animal companion progression, should go by the character's actual paladin level and not effective druid level. The standard cavalier doesn't have any equivalent abilities that I can see, but a cavalier archetype that does grant the mount level-dependent abilities or modifications (such as Beast Rider) would likewise progress by cavalier level, not effective druid level.

well yea those are paladin abilities I thought we were just talking about animal companion progression.

[Phasics]

What about Druid and Cavalier ?

1 level druid dip for Roc animal companion then cavalier to have a flying mount you would otherwise not be able to take ?

[Arkhios]

8 Red Wizards wrote:

Under Druid animal companion it's pretty obvious that animal companion types stack with each other, and since both cavalier and paladin mounts use Druid animal companion table when they level up than they DO stack. Just read page 51 under Animal Companions Class level, page 63 under the Divine Bond mount option telling you this mount functions as an animal companion using the druids effective level, and also page 33 APG Cavalier Mount that functions as a Druids animal companion equal to his effective druid levels

Since Page 51 says animal companion levels stack with different classes that offer it than yes the Paladin and Cavalier stack without a doubt.

8 Red Wizards wrote:

Starglim wrote:

The abilities that the mount gains at paladin levels 11 and 15, as opposed to those from the druid's animal companion progression, should go by the character's actual paladin level and not effective druid level. The standard cavalier doesn't have any equivalent abilities that I can see, but a cavalier archetype that does grant the mount level-dependent abilities or modifications (such as Beast Rider) would likewise progress by cavalier level, not effective druid level.

well yea those are paladin abilities I thought we were just talking about animal companion progression.

Apologizes for a slight necro, but it's "only" about a year old :P

Anyways, according to what 8 Red Wizards and Starglim pointed out, I, myself at least, am confirmed that paladin and cavalier levels stack for the effective druid level, which in turn means that a Beast Rider 4/Paladin 5, would indeed have a mount as a level 9 druid companion.
I agree with the notation that class specific features are class level dependant, so, a Beast Rider couldn't have, let's say, a tiger until the very least at 4th level (7th level if the rider is medium, ofcourse - which wouldn't occur until paladin gains divine bond at level 5 and character level 9, unless you're willing to take Boon Companion feat, then you would obviously gain the 7th level big cat advancement.) Likewise, the paladin divine bond advancement at PALADIN level 11, wouldn't occur until the character gained 11th level of paladin.

But nothing in the rules seems to stand against having a 6th level character with mount equivalent to 6th level druid's animal companion, WITH both the Beast Rider's wider spectrum of mounts-list, cavalier's armor check penalty negating ability with his mount, and paladin's mount's intelligence 6.

Phasics wrote:

What about Druid and Cavalier ?

1 level druid dip for Roc animal companion then cavalier to have a flying mount you would otherwise not be able to take ?

With the same interpretation as above, a druid, multiclassing to a cavalier, could indeed have a roc mount.

[Starglim]

Arkhios wrote:

Phasics wrote:

What about Druid and Cavalier ?

1 level druid dip for Roc animal companion then cavalier to have a flying mount you would otherwise not be able to take ?

With the same interpretation as above, a druid, multiclassing to a cavalier, could indeed have a roc mount.

I think now that the GM must allow a roc as a cavalier mount for this to work, from:

APG wrote:

The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select .. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.

The list of mounts received by character size might be interpreted as just that, a default and not a restriction, if it weren't for the last sentence. This is explicitly the case for PFS.