White Haired Witch / Monk "Is Hair considered an Unarmed attack?"

[8 Red Wizards]

White Haired Witches hair does 1d4 points of damage and is a natural attack, but if you took monk level with it and you were a level 2 White Haired Witch/ level 4 monk would your hair do 1d8 points of damage and could you perform flurry of blows with your hair?

I kinda think yea it's a natural attack kinda similar to hands in this case.

I'm thinking about making a White Haired Witch 8/Monk 3/Assassin 9

[Blayde MacRonan]

You'd have to take the Feral Combat Training feat to get the hair flurry and the Monastic Legacy feat to get the improved unarmed damage.

[blackbloodtroll]

No, but feral combat training will fix that.

[8 Red Wizards]

I'm going to make my White Witch as melee as possible

[blackbloodtroll]

You know the prehensile hair hex is superior in every way to the white haired witches abilities?

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Except it is a secondary natural attack that only lasts a limited amount of time per day & doesn't get the free Combat Maneuver actions with a successful attack.

[blackbloodtroll]

Post errata, you are right.

[blackbloodtroll]

Weapon finesse is a must for this build, as the hair attack still uses strength for attack rolls.

[8 Red Wizards]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Weapon finesse is a must for this build, as the hair attack still uses strength for attack rolls.

it uses it's intelligence in place of strength rolls

[blackbloodtroll]

8 Red Wizards wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Weapon finesse is a must for this build, as the hair attack still uses strength for attack rolls.

it uses it's intelligence in place of strength rolls

Only for damage. Read carefully.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Actually, that sounds like something that needs errata'd as well, since it states later in the description that it uses Intelligence instead of Strength for CMB with the Hair.

[8 Red Wizards]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

8 Red Wizards wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Weapon finesse is a must for this build, as the hair attack still uses strength for attack rolls.

it uses it's intelligence in place of strength rolls

Only for damage. Read carefully.

As the White Haired Witch says "using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check." You use your combat maneuver bonus for the attack roll when making said check and combat maneuver defense.

Read everything before you say anything and if you are going to say that's only to combat maneuver checks than what do you think you use your hair for in this class.

[blackbloodtroll]

I didn't say it was RAI, but it is RAW.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

& it wouldn't be the first time the rules have said one modifier for attack and a different modifier for damage. Hence my indication that it would do well to be errata'd.

[8 Red Wizards]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I didn't say it was RAI, but it is RAW.

This is actually RAW not RAI which I'm a little iffy now what your understanding of what RAI means if you call the White Haired Witch abilities RAI.

ok you still didn't read it so here it is

At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet.

this is what you are reading and you didn't move past this.

boldThe hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier.bold

If you continued reading

In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action* without provoking an attack of opportunity, boldusing her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check.bold When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

so you get to use your Intel mod to damage, but you also get to use your intel mod to your CMB & CMD. Which is because they are aware the witch isn't going to have a high str so they make it up by letting them use intel, but you should read everything first.

[blackbloodtroll]

I did.
Remember, just because something modifies CMB, doesn't mean it modify all attack rolls.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

8 Red Wizards wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I didn't say it was RAI, but it is RAW.

This is actually RAW not RAI which I'm a little iffy now what your understanding of what RAI means if you call the White Haired Witch abilities RAI.

ok you still didn't read it so here it is

At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet.

this is what you are reading and you didn't move past this.

boldThe hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier.bold

If you continued reading

In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action* without provoking an attack of opportunity, boldusing her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check.bold When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

so you get to use your Intel mod to damage, but you also get to use your intel mod to your CMB & CMD. Which is because they are aware the witch isn't going to have a high str so they make it up by letting them use intel, but you should read everything first.

Yeah, you should read the DEV's errata on the white haired witches abilities. They changed the Grab (and all the rest of those abilities) to a Swift action to use instead of a free.

Also the hair will be flagged as a secondary attack so you only get to add HALF your Int bonus to damage if you mix it in with your flurry (or just use it at any time you throw a punch).

Makes it far less useful for a melee damage build but great for a maneuver master.

[blackbloodtroll]

A White-haired Witch + Feral combat training + Maneuver Master seems to be a valid build.

[8 Red Wizards]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Yeah, you should read the DEV's errata on the white haired witches abilities. They changed the Grab (and all the rest of those abilities) to a Swift action to use instead of a free.
Also the hair will be flagged as a secondary attack so you only get to add HALF your Int bonus to damage if you mix it in with your flurry (or just use it at any time you throw a punch).

Makes it far less useful for a melee damage build but great for a maneuver master.

The action the ability happens in isn't in question, when you make a Trip or grapple attempt so that's not even worth bringing up that it's a swift action you use the CMB as the attack roll the intel modifies the attack roll of the CMB for the Trip and grapple attempt. I would suggest both of you read pg 198 under combat maneuvers before you return to this post. While I appricate you finding and telling me about the "Feral combat training" I am losing some respect, because you don't seem to understand how CMB works.

[blackbloodtroll]

Feral Combat Training.
What about CMB are we all missing by the way?

[J3Carlisle]

Watch out 8 Red Wizards is angry boys, he get snippy when he is angry.

In other words, dude calm down, its just a game.

[GrenMeera]

8 Red Wizards wrote:

The action the ability happens in isn't in question, when you make a Trip or grapple attempt so that's not even worth bringing up that it's a swift action you use the CMB as the attack roll the intel modifies the attack roll of the CMB for the Trip and grapple attempt. I would suggest both of you read pg 198 under combat maneuvers before you return to this post. While I appricate you finding and telling me about the "Feral combat training" I am losing some respect, because you don't seem to understand how CMB works.

This is all fine and good if you're simply using a CMB action. However, similarly to the Grab special ability, the hair gets this free (or errata swift) action to CMB AFTER you have already successfully hit.

RAW wrote:

In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action* without provoking an attack of opportunity...

The attack goes as follows:

1) Make an attack action with the hair. It is calculated with Base Attack Bonus + Strength modifier (If I'm not mistaken, this is what blackbloodtroll was trying to tell you).

2) Roll your damage on a successful hit. This is 1d4 + Intelligence modifier.

3) If you successfully hit the foe, you may proceed into a CMB as a free (errata swift) action. This is calculated as Base Attack Bonus + Intelligence modifier.

[8 Red Wizards]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I did.

Remember, just because something modifies CMB, doesn't mean it modify all attack rolls.

Lets use white haired witch for example you use your Base Attack Bonus, primary stat (intelligence, in this case), any feats (weapon focus), spells (fox's cunning) and magical bonus's (amulet of natural attacks +2) are added to the CMB (trip, grapple and any others) the CMB is considered an attack roll against your CMD.

and this post topic kinda makes me think you need to revisit combat maneuver chapter, because if it modifies the white haired witch's attack roll it modifies the white haired witches CMB with that attack form.

GrenMeera wrote:

In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action* without provoking an attack of opportunity...

The attack goes as follows:

1) Make an attack action with the hair. It is calculated with Base Attack Bonus + Strength modifier (If I'm not mistaken, this is what blackbloodtroll was trying to tell you).

2) Roll your damage on a successful hit. This is 1d4 + Intelligence modifier.

3) If you successfully hit the foe, you may proceed into a CMB as a free (errata swift) action. This is calculated as Base Attack Bonus + Intelligence modifier.

Of course you have to make your attack roll first, because you have to hit before you can roll the CMB to grapple or trip

[GrenMeera]

8 Red Wizards wrote:

Of course you have to make your attack roll first, because you have to hit before you can roll the CMB to grapple or trip

Yeah, that's all blackbloodtroll was trying to tell you. He wasn't wrong or misunderstanding the rules, you two were simply stuck in a misunderstanding of topic.

Nobody needs to re-read the CMB rules since everybody was correct in how they said it worked.

[8 Red Wizards]

I am getting annoyed, because people are talking about the attack roll, and I don't even care about the attack roll. So lets just pretend for the rest of this discussion that the attack roll doesn't exist or it just always succeeds.

[GrenMeera]

Well, the points being made about the attack roll were advice for Weapon Finesse. Simply free advice that was misunderstood.

So if you're not taking any additional advice, is it safe to assume that the Feral Combat Training feat has answered your question, or do you have any more questions/concerns about this idea that we could help you with?

[Mathwei ap Niall]

8 Red Wizards wrote:

I am getting annoyed, because people are talking about the attack roll, and I don't even care about the attack roll. So lets just pretend for the rest of this discussion that the attack roll doesn't exist or it just always succeeds.

People are talking about the attack roll because it's IMPORTANT. You don't get to use your Int bonus on the attack roll you have to use your actual strength bonus.

This makes it a LOT harder to succeed on the hit. If you don't succeed on the hit you don't get to start the grapple or trip or anything.

Now if you just want to make a standard grapple check with your hair then yes the attack roll is less important but since you are not a full bab class and can't wear any armor AND you take a huge penalty to your Dex bonus it makes it that much harder to start or maintain that grapple.

[8 Red Wizards]

I don't need advice for my attack roll I already put an amazing attack roll together. I'm more interested in making my Hair doing more damage, flurrying with my hair, and maybe doing some other cool stuff with my hair.

[blackbloodtroll]

The Kirin Style feats seem good for build too.

Still curious what you are so mad about 8 Red Wizards.

[8 Red Wizards]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

The Kirin Style feats seem good for build too.

Still curious what you are so mad about 8 Red Wizards.

at first I was upset that because there wasn't an understand to CMB, and so now I'm trying to make sure I don't get anymore attack roll advice. I'm looking combat tactics.

[blackbloodtroll]

That was tactics advice.
Weapon finesse is also a prerequisite for Piranha Strike, a feat you can use to pump damage.

You need to try to a bit more polite, if you want help.

[8 Red Wizards]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

That was tactics advice.

Weapon finesse is also a prerequisite for Piranha Strike, a feat you can use to pump damage.

You need to try to a bit more polite, if you want help.

I'm sorry scroll up count the posts and all that time was wasting. Also saying you should look at Piranha Strike would of been a better tactics suggestion, and that was a good suggestion.

[blackbloodtroll]

I am unsure if you are trying to thank me, or belittle me.

Text has a hard time conveying emotion.

[GrenMeera]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am unsure if you are trying to thank me, or belittle me.

Can't it be both?

8 Red Wizards wrote:

at first I was upset that because there wasn't an understand to CMB, and so now I'm trying to make sure I don't get anymore attack roll advice.

8 Red Wizards wrote:

I'm sorry scroll up count the posts and all that time was wasting.

Everybody understood CMB, it was all good advice and therefore nobody's time was wasted.

Every post of yours involves you being quite negative and for no reason. You were asked to be more polite and to calm down and your apology was half an insult.

Please realize that the forums here are full of very good people who offer FANTASTIC advice and be respectful. I've seen many times that blackbloodtroll offers great suggestions in other threads as well, so he knows what he's talking about. It would suck to insult him and lose a valuable resource.

[GrenMeera]

Me on the other hand? I never have any idea what I'm talking about.

^.^

[8 Red Wizards]

the Piranha strike was a very helpful suggestion, and I'm considering the possibility of fitting it in. Should be easy enough with monk levels.

[blackbloodtroll]

GrenMeera wrote:

Me on the other hand? I never have any idea what I'm talking about.

^.^

I have to admit, there are times I have no idea what I am talking about either.

I do make it a habit of letting people know when doing so.

[8 Red Wizards]

I just noticed it does a -1 on combat man.s so I probably won't be using that Piranha strike I had to drop power attack for the same reason.

[pH unbalanced]

GrenMeera wrote:

1) Make an attack action with the hair. It is calculated with Base Attack Bonus + Strength modifier (If I'm not mistaken, this is what blackbloodtroll was trying to tell you).

Huh. That's interesting.

I can see where you get that from the White-Hair Witch rules, but I have to think that the intention was to use Int for the Str modifier as the attack modifier. I get that from the fact that the Prehensile Hair Hex uses Int for Str in a blanket fashion, and this is supposed to be a more martial form of that. I can't believe that WHW wouldn't get an Int modifier to attack rolls, when Prehensile Hair does.

[8 Red Wizards]

Now does it still take a standard action to maintain the grapple or can you still cast or attack with your hands while your hair is holding on to the subject.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

There are a number of differences between the Prehensile Hair Hex and the White Hair class feature. This is why I have repeatedly mentioned checking the errata. Given that there are several instances throughout the game where one modifier is used for the attack modifier & another is used for damage, assuming the same modifier is used when it isn't explicitly stated is dangerous. Yes, it would seem to make sense to do so (& I would certainly prefer it because otherwise my WHW concept goes right out the window), but right now, without errata, that falls under GM House-rule territory.

[8 Red Wizards]

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

There are a number of differences between the Prehensile Hair Hex and the White Hair class feature. This is why I have repeatedly mentioned checking the errata. Given that there are several instances throughout the game where one modifier is used for the attack modifier & another is used for damage, assuming the same modifier is used when it isn't explicitly stated is dangerous. Yes, it would seem to make sense to do so (& I would certainly prefer it because otherwise my WHW concept goes right out the window), but right now, without errata, that falls under GM House-rule territory.

I haven't been able to find an errata yet, and than everything after that I'm just glazing over. Back to my question, because I don't know if you answered it anywhere in that post, but does it still take a standard action to maintain the grapple.

Edit: I've already said this, but I don't care about the attack modifier. I haven't cared about the attack modifier since the beginning of this, and I won't care about the attack modifier by the end of this. So please everyone stop talking about the attack modifier. My Group doesn't do point buy in, because we think it's dumb. So from this point on my White Witch's stats are

White Witch Stat's
level 1
str 20
dex 20
con 20
int 20
wis 20
cha 20
my base attack is +40
So this should establish I don't have a problem hitting.

And I'm getting annoyed, because I think to get any help that I might need I might have to wait a few days and repost this link brand new.

My restated question
1) Looking to increase my Hair's natural attack damage

2) Decent Versatility Feats and interesting combo's

3) Improving my Familiar feats and magical items (I've already got afew good suggestions above for this one)

4) If I have to use a standard action to maintain my grapple or if I can still cast spells since my hands are free?

[blackbloodtroll]

You are coming off as condescending.
I am not sure if that is intentional, but I thought you should know.

[8 Red Wizards]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You are coming off as condescending.

I am not sure if that is intentional, but I thought you should know.

Of course I'm coming off Condescending I know people are trying to help me, but that doesn't change they are answering a question I don't need help with instead of helping me with the questions I need help with. So far I'm thinking I'll have to put this off a week, and tell everyone my DM is letting me use my Intelligence to my attack roll. I'm still in the same place I was in when I made this post.

[pH unbalanced]

8 Red Wizards wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You are coming off as condescending.

I am not sure if that is intentional, but I thought you should know.

Of course I'm coming off Condescending I know people are trying to help me, but that doesn't change they are answering a question I don't need help with instead of helping me with the questions I need help with. So far I'm thinking I'll have to put this off a week, and tell everyone my DM is letting me use my Intelligence to my attack roll. I'm still in the same place I was in when I made this post.

For what you want, you might consider posting this in the 'Advice' section. That's where you'll get advice for your build.

Since this is posted in the 'Rules Questions' section, the discussion has been more about the specific rules for the WHW. *You* may not care about what stat affects the attack bonus, but that was not a ruling I had ever heard before, so I found it interesting.

[blackbloodtroll]

8 Red Wizards wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You are coming off as condescending.

I am not sure if that is intentional, but I thought you should know.

Of course I'm coming off Condescending I know people are trying to help me, but that doesn't change they are answering a question I don't need help with instead of helping me with the questions I need help with. So far I'm thinking I'll have to put this off a week, and tell everyone my DM is letting me use my Intelligence to my attack roll. I'm still in the same place I was in when I made this post.

Being rude, condescending and belittling posters is literally against forum rules.

You will not get any advice this way. Just flagged posts, angry responses and a locked thread.
This should also be moved to the "Advice" board.

[GrenMeera]

8 Red Wizards wrote:

My restated question

1) Looking to increase my Hair's natural attack damage

2) Decent Versatility Feats and interesting combo's

3) Improving my Familiar feats and magical items (I've already got afew good suggestions above for this one)

4) If I have to use a standard action to maintain my grapple or if I can still cast spells since my hands are free?

This is literally the first time you've asked any question or directed your advice to any topics beyond the first post, which was answered by Feral Combat Training.

I'd answer some of these, but after asking you politely to please refrain from rudeness, you continued.

For some reason, I feel disinclined to offer you any additional advice at this moment. Maybe you'll figure out why.