|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The second book of KingMaker has some information on Erastil that some may find objectionable. I know I do, and I anticipate that some of my players will as well. After giving it a lot of thought, I've decided to make a few small changes.
Here is the section from the book:
Old Deadeye is set in his ways and doesn’t take well to those who challenge his opinions or upset how things work. He believes the strength of a man’s will makes him the center of a household, and while women can be strong, they should defer to and support their husbands, as their role is to look after the house and raise strong children (consequently, there are few female priests in his church). Independent-minded women, he believes, can be disruptive to communities, and it is best to marry them off quickly so their duties as wife and mother command their attention. Children should honor their parents and know when it is time to work or time to play. He dislikes the chaos and trouble that adventurers bring, and while they may have their uses when monsters come sniffing about, it is best if adventurers take care of the problem quickly, receive a meal and a place to sleep, then move on before their wanderlust catches on in otherwise good families. His androcentric beliefs are unusual given his religion’s intermediate role between the Green Faith (which is largely egalitarian) and modern faiths (which have a mix of male and female deities).
I personally find it hard to accept that any deity (or at least a good one) would be so close-minded. I also think that, even in a world where priests can commune with their deities, it is difficult for mortals to know and understand the mind of a god. The above, therefore, is more an interpretation of Erastil's doctrine as opposed to words from the god's mouth. It represents the beliefs of a very traditional and conservative tradition within the church. However, much like real world religions, not everyone of a particular religion thinks and believes the same way.
So here's my spin on what Erastil stands for. He is a deity of family. He looks at it all from a more biological perspective. Ultimately, his desire is for every person, whether male or female, to eventually marry and raise a family. Once a couple does this, their first priority should be to the family. As long as the children's needs are met, it's really not worth the god's time to concern himself with what roles the husband and wife each play. What is most important is that the couple work together as a team to protect the family and provide for the family's needs.
Erastil is not a fan of adventurers, but this is as much directed at men as women. The question is not one of gender, but rather that one should be "settling down" and raising a family by a certain point in one's life. Adventuring when young is fine, but eventually the time comes to "grow up". Although most of Erastil's clergy does marry, the god does acknowledge that some may have to forego marriage (at least temporarily) in order to provide for the safety and well-being of the community. In that vein it is not uncommon for priests and priestesses of Erastil to serve their communities by adventuring, protecting, etc. Rather than being seen as shirking one's duties to raise a family, this is seen by Erastil as a sacrifice made by an individual to benefit the community.
Because of all this, there are more female clerics than stated above. The selection from the book represent the view point of the most conservative elements in the church, but it is changing. It is due to this change--the more enlightened attitudes of recent generations, the more liberal elements--that female clerics are becoming more common in recent generations. This all has a snowball effect--a more liberal attitude leads to more female clerics, more female clerics leads to a yet more liberal attitude.
Currently, it has gotten to the point where the conservative element has become a minority and is seen as a group of narrow-minded people stuck in the past by the bulk of the followers of Erastil. As in the real world, though, the holders of power do not give it up easily, even when the majority of people disagree with them.
A cleric of Erastil does not have to worry about falling out of favor with the god for adventuring (or not having kids) as long as she's serving others so that they may raise their families in peace. She may, however, sometimes come into conflict with the more conservative elements. This can be a great opportunity for roleplay as she would be a champion for the more open-minded people who are tired of such rigid and outdated philosophies.
Something to note also is that Erastil also says that a errant young man should be grounded by a strong woman.
I kind of get a "husband is the head of the house hold but the wife is the neck that turns the head" vibe at times and it's more about the traditional roles that support family and community. Considering that can vary from local to local the farther you go the more variance you'll see.
Why would he be considered close-minded? This is not the 21st century where luxuries and technologies are common. Life was hard for the common folk. Women and young men needed to get wed early, form families, get children, and then wed them off. Else a population would just die out. ESPECIALLY in frontier and rural regions, which is where Erastil is most common to be worshipped.
Why should he be egalitarian? He is good god yes, because he values life, protects innocence, helps people. Good does not have to mean he or his church can not have preconceived notions on gender. In their eyes, it's what is necessary for a family, for life to grow out of a place, where women AND men have their place in life. And lets not even begin to talk about the dangers of the world which gives even a bigger sense of urgency into forming strong communities.
I find his more conservative and in my opinion, realistic view on medieval life to be somewhat refreshing. They don't apply everywhere, in the magic-aided society of the more urban areas, life is easier and then people don't hold to as conservative values.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
From the linked page
I actually love that Erastil is backwards-minded old dolt who believes that every woman should just sit back and play the mother/wife routine.That's not entirely Erastil's perspective. A very strong-willed man can "tame" a strong-willed woman... but who's to say that once she's "tamed" she's not going to continue adventuring, especially if her husband is also an adventurer? They'd be a true "power couple."
These couples don't have to totally reject social norms. President John Adams and his wife Abigail were very close friends and she was his confidant and advisor in a world where men had all the power and women wore seven layers of clothing. Yet Abigail's advice to John was essential in his political work in the early years in the United States.
But in a world where fierce monsters lurk beyond the borders of the farmstead, even a "traditional" woman can't be faulted for defending her life and that of her children, just as the she-wolf and she-bear are more dangerous than the lone male.
And if a poor, independent-minded female worshiper of Erastil went adventuring to acquire wealth for herself so she wouldn't be married off just to escape poverty, is that wrong? No. Is she wrong if she's looking to make the world safer for the children she wants to have some day? No. Is she wrong if she doesn't want to be married, but believes in family and the protection of children? No. Is she wrong if she wants to travel so she can find a more suitable husband, rather than the bumpkins in her home village? No.
Erastil isn't saying women are weak.
Erastil isn't saying women are inferior.He is saying that a woman's role is to be wife and mother... just as a man's role is to be husband and father. Yet he's not insisting that everyone get married at the start of puberty and start cranking out children just because they can.
If his attitudes about women are sexist, then so are his attitudes about men. Erastil would consider me (an unmarried, almost-40, childfree man with no land) very "unmanly." If I lived in a world where Erastil was real, would that prevent me from praying to him for prosperity in my farming or hunting? No. Compared to the gods, we are all inferior and inadequate.
I was actually going to post something similar, but this sums it up better.
Also, I believe that Erastil would find spousal abuse wrong and very evil. A real man doesn't beat a woman, nor does he force them to do anything. Of course, a woman nagging and brow beating her husband would also be wrong. He would teach that a man is the head, and the woman is to follow and support him, but a man isn't to abuse that power, nor is he to ignore her council, requests, or needs.
I tend to agree. Erastil has pretty strong views on sex roles, yes, but that doesn't mean he's crazy-stupid-backwards-evil. I'm guessing that there are quite a lot of female clerics of Erastil out there, but they just don't make a visible stir. Someone is doing all the domestic tasks, which are not unimportant.
It requires a different mindset to roleplay, admittedly. And it has strong requirements on both sexes.
It's just that most PCs don't like having requirements on their character. Most of Erastil's servants don't go adventuring, after all. (There are exceptions...)
|
Possibly relevant to the OP's interests: IIRC Seeker of Secrets has a short blurb on a female cleric of Erastil who has been branded as a bit of a heretic for her belief that a more matriarchal-friendly structure existed in that particular faith at one point, and she's seeking out evidence to back this up.
If I recall correctly, she was still getting spells.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
He's close minded and sexist, but that doesn't make him evil. It makes him lawful stupid to some extent.
Another idea is to play him like Michael Carpenter from the dresden file: someone whose religion strongly frowns on the views and actions of his friends, but quietly goes along, only adding in his 2 cp every now and again in the way of someone genuinely concerned for their wellbeing, only getting really pushy if lives are at stake...
|
There's also a strong Lawful = Patriarchal / Chaotic = Matriarchal vibe going on in Golarion's cosmology, with the very mysoginstic Devils contrasted by the female dominated Demons and other such things. It's an interesting element that I think adds something to the cosmology (and, as Iomedae and Cayden Cailean demonstrate, is perhaps taken more seriously by the Evil saide of things than the Good...which makes some sense).
I like that particular metaphysical quirk, and like Erastil as the most Good version of that particular concept possible (note: this doesn't mean I endorse Erastil's viewpoint...just that, say, Asmodeus's is a whole lot worse, and that I think him being sexist adds to the setting).
|
|
Erastil might be old-fashioned but he isn't a bad guy. He just prefers women to stay home and raise children, and men to work to support their family. He doesn't want either gender out adventuring and he wouldn't get mad at a woman who defends her home from bandits or monsters if she's the most capable of doing so.
He's a god with texture, and while I personally don't agree with his views as a liberal feminist, but as a LG god in a fantasy world he adds a bit of conflict and a different perspective and that I do appreciate. Because it leads to good stories!
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's also a strong Lawful = Patriarchal / Chaotic = Matriarchal vibe going on in Golarion's cosmology, with the very mysoginstic Devils contrasted by the female dominated Demons and other such things.
There's an interesting little bit in the secone Book of the Damned volume about when Desna whacked the (female) Demon Lord Aolar, breaking numerous divine laws to do so.
The gods listed as coming to her defense during the fallout afterwards were all female: Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Calistria. Don't know if there's anything there to read anything into or not, but it's there.
|
|
Clerics may blunt the death rate a bit, but as shown in numerous discussions about Crimson Throne, there's not enough divine magic around (nor is it cheap enough for most) to deal with disease. Or to heal every child that has an accident.
This is simply untrue.
CotCT was specifically dealing with a plague scenario, where people were getting infected faster than they could be healed and could be re-infected. This is simply not true of most of the childhood diseases that resulted in hideous infant mortality rates, and certainly not true of accidents of any sort. One Cleric (or Adept) capable of Removing Disease is more than sufficient for a community of some size, and such individuals are (at only 5th level) not uncommon.
Nor is a Priest of any Good god going to charge an exorbitant fee for such things. He'll charge people who can afford it (like adventurers) but not those who cannot, like a poor peasant whose child is dying.
Now, I do agree with your sentiment somewhat in terms of how Erastil views things (and I certainly don't deny the dangers of Goblin-raids and such), especially since his attitudes date back to when humanity was less advanced technologically and in even more danger...but it's not nearly as bleak a scenario as you're painting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think Erastil is sexist, it's more of a case of your views being too tainted by our living conditions.
What is life like? Hard, harsh, deadly. In Europe at this tech level children that are born had a 50% chance to live to adulthood. That's in an established country with working government. Without the threat of monsters, insane mages, demons, and other evil.
Clerics may blunt the death rate a bit, but as shown in numerous discussions about Crimson Throne, there's not enough divine magic around (nor is it cheap enough for most) to deal with disease. Or to heal every child that has an accident.
That means that everyone that can has to marry and have six children just to maintain the population level. In regions like the stolen lands that might not even be close to enough. Have less and your family may die out, there won't be anyone there to take care of you when you're too old to work.
Honestly, I wonder how the worshipers of some of the good gods survive in the harsh world. Many probably die in poverty.
So...how does that translate to "men should always be the head of the household"? Sure, I'd totally understand him being all for marriage and reproduction and strongly encouraging that, it's when he basically says "...and the men should hold the power!" that he becomes sexist.
And that's why I despise him, and even my good characters would rather see his churches burn that stop the goblins (contain them to keep from spreading, sure, but burn that cancerous faith out, you glorious green bastards!").
|
|
And that's why I despise him, and even my good characters would rather see his churches burn that stop the goblins (contain them to keep from spreading, sure, but burn that cancerous faith out, you glorious green bastards!").
Wow. Really?
I mean, I'm actually a pretty hardcore feminist...but this seems pretty extreme. Aside from the sexism, Erastil's a pretty good guy (helps the helpless, heals the sick, provides for the hungry, etc.), and many of his priests and such aren't even sexist.
It's not like he's gonna force anyone to abide by his particular rules. That's not how LG works.
And that's why I despise him, and even my good characters would rather see his churches burn that stop the goblins (contain them to keep from spreading, sure, but burn that cancerous faith out, you glorious green bastards!").Wow. Really?
I mean, I'm actually a pretty hardcore feminist...but this seems pretty extreme. Aside from the sexism, Erastil's a pretty good guy (helps the helpless, heals the sick, provides for the hungry, etc.), and many of his priests and such aren't even sexist.
It's not like he's gonna force anyone to abide by his particular rules. That's not how LG works.
Yes, really. I hate misogyny with a burning passion. I should probably also note that I could never play a paladin, so my good characters aren't beacons of goodness or something. <_< But yes...they would be quite happy (as would I) to watch as Erastil's faith dies out and vanishes from the face of the world (next up - Asmodeus! either that or figure out some way to supplant him with Eiseth - I know, I know, basically impossible, but I can dream! <_<)
Make a LG god that's a grumpy conservative.
WATCH THE SKIES BURN.
Voice your personal preference as not being completely uber grimdark and gritty and "realistic".
WATCH THE FLAMES GROW.
Jokes aside, I think Erastil doesn't count as evil, as I doubt many of his followers would really stand for subjugation of women and such. Hell, he throws duties on both genders, based off beliefs that kind of objectify both. "Men shouldn't be cooking, they should be cutting firewood for the stove. Women shouldn't be cutting firewood for the stove, they should be cooking". It's the followers who might take his teachings the wrong way, not Erastil himself. Asmodeus is the real problem and the real misogynist monster of Golarion. Hell, it's only made worse when you find out that one of his underlings, an infernal duke named Zepar, is the demigod of rape!! (And it still baffles me how sex with consent is somehow not as mature a theme as rape to some people. It's grittier and nastier, yes, but they're both mature, adult themes...)
True, but compared to the people who DID enforce such views in that day and age were a lot more brutal, so they would have been more on the Evil spectrum from a D&D stand-point than Neutral or Good.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course, this is D&D fantasyland and not Ars Magica "1220 with dragons", so women run in full plate across dungeons and hold much more of an equal position (the game consistently states that "gender doesn't matter" across all editions), so Erastil is something more of a "grumpy traditionalist" than "mainstream macho" in context of Golarion.
Still, I think that having a deity with such a portfolio makes the setting more colourful. If conservatism would be exclusive to Neutral/Evil deities it would be all too easy to go "liberalism is Good, conservatism is ooga booga!". Stuff like Erastil makes it less black and white. Props to Sean, who is a vehement liberal IRL, for writing such a deity.
I think that most of Erastil outrage comes from the fact that people are used to classic deity tropes with Good gods being cuddly, fuzzy and politically correct. Then along comes a guy who almost looks like a totally stereotypical benevolent woodlands hunter deity until OH WAIT HE WANTS ME IN THE KITCHEN BIRTHING BABIES OHNOZ!
And...that makes it any less valid? I disagree. Now, I will say that I don't oppose Erastil being in the game, though I would peg him as neutral at best because of that...but I also kinda like having a good church to oppose and try to tear down at every turn.
And for what it's worth, I have the same feelings toward any deity, society, organization, etc. with misogynistic beliefs.
So...how does that translate to "men should always be the head of the household"? Sure, I'd totally understand him being all for marriage and reproduction and strongly encouraging that, it's when he basically says "...and the men should hold the power!" that he becomes sexist.
And that's why I despise him, and even my good characters would rather see his churches burn that stop the goblins (contain them to keep from spreading, sure, but burn that cancerous faith out, you glorious green bastards!").
And this is why so many people dislike the modern day feminism. Those are some really extreme views you have, and seems like a very hardcore self-insert on your own characters. I like equality in many things, but equality is something that goes both ways.
Also, burning churches because of an unreasonable hatred for misogony would not make you good. Two wrongs does not make a right, etc. It's the same as a crazy witch hunter burning women he considers witches in the name of good.
So...how does that translate to "men should always be the head of the household"? Sure, I'd totally understand him being all for marriage and reproduction and strongly encouraging that, it's when he basically says "...and the men should hold the power!" that he becomes sexist.
And that's why I despise him, and even my good characters would rather see his churches burn that stop the goblins (contain them to keep from spreading, sure, but burn that cancerous faith out, you glorious green bastards!").
And this is why so many people dislike the modern day feminism. Those are some really extreme views you have, and seems like a very hardcore self-insert on your own characters. I like equality in many things, but equality is something that goes both ways.
Also, burning churches because of an unreasonable hatred for misogony would not make you good. Two wrongs does not make a right, etc. It's the same as a crazy witch hunter burning women he considers witches in the name of good.
Yes, equality is something that goes both ways - notice I didn't say I hate Abadar, just because he's male, or that women should always be in charge/head of household/whatever? I'm all for equality...I won't give support, tacit or otherwise, to misogyny though.
Also, my hatred of it is hardly unreasonable, nor did I ever claim to be good. How is it unreasonable to hate misogyny? And no, it's nowhere near the same - one is a building and a faith, the other is a living, feeling person. Guess which one I have more sympathy for.
Though knowing Lamashtu, the flags she cheers with are made of human skin and bones.
While you chase around torching Erastil's churches, Lamasthu cheers "you go girl!" :)
lol, she might, but I have no love for Lamashtu either. But there's lots and lots of people out there trying to destroy Lamashtu and her worshippers, and someone's gotta burn the Erastilan churches. ^_-
Besides, if I'm gonna have a demon lord cheering for me, I prefer Nocticula or Zura. *sagenods*
I think you should rather be burning the churches of Asmodeus and the shrines of Zepar. They're both misogynists (and Evil to the core), while Erastil is just a tad sexist.
I think you should rather be burning the churches of Asmodeus and the shrines of Zepar. They're both misogynists (and Evil to the core), while Erastil is just a tad sexist.
Oh, I do. Make no mistake, my ire isn't reserved for Erastil, but neither does he get a pass. I actually have played (and am currently playing, in one campaign) devotees/favourers of Eiseth who seek to advance her standing and power in the hopes of eventually (probably not in their lifetimes, of course) placing her on Hell's throne. And no, not just because she's female, though I do find that terribly fitting, for a demoness to overthrow Azzy; I really like the erinyes, in myth and Golarion, so putting the erinyes queen on the throne would be great.
I just like redeeming villains, and Erinyes just seem to be good candidates for that. Of course, I also love poetic justice, so I'd totally go for a Cleric of Calistria who takes an obsessive degree of pleasure in butchering Asmodeus' minions, using torture devices on torturers and doing something rather explicit to those following Zepar. Though I think she'd cause trouble for Erastil's churches as well.
I just like redeeming villains, and Erinyes just seem to be good candidates for that. Of course, I also love poetic justice, so I'd totally go for a Cleric of Calistria who takes an obsessive degree of pleasure in butchering Asmodeus' minions, using torture devices on torturers and doing something rather explicit to those following Zepar. Though I think she'd cause trouble for Erastil's churches as well.
Oooh, that sounds like fun, although I think I'd go for an inquisitor (for some reason I just don't click with clerics - I think it's the "having to spend rounds buffing" thing <_<). I can't say I'm much for redemption, though (I'm more a judgement kinda girl), but the Calistrian thing sounds...pretty awesome, lol. Now I just need to find a "slaughter the chauvinists and their minions" campaign somewhere... ^_-
If I were DM, and you were living in Finland, that could be arranged.
Edit: Had a really silly typo there. XD
If I were DM, and you were living in Finland, that could be arranged.
Edit: Had a really silly typo there. XD
lol, if only! Incidentally, Calistria is my favorite of the deities, too. <_<
Incidentally, my current DM dislikes her, and he dislikes my female-only homebrew race. >_>
Don't know his opinion on Erastil or Asmodeus though.
Odd - I hadn't actually read up on Erastil. Lawful Good? I'd figured Neutral, maybe NG. In my own definition, I was playing up the Celtic in him...the quiet walker of deep dark places, with a healthy helping of that masculine strength and sexuality which responds only to its equivalent in women. The symbol of the hunt in particular appeals to me as a metaphor for many driving forces - that half-controlled, half-patient restlessness, all of the searching-seeking aspects of life and living, getting at the deep brambly root of it...
That's what I get for not reading the canon...likely I will keep it my way. Too many fun hunt-myths, horned men, women running with wolves...
|
|
Also, my hatred of it is hardly unreasonable, nor did I ever claim to be good. How is it unreasonable to hate misogyny?
Erastil is not a misogynist. He is a male chauvinist. While the two seem similar on paper, the practical reality of the two concepts are vastly different. Misogyny is the hatred of women, and nowhere is it suggested or implied that Erastil hates women in any manner.
A male chauvinist like Erastil believes women are the "weaker sex," and therefore it is the duty of males to lay down their lives to protect them.
A misogynist like Asmodeus believes that women are the weaker sex, and therefore it is the duty of men to dominate them at all times and use women solely for their own pleasure.
And no, it's nowhere near the same - one is a building and a faith, the other is a living, feeling person. Guess which one I have more sympathy for.
Unlike on actual Earth, on Golarion, temples are focal points of the power of the gods. So the destruction of a temple or a shrine can have devastating effects on a community, especially one that depends on the help of Erastil to keep them from starving through the winter. So while a temple is not a flesh and blood person, it is of more significance than just any regular building.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"grumpy traditionalist" nails it on the head for me.
|
|
To take a "Malazan-ish" perspective on it: Gods influence their worshippers personalities, and some Gods are influenced by their worshippers personalities. Being an archaic, elder diety, I'd think his views on things would be relevant to when he originally ascended/came into being. Although if that were true, he should be moved to adapt to his current followers cultural maturity..
|
|
Although if that were true, he should be moved to adapt to his current followers cultural maturity..
Why? Most of Erastil's followers belong to unadvanced rural communities for which things have not changed much for hundreds of generations. And it isn't as if he is the god of stoning disobedient women or making blood sacrifices of outsiders.
Other than his slightly archaic views on gender roles, what is so shockingly offensive about Erastil?
I think the good ladies and gentlemen at Paizo were thinking of Walt Kowalski from Gran Torino when they dreamed up Erastil. I certainly imagine that Erastil's voice sounds like Clint Eastwood's.
Having read both the article on Erastil in Pathfinder #32 and the article on St. Cuthbert in Dragon Magazine #358 I generally figured that Sean had taken a lot of what he wrote for St. Cuthbert & thought 'Well, I don't want this to go to waste'. There are a lot of strong similarities, particularly as Sean took St. Cuthbert back to being Lawful Good as he was originally rather than Lawful Neutral as hew was re-written for 3.0/3.5
|
|
Although if that were true, he should be moved to adapt to his current followers cultural maturity..Why? Most of Erastil's followers belong to unadvanced rural communities for which things have not changed much for hundreds of generations. And it isn't as if he is the god of stoning disobedient women or making blood sacrifices of outsiders.
Other than his slightly archaic views on gender roles, what is so shockingly offensive about Erastil?
I agree that if they havent changed, then he shouldnt. My point was that maybe gods reflect their worshippers as much as vice versa. Theres nothing in my statement about "SHOCKINGLY OFFENSIVE" practices.
|
|
Well, I guess that depends on the type of game you play. I've just checked Rise of the Runelords, and the highest cleric in Sandpoint is only level 4. So most towns will not have a cleric capable of casting cure disease at all.
Since 90% or more of the population live outside of cities, most people will not have access to a cleric of high enough level.
They also have Mother Mvashti, who's an 8th level spellcaster. She happens to be a Mystic Theurge, and thus also lacking such spells...but that's hardly the norm.
He's also very new to his position, and it seems likely that both his predecessor and he in a few years will hit 5th level. Check out the settlement rules (which seem to reflect Golarion well and are as official a measure as we have), by them 3rd level spells are available in almost any village of over 60 people. Which is certainly most communities, IMO.
I looked into this kind of thing quite a bit for my Level Demographics thread, and determined that it actually fit Sandpoint pretty well, too, in regards to people's actual levels there.
|
|
I agree that if they havent changed, then he shouldnt. My point was that maybe gods reflect their worshippers as much as vice versa. Theres nothing in my statement about "SHOCKINGLY OFFENSIVE" practices.Although if that were true, he should be moved to adapt to his current followers cultural maturity..Why? Most of Erastil's followers belong to unadvanced rural communities for which things have not changed much for hundreds of generations. And it isn't as if he is the god of stoning disobedient women or making blood sacrifices of outsiders.
Other than his slightly archaic views on gender roles, what is so shockingly offensive about Erastil?
You're right. I guess it is just my knee-jerk reaction towards the things that have been said by the previous posters who seem to think that Erastil is some kind of crypto-Taliban type of God.
Churches holding slightly embarrassing, opinionated conservative views that don't gel with how society actually works is exactly how religion works in real life.
+1 to the Paizo team for verisimilitude.
Indeed. And I should like to add that in spite of these drawbacks and archaic views, both Erastil and his followers manage to remain good people. Just like most of the followers of religion in real life.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Erastil is not a misogynist. He is a male chauvinist. While the two seem similar on paper, the practical reality of the two concepts are vastly different. Misogyny is the hatred of women, and nowhere is it suggested or implied that Erastil hates women in any manner.A male chauvinist like Erastil believes women are the "weaker sex," and therefore it is the duty of males to lay down their lives to protect them.
A misogynist like Asmodeus believes that women are the weaker sex, and therefore it is the duty of men to dominate them at all times and use women solely for their own pleasure.
And I hate both and want both to burn in the worst possible way.
And no, it's nowhere near the same - one is a building and a faith, the other is a living, feeling person. Guess which one I have more sympathy for.
Unlike on actual Earth, on Golarion, temples are focal points of the power of the gods. So the destruction of a temple or a shrine can have devastating effects on a community, especially one that depends on the help of Erastil to keep them from starving through the winter. So while a temple is not a flesh and blood person, it is of more significance than just any regular building.
Then they can start worshipping a deity worthy of worship. Say, Desna, or Abadar, or Calistria, or Shelyn, or Iomedae, or Gozreh, or...the list goes on and on. When I say "watch his temples burn", I don't mean just the structure, I mean the faith entirely. It fills me with delight to excise belief in him from the face of the world, along with Asmodeus and all the other misogynist/chauvinist/sexist/etc. deities, faiths, societies, organizations, cultures, and individuals - I like nothing more than destroying them utterly, so thoroughly that even the memory of their names is lost for all time.
In short, because men are more expandable than women. Do you really consider bearing all responsibility a good thing?
If there is trouble, then the head of the house takes care of it and puts himself in danger. If there is legal problem, it's the head of house that's held responsible. If a lord requires work to be done, it's the head of the house that needs to answer.
Let the men take care of the hard physical stuff, the risky stuff, while the women take care of the household, raising children, and the educated work; herb lore and cooking in an age without refrigeration is about the most educated...
Which is still no reason they should always have the power. If anything, that's an argument for women to have more power, if men are more expendable. Now, my personal belief is that gender should have no bearing whatsoever on who holds power - fine, encourage men to do the dangerous things if they're "less important", but that in no way justifies "the man should always be the head of the household" and the like. That's just flat out sexist.
|
|
DrowVampyre brings up a salient point.
Given that the Gods exist, they are immortal, powerful individuals whose word is law, this effectively makes church reform very unlikely unless the clerics can convince the God himself to change his views. And given that clerics are effectively divine sycophants, that's unlikely.
So while on Earth, we have the clergy debate the edicts and vote on reform to remove outdated views, this can't happen on Golarion, unless a cleric of Erastil wants to be discommunicated and lose his divine connection.
Let's say the clerics of Erastil cast Miracle to summon a proxy of their God.
High int/wis Cleric of Erastil: Oh great One Eye, we are losing the flock. The womenfolk are leaving to worship Desna in droves!
Erastil's shiny proxy: This is your fault for not being as strong as I command! If you were true to the teachings, they would defer to your judgement! Father knows best!
Cleric: Nay! The teachings are confining the women's roles, their abilities and not allowing them to reach their full potential.
Erastil: LIES! Get yourself an atonement!
Cleric: But! Times have changed!
Erastil: *SMITE!*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Then they can start worshipping a deity worthy of worship. Say, Desna, or Abadar, or Calistria, or Shelyn, or Iomedae, or Gozreh, or...the list goes on and on. When I say "watch his temples burn", I don't mean just the structure, I mean the faith entirely. It fills me with delight to excise belief in him from the face of the world, along with Asmodeus and all the other misogynist/chauvinist/sexist/etc. deities, faiths, societies, organizations, cultures, and individuals - I like nothing more than destroying them utterly, so thoroughly that even the memory of their names is lost for all time.
While I would contest Calistria being worthy of worship (That's just me) destroying the memory would be short sighted. Memories of bad things and ill time should be remembered so those who come later will noy be unprepared when they raise they're head again.
While I would contest Calistria being worthy of worship (That's just me) destroying the memory would be short sighted. Memories of bad things and ill time should be remembered so those who come later will noy be unprepared when they raise they're head again.
Then they can start worshipping a deity worthy of worship. Say, Desna, or Abadar, or Calistria, or Shelyn, or Iomedae, or Gozreh, or...the list goes on and on. When I say "watch his temples burn", I don't mean just the structure, I mean the faith entirely. It fills me with delight to excise belief in him from the face of the world, along with Asmodeus and all the other misogynist/chauvinist/sexist/etc. deities, faiths, societies, organizations, cultures, and individuals - I like nothing more than destroying them utterly, so thoroughly that even the memory of their names is lost for all time.
True, but remembering them more for the reason they were destroyed than their names (so that no one tries to resurrect the faith) is sufficient. Besides, that way we don't hafta have Godwin come up with another law for when people compare something to Erastil. ^_-