Well I finally gave in an attempted to stat out my favorite comic character for a 1st level one shot me and my group are doing, so let me know what you guys think...
GRAYSON
Male Human Fighter(Unarmed Fighter) 1
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +0
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DEFENSE
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 13
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will -1
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Dan Bong +1 (1d3+2/19-20/x2) and
Dan Bong +1 (1d3+1/19-20/x2)
Ranged Shuriken +4 (1d2+2/20/x2)
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STATISTICS
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Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14
Base Atk +1; CMB +3 (+5 Grappling); CMD 16 (18 vs. Grapple)
Feats Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Panther Style, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Reactionary, Silent Watcher
Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb +0, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Perception +0, Ride +1, Stealth +2, Swim +0
I was trying to get as close as I could to the feel of the character, I know I'd never be able to stat him out perfectly, but I did my best.
Doesnt he use tonfas?
Eventually I would give him skill focus acrobatics.
Why Dan Bong instead of Tonfa? The only advantage is the grappling boost, and I'm not sure why you'd want to go grapple with this character (Nightwing seems more speed/agility focused than wrestling).
Honestly, I'd go Monk (Martial Artist archetype)...flurry with tonfas would be pretty sweet, and character appropriate. Maybe the weapon-based monk archetype instead.
I'd also suggest Combat Reflexes if you're going to go Panther style, to get the best use out of it.
Why Dan Bong instead of Tonfa? The only advantage is the grappling boost, and I'm not sure why you'd want to go grapple with this character (Nightwing seems more speed/agility focused than wrestling).
Honestly, I'd go Monk (Martial Artist archetype)...flurry with tonfas would be pretty sweet, and character appropriate. Maybe the weapon-based monk archetype instead.
I'd also suggest Combat Reflexes if you're going to go Panther style, to get the best use out of it.
I went with the dan bong as it's the closest weapon I could find to escrima sticks.
I went witht he fighter class as I have never made a monk, never had the inclination to play a monk, and just don't want to play a monk.(nothing against the class it just has zero appeal for me) But maybe I'll give him a whirl as said monk archtype
Well, for this sort of character, you get more out of monk. You lose a point of BAB, but 1 point is negligible at low levels (if you raise levels, multiclass to fighter before going past Mnk4, so you don't lose another...Mnk4 is a pretty good breakpoint anyway). You lose 1 HP, on average, per level. You lose a feat, but you get a couple of good bonus feats to make up for it. And you lose a bunch of weapon/armor proficiencies you weren't going to use anyway.
And then you gain basically free TWF (flurry), AC bonus if you fight unarmored (which Nightwing does), better skills (which are appropriate to Nightwing), and better saves. I call that a win.
And as far as flavor...the whole point of the martial artist archetype is that you're a not-very-monkish monk...no alignment restrictions, no mystical/ascetic feel.
I'm not saying a fighter couldn't work; it could. But I wouldn't go unarmed fighter, personally...if you're planning to get to 3rd level, try the Brawler archetype...+1/+3 with close combat weapons (which includes unarmed strikes AND dan bong, btw). :)
Umm... he has to go fighter, for all the weapon proficiencies he needs. He needs (and this is just a rough estimate of what I've seen Robin AND Nightwing use)
Tonfas
Staves of all kinds
baseball bat (club)
sap
shuriken
bombs (smoke, flash)
bolas
yo yos
boomerangs (batarangs. Remember...Robin?)
grappling hooks
weighted chains
whip
hammer
ice climbing axe
rope
Now all that is IN ADDITION TO highly energetic and acrobatic fighting style of hand-to-hand. Yes, Robin DID grapple, quite frequently. He also tripped a lot, disarmed, and could even be counted on for a dirty trick or two.
As he got older (and darker) Dick tended toward more weapon focus and ninja-type skills with the Teen Titans. He had to; now he was facing Slade and a horde of high-end villains with armor and such. He also became a bit more direct. He practiced with the sword and did Kenpo, but I don't think he every fully embraced the full Wolverine vibe of the 80's and 90's - he never went THAT dark.
But then the Titans broke up, and Nightwing began prowling. Eventually he returned to Gotham. The acrobatics returned, but with ALL manner of blunt weapon as well. He fully perfected his ninja stealth skills and spying at that point, though never got old school like Bruce with disguises and such. Still, Dick was a product of a simpler time and you can see, even when he gets written into stories with Batman now, nearly 60 years after hitting the scene he STILL reverts to those more playful tactics and tricks.
Let's face it: Robin will always be a little boy, a circus acrobat, who just wants mommy and daddy back. Bear all this in mind when statting him out.
And maybe go Ninja.
Edit: I forgot - he REALLY likes motorcycles. Don't know what to do w/that, but there you go.
Umm... he has to go fighter, for all the weapon proficiencies he needs. He needs (and this is just a rough estimate of what I've seen Robin AND Nightwing use)
Tonfas
Staves of all kinds
baseball bat (club)
sap
shuriken
bombs (smoke, flash)
bolas
yo yos
boomerangs (batarangs. Remember...Robin?)
grappling hooks
weighted chains
whip
hammer
ice climbing axe
rope
Weren't most of those simply "one-time" uses of whatever was handy (i.e. Improvised Weapons)? Maybe he had the Catch-off Guard feat or something.
As Robin, I only ever saw him use his hands and feet and batarangs (a sling or slingshot on occasion), and I'd consider batarangs like shuriken. As Nightwing, I've seen him use various weapons that could all be called clubs/staves, or tonfas. Maybe bolas (but aren't they an exotic weapon anyway?).
In short, I don't think you need fighter for those weapons.
Yes, Robin DID grapple, quite frequently. He also tripped a lot, disarmed, and could even be counted on for a dirty trick or two.
Never said he didn't. But did he grapple as often as he simply punched guys in the face, or (as Nightwing) used a stick/tonfa? Personally, I see him as much more a striker than a dedicated grappler.
I still see Monk as a better way to model him, but to each his own.
Monk/Ninja then, I'll meet you halfway. He has some decent stealth skills and tricks. No, he's not a dedicated grappler. He is however a dedicated acrobat.
Seriously, I have like 5 graphic novels downstairs that have Dick/Robin in them right now and in all of them they make specific reference to his origins as a circus acrobat and show him doing leaps and tumbles. But then in one of them he's scaling walls using climbing claws and hiding in shadows like...well, a ninja. But that acrobat thing came up over and over.
I don't know WHAT class to put that in. But I do think that along with "punching guys in the face" he's using a lot of tricks that take advantage of his small size. So maybe not fighter, and yes to improvised weapons (in an OLD one he made a sling shot from a tennis racket and fired a baseball with laces tied to it out of a pit for a grappling hook. He's such a Boy Wonder!) but then he's got lots of monk/ninja weapon skills too.
But that acrobat thing came up over and over.
I don't know WHAT class to put that in.
Monks have Acrobatics and Stealth as class skills. Fighters don't. Seems pretty obvious to me.
I could see a case for Ninja (I'm not very familiar with that class). But I'd bet Dick Grayson is DEFINITELY multiclassed.
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But I'd bet Dick Grayson is DEFINITELY multiclassed.
Yeah, because Dick Grayson has Multitudinous Class! You think Beast Boy or Raven could've led those punks? I've seen that kid stare DEATH in the face. And I love that he's the ONLY one other than Alfred that's ever convinced Bruce to "let it go". Are you FREAKING kidding me? Batman wrote the BOOK on being hard, and you got him to lighten up? Maybe even a level or 2 of bard just to be able to crack the dark knight's shell...
First I'd like to remind everyone that the OP said he wanted a playable Nightwing. I hate it when I want to build a comic character and people come stomping in with everything a character has ever done in a comic. I would want a build that would answer the question: if I were telling new stories about the character, what iconic abilities would I have to have. Also, if you only have one level, that isn't much to work with.
If I had a whole campaign to play, I'd go ninja or rogue with a focus on sap master feats since the bat clan focus on not killing people.
For Batman, I would go ninja, but for Nightwing, I would go rogue with the acrobat archetype. To me, he isn't the best fighter or sneaker in the DC universe, but he is the best acrobat.
Wow its kind of sad that I never even thought of making him a ninja, now I know what I'll be doing later...
First I'd like to remind everyone that the OP said he wanted a playable Nightwing. I hate it when I want to build a comic character and people come stomping in with everything a character has ever done in a comic. I would want a build that would answer the question: if I were telling new stories about the character, what iconic abilities would I have to have. Also, if you only have one level, that isn't much to work with.
If I had a whole campaign to play, I'd go ninja or rogue with a focus on sap master feats since the bat clan focus on not killing people.
For Batman, I would go ninja, but for Nightwing, I would go rogue with the acrobat archetype. To me, he isn't the best fighter or sneaker in the DC universe, but he is the best acrobat.
Thank you, people didn't seem to read the part where I said I knew I couldn't get him down perfectly, I just wanted to capture the feel of an acribatic escrimador who happens to wear a mask.
One level Dick Grayson? Rogue - acrobat arch. He carries a staff. Skill Focus - Acrobatics. As he goes UP in levels (which he inevitably will; reference back to my statement of his classiness!) his skills should improve along the lines of 1) tricks that incorporate his acrobatic nature (Nimble Climber rogue talent, Nimble Maneuvers feat), 2) movement powers, 3) stealth.
Lower strength; he's never going to be the damaging type, even as nightwing. He uses SKILL, not STRENGTH...strength was always batman's forte. And Wisdom should go up. He's a DETECTVE. Again, maybe not as good as Bats but certainly brighter than most of humanity.
Generally speaking I agree with the unarmed fighter choice, but I also agree with Mark Hoover--if you're building Dick Grayson from ground up, advancing him as Dick Grayson advanced (very roughly speaking), then start him as a Rogue Acrobat.
But I'd go into unarmed fighter later on. (And either way, if you want to start with fighter levels, dip into rogue later on for the extra class skills and skill points--and even a dip into sneak attack doesn't hurt. I think it makes sense he'd do some precision damage as opposed to brute force.)
I don't see the need for monk here either, unless you want to dip into 1 level for 1d6 unarmed damage. I think acrobat/unarmed fighter gets everything you need.
@ Mic...rex (and incidentally anyone I teed off with my comments) sorry if I came off abrasive and for not reading the original post more closely. I'm a total comic geek if you couldn't tell! Anyway, I was kind of Dick Grayson myself if you catch my meaning, so sorry.
I still say that, somewhere in his career though, DG needs a level of ninja. Not sayin, just sayin...
@ Mic...rex (and incidentally anyone I teed off with my comments) sorry if I came off abrasive and for not reading the original post more closely. I'm a total comic geek if you couldn't tell! Anyway, I was kind of Dick Grayson myself if you catch my meaning, so sorry.
I still say that, somewhere in his career though, DG needs a level of ninja. Not sayin, just sayin...
Hey as a fellow comic book geek, I didn't find your comments abrasive, and with Nightwing as my all time favorite comic book character I do want to get him as close as I can, but the things that are stopping me is this is just a one shot 1st level mod so one of our players can try his hand at being a dm, and I know that there is almost no way to accurately recreate Dick Grayson in pathfinder. So I'm looking at this as more of a thought experiment.
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I think the biggest thing that you need to decide is, what aspect of Dick do you want to play for this one-shot?
My favorite aspect is the rogue-ish portion. Stealth, acrobatics, mobility, and skill. That is why I suggested rogue. I didn't suggest ninja because I was thinking down the line. Dick never had ki abilities, and I feel should have Evasion, which the ninja gives up. Also, I don't really see the Poison Use over the Trapfinding.
Just my opinion, but Nightwing is my favorite DC hero as well, and possibly my favorite of all time...
The problem with trying to design Pathfinder or D and D characters that are based on comic characters is that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, especially depending on what period in the character's history you are trying to emulate.
The problem with trying to design Pathfinder or D and D characters that are based on comic characters is that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, especially depending on what period in the character's history you are trying to emulate.
It barely works. Making them like monsters by just giving them appropriate abilities works better. If they're just trying to have a pathfinder version, fine, but trying to make them exactly like in the comic isn't going to happen for the most part. You gain too many abilities in pathfinder.
You know, there are superhero games that work from the 3.0 platform.
You could also look at d20 modern or Spycraft for ideas.
If those are a no go, I'd make sure to have ranks in ride, and consider batarangs to be a kind of shuriken. They change in size dramatically depending on who the artist is.
And if you're going for the dark knight strikes again angle, I recommend half-troll ; )
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The OP is trying to make a 1st lvl version to play in a one-shot game that is a player trying his hand at GM for the first time.
So, I would not drop any 3rd party stuff, or advanced concepts like half-troll on the guy. ;)
Well, good luck to the OP! Unarmed Fighter is a neat way to go! Too bad the rest of the party doesn't want to go the route of Teen Titans! Woo hoo, Beast Boy Druid! :p
Alchemist for Cyborg
Raven...sorcerer, maybe oracle?
Starfire...definitely sorcerer
Titans GO!
They live in a giant T-shaped wizard's tower. Mad Mod and Slade would be great villains! OMG I feel a whole campaign coming on...
Kid Flash - Monk
Superboy - Invulnerable Rager
Speedy - RangerKind of stuck on the new Aqualad from Young Justice season 1...
Now somebody HAS to write up Slade... BA, himself... :p
For YJ Aqualad I'd suggest using the Gillman Monster PC race. Pretty much perfect. Maybe Magus for the magic weapon attacks (specifically enchanting for shock).
Superboy, I see level dipping two levels of ranger for natural weapon combat style for the Aspect of the Beast feat for constant claw attacks.
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Kid Flash - Monk
Superboy - Invulnerable Rager
Speedy - RangerKind of stuck on the new Aqualad from Young Justice season 1...
Now somebody HAS to write up Slade... BA, himself... :p
Dick Grayson - I'd stat him up as an Unarmed Fighter(As I did in the OP)though at higher levels I'd add som thief acrobat levels
Kid Flash - Monk(even though I detest the class)Raven - I'd probably go Oracle, but you can argue Sorcerer
Starfire - I'd probably make a ranged Magus
Cyborg - Alchemist
Beast Boy - Druid of course
Aqualad - Gillman aquatic ranger though with YJ he'd be multiclassed into sorcerer
Speedy - Ranged Fighter
Superboy - You're probably right with the Invulnerable Ranger
Wonder Girl - I got nothing
Have you re-visted this with Advanced Classes out?
This is interesting. Would he be more vigliante now?
This is interesting. Would he be more vigliante now?
Sorry about the thread necro, but of course now I'd probably go vigilante, but at least to me my problem with the vigilante class is that it either requires the entire party to be vigilantes, (which is an awesome idea) or it forces your GM to really twist things around in the campaign to really allow you to shine using both sides of the class.