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What trumps what?
Shield Proficiency says "Benefit: When you use a shield (except a tower shield), the shield's armor check penalty only applies to Strength- and Dexterity-based skills.
Normal: When you are using a shield with which you are not proficient, you take the shield's armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving."
Weapon Finesse says "If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls."
If a PC is shield proficient the armor check penalty no longer applies to attack rolls. Does Weapon Finesse then add it back in, because you are using your Dex bonus instead of your Str bonus? If so, is the implication that wielding a shield is hampering enough that it modulates your agility?
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Specific trumps general.
The general rule is that proficient shield usage does not suffer that penalty. The more specific rule is that Weapon Finesse applies that penalty. So a shield-proficient Finesse guy takes his shield's ACP to attack rolls.
So... better make it a masterwork buckler/light shield. ;)
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Wonder if you aren't proficient in a shield and use weapon finesse, does it add it twice?
This looks like a good FAQ candidate. Its pretty silly that a dex-based shield character can't attack well while using a shield.
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The world didn't end in 2012? I guess people were wrong about those Mayan calendars.
The world didn't end in 2012? I guess people were wrong about those Mayan calendars.
Would rather revive an old thread on an unresolved issue than start a new one.
I've always read it as weapon finesse still means a shield applies a penalty, but proficient shield users don't have a penalty to apply.
Huh.
That is probably why this needs a FAQ answer. Can be interpreted in multiple ways.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
That is probably why this needs a FAQ answer. Can be interpreted in multiple ways.I've always read it as weapon finesse still means a shield applies a penalty, but proficient shield users don't have a penalty to apply.
Huh.
No, it doesn't. Jiggy solved the case already.
You have a PC with a Light Shield. He is proficient in Shields as both a piece of armor and a weapon. This means that normally, he does not suffer extraneous penalties to attack rolls due to lack of proficiency with Light Shields, neither as a piece of armor or as a weapon.
Now, that same PC later takes Weapon Finesse. The feat says that if you're carrying [read: wielding] a shield while performing attacks through Weapon Finesse, those penalties apply to any attack rolls you make. So if I decide to perform Unarmed Strikes? The penalty applies. If I decide to draw out a Rapier or similar weapon and attack with it? The penalty applies. If I decide to attack with my Light Shield? The penalty applies.
Nothing else matters with Weapon Finesse; you don't suffer penalties due to lack of proficiency, you suffer penalties on all of your attacks with Weapon Finesse, not just ones made with a shield, because you're using a shield in those times that you are performing Weapon Finesse attacks. The condition to apply the penalty to every attack you make with Weapon Finesse is if you are or are not carrying [again, read: wielding] a shield. If you are, it applies, if not, then no.
What trumps what?
*Opens mouth*
...
*Closes mouth*
God, that word is never going to be usable again, is it?