I'm not trained to competently argue research conducted by professional geneticists published in worldwide peer-reviewed journals.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
No but you should be able to tell the difference between whats actually in the research and what people SAY is in the research. There's usually an enormous gap in between them.
I was not briefed on the articles, I read them myself.
Bruunwald claimed there was a "gay gene". This is what BNW rejected, due to the studies showing no such thing, rather, there was an area containing a whole lot of genes.
And while you said 99% of gay men had a certain statistic in that area, did any of the straight men have it? If so, how many? That would be equally important (because saying that "90% of gay men are right handed, so right-handedness must be an indicator of gayness" is kind of stupid - not saying you do, just explaining my rationale for asking).
Ah--interwebz arguments are often like yelling at each other in a dark room.
I'm not at home to look, and I don't recall any other particulars of the article. I've never read the original research from 93, but I assume off-the-cuff that the 2011 research is more definitive. I'll look when I get home, but I don't recall any disputes in succeeding NEJMs.
Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the emphasized articles (the), because they're not from my post or the NEJM or Science articles;
I'm pointing out the problem with Bruunwalds claims and where they don't match the research. Applying the term "the gene" to a large area of multiple genes thats been linked to everything from homosexuality to autism is problematic. Positive correlation to exclusivity is a logical leap of his own creation, not something from the article.
Quote:
Ah--interwebz arguments are often like yelling at each other in a dark room.
I'm somewhat concerned by your though process here. Are you ok?
Not really. I've been having some... trouble.
stringburka wrote:
Meophist wrote:
I'm not sure how much I'm willing to sacrifice for it, but I want a cure.
A cure for WHAT? :|
Like you, my sexuality's "fluid". It can change over time. Unfortunately for me, it changes repeatedly and randomly. I typically don't go a day without my sexuality changing at least once. I don't like it and it's been driving me insane. It's been happening for about a year and a half now and I wish I could get some sort of control over it, or for it to stop.
I don't really think that can happen unless we learn more about how sexuality works.
Meophist: Is it just your sexuality that seems to be "fluid" or is it your gender identity (too)? There is a new (and controversial) study claiming to have documented mental "gender switching." It needs more research and documentation, but maybe it'll reassure you a little that you're not alone.
personal stuff:
As for fluid sexuality... it took me years to unpack my sexuality (lesbian) and all my issues surrounding it, and I'm still not out to my family and most of friends. I kinda assumed that was all there was to it... until I recently stumbled on the upcoming male model, Andrej Pejic. Rationally, I understand why I find him very attractive, but emotionally I still find it confusing and troubling.
So, if you can, give yourself time and freedom to figure out who is attractive to you both physically and mentally. Remind yourself that there isn't anything inherently wrong or sinful with you and your sexual identity. It may not be an easy journey for you to make, but you owe it to yourself to make that journey. <HUG>
Meophist: Is it just your sexuality that seems to be "fluid" or is it your gender identity (too)? There is a new (and controversial) study claiming to have documented mental "gender switching." It needs more research and documentation, but maybe it'll reassure you a little that you're not alone.
** spoiler omitted **
So, if you can, give yourself time and freedom to figure out who is attractive to you both physically and mentally. Remind yourself that there isn't anything inherently wrong or sinful with you and your sexual identity. It may not be an easy journey for you to make, but you owe it to yourself to make that journey. <HUG>
My gender identity is as well. I think it changes alongside my sexuality, but I'm not really entirely sure about that.
Regardless of whether it's morally or ethically "wrong", which is something I don't really care about, it's been incredibly stressful and rather "painful", in a sense. I don't like it and I've been having quite a bit of trouble doing anything in this state.
I wish I could just ignore it.
Thanks for the link in any case. I don't find my changes to be any bit predictable, unfortunately.
Sometimes I wonder if I was actually straight before the seizure or if I was just deeply repressed and the seizure kicked me into awareness.
What is most terrifying is that there is no way to know.
So much pain has gone into forging my identity. If I had another seizure and switched again, I would probably commit suicide. I simply cannot go through that kind of psychological torture again.
It's one thing to think it's a frightening thing that your mind could be wiped and replaced with another personality. It's utterly terrifying to know that this has already happened and could happen again.
I have heard of people's orientations shifting on biological events. Some are obvious, like a case study I read about a guy that found himself bisexual after having his testicles removed due to cancer (clear hormonal shifts there), but some are less obvious, like seizures and strokes. I can not imagine trying to accommodate such a dramatic identify shift. We know so little about it.
My frequent changes in sexual orientation and gender basically destroyed any sense of identity I may've had. I find it difficult to remember how I used to perceive things. These changes have warped my perspective.
My frequent changes in sexual orientation and gender basically destroyed any sense of identity I may've had. I find it difficult to remember how I used to perceive things. These changes have warped my perspective.
It's annoying.
Its probably also well beyond any generalities in the thread.
Have you tried seeing a doctor about it? It could be anything from a genetic variation to a pressure on part of your brain to low blood sugar to a whacky endocrine system.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The LGBT community also includes classifications such as "ambiguous" for people who simply don't seem to have a stable or sharply defined gender self identity. There actually are doctors and counselors who specialise in this area. Those are the folks that you can trust to consult without gender bias.
I would suggest calling your local PRIDE center or LGBT support group to recommend such a person to consult.
My frequent changes in sexual orientation and gender basically destroyed any sense of identity I may've had. I find it difficult to remember how I used to perceive things. These changes have warped my perspective.
It's annoying.
If it's switching so often, do you see yourself as beeing male-gendered one day and female-gendered another day, or do you see yourself as intergender?
I think that for people with fluid sexualities and gender, putting much weight to the gender and/or orientation you have can be harmful. If your basing your whole identity on your gender and sexuality, maybe that in itself is an issue?
I mean, while I'm indentify myself as male, when someone asks me who I am, my gender isn't the first thing that comes into my mind. Building an identity on other things - such as your views on life, your hobbies, your profession, your friends and many other things is probably healthier in the long run for everyone.
Not trying to tell you how to live your life or claim that you are "wrong" in any way, just think that it might be helpful to focus on other things.
Sometimes, focusing too much on an issue can make the issue worse. I knew I had that problem in my gay youth.
My frequent changes in sexual orientation and gender basically destroyed any sense of identity I may've had. I find it difficult to remember how I used to perceive things. These changes have warped my perspective.
It's annoying.
Its probably also well beyond any generalities in the thread.
Have you tried seeing a doctor about it? It could be anything from a genetic variation to a tumor on part of your brain to low blood sugar to a whacky endocrine system.
Sorry, just trying to explain why I feel what I do.
I've tried seeing a doctor; apparently I got put on a referral to somewhere else and am possibly on a waiting list. It's been near half year since I heard anything, however. In the mean time, I've been looking for somebody else, and have tried going to counselors but have been recommended other places who recommend other places and so on.
The latest place may help and am currently on a waiting list.
stringburka wrote:
Meophist wrote:
My frequent changes in sexual orientation and gender basically destroyed any sense of identity I may've had. I find it difficult to remember how I used to perceive things. These changes have warped my perspective.
It's annoying.
If it's switching so often, do you see yourself as beeing male-gendered one day and female-gendered another day, or do you see yourself as intergender?
I usually feel either male or female, more often female, although in the odd occasion it's something else. "Intergender" may not be a bad term for it.
stringburka wrote:
I think that for people with fluid sexualities and gender, putting much weight to the gender and/or orientation you have can be harmful. If your basing your whole identity on your gender and sexuality, maybe that in itself is an issue?
I mean, while I'm indentify myself as male, when someone asks me who I am, my gender isn't the first thing that comes into my mind. Building an identity on other things - such as your views on life, your hobbies, your profession, your friends and many other things is probably healthier in the long run for everyone.
Not trying to tell you how to live your life or claim that you are "wrong" in any way, just think that it might be helpful to focus on other things.
Sometimes, focusing too much on an issue can make the issue worse. I knew I had that problem in my gay youth.
I didn't really put much weight on it until it started changing. I mean, before then, I was just some heterosexual person. It wasn't something I really took as a part of my identity, or perhaps, it's something I just took for granted. When it started changing however, it was... confusing.
As I said, if I could just ignore it, I would. I try to spend my time trying to take my mind off of it, but it's something my mind just wanders back to when I'm not specifically thinking of something else.
Lateral gene transmission is a pretty potent argument to Mother Evolution for keeping homosexuality in the gene pool. The presence of a few permanently non reproducing but economically contributing adults in the group improves survivability significantly for that group's offspring.
I'm not a big fan of kin selection. I think its far more likely that there's a combination of genes that lead to an increase in reproductive success in moderation.
You don't have to be. I'm sorry if someone else mentioned this, or if it is so obvious as to be trivial, but sex is very often situational. If people are together, especially in stressful situations (which is to say, all the time, for us), they have sex. In every way that people can have sex-consensual, coercive, m-m, f-f, f-m. For various reasons,gay people produce offspring, not infrequently.
Mehophist:
Well, I wish you success. I thinkg though that when you talk about changing sexuality, you forget a very important option - you assume the homosexual or otherwise un-normal people would prefer to change it, when actualy many people would appreciate the oppurtunity to broaden their sexual orientaiton - out of curiosity or a need for equality.
about genetics vs. enviromental, I think the answear is kind of obvious. look around at the natural world. Humans are most comparable to other mammals, and homosexualty in those other species is scarce to the point of near non-existance. It's true that while most animals do not enjoy sex like humans do, they have the same base urges. If homosexuality is a wired in physical need, I don't know how we can explain the fact that it exists nearly entirely within the confines of humanity. I would dare say that humans *are* in fact more sophisticated and complex than most animals and therefore homosexuality, a human phenomenon, is derived from something deeper and more complex than gene structures. and by "complex" I mean it probably has to do with the brain :P
Well, I wish you success. I thinkg though that when you talk about changing sexuality, you forget a very important option - you assume the homosexual or otherwise un-normal people would prefer to change it, when actualy many people would appreciate the oppurtunity to broaden their sexual orientaiton - out of curiosity or a need for equality.
about genetics vs. enviromental, I think the answear is kind of obvious. look around at the natural world. Humans are most comparable to other mammals, and homosexualty in those other species is scarce to the point of near non-existance. It's true that while most animals do not enjoy sex like humans do, they have the same base urges. If homosexuality is a wired in physical need, I don't know how we can explain the fact that it exists nearly entirely within the confines of humanity. I would dare say that humans *are* in fact more sophisticated and complex than most animals and therefore homosexuality, a human phenomenon, is derived from something deeper and more complex than gene structures. and by "complex" I mean it probably has to do with the brain :P
Bonobos, considered our closest living cousins among extant primates, are frequently cited in this regard. I don't know if any bonobos are known to be preferentially homosexual, but they have been publicized as the sexy ape, as many engage in sex liberally (and creatively) with conspecifics of both sexes. Also because of the important role sex plays in bonobo group life.
Well, I wish you success. I thinkg though that when you talk about changing sexuality, you forget a very important option - you assume the homosexual or otherwise un-normal people would prefer to change it, when actualy many people would appreciate the oppurtunity to broaden their sexual orientaiton - out of curiosity or a need for equality.
I don't think I was assuming anything, although I may've said something indicating it as my mind isn't quite the most optimal at the moment. I was mostly just talking about my own experiences and such. My wanting to find a way to change human sexuality is more selfish than anything.
My frequent changes in sexual orientation and gender basically destroyed any sense of identity I may've had. I find it difficult to remember how I used to perceive things. These changes have warped my perspective.
It's annoying.
Your posts are really confusing because you treat sexual orientation and sexual identity as the same thing. They aren't. I'm male. I'm very much male. I'm also gay. A lesbian may be very much female, but gay. Another person (who has a penis) may be very effeminate, but be sexually attracted to people who have vaginas/breasts. And, to round things out, yet another person (who has a vagina) may be butch, but be sexually attracted to people who have penises (penii? what is the plural for schlong?)
Sexual orientation and sexual identity are not the same thing.
Also, due to the cult I grew up in (real Landover Baptist type of people), I kept switching sexual orientation, myself. I, finally, realized that it was just me being in denial and conflicted by who I was vs. how I was raised. Accepting who I was (real down deep acceptance) brought all that to an end.
My frequent changes in sexual orientation and gender basically destroyed any sense of identity I may've had. I find it difficult to remember how I used to perceive things. These changes have warped my perspective.
It's annoying.
Your posts are really confusing because you treat sexual orientation and sexual identity as the same thing. They aren't. I'm male. I'm very much male. I'm also gay. A lesbian may be very much female, but gay. Another person (who has a penis) may be very effeminate, but be sexually attracted to people who have vaginas/breasts. And, to round things out, yet another person (who has a vagina) may be butch, but be sexually attracted to people who have penises (penii? what is the plural for schlong?)
Sexual orientation and sexual identity are not the same thing.
Also, due to the cult I grew up in (real Landover Baptist type of people), I kept switching sexual orientation, myself. I, finally, realized that it was just me being in denial and conflicted by who I was vs. how I was raised. Accepting who I was (real down deep acceptance) brought all that to an end.
I'm not talking about sexual identity. I'm talking about my sexual orientation and gender identity. Those two change on a frequent, yet random basis. Additionally, this has had an effect on my overall identity.
I used to just simply be heterosexual. I had accepted that for a long time. Things, however, suddenly changed and haven't stopped changing. I don't see myself as being in denial, I do numerous experiments to see what my sexual orientation and gender is at any given moment. I'm finding that what I'm attracted to can change, and change frequently and unpredictably. I'm finding the same with my gender.
I don't know what causes it. Knowing would be nice since that could lead to fixing it.
My frequent changes in sexual orientation and gender basically destroyed any sense of identity I may've had. I find it difficult to remember how I used to perceive things. These changes have warped my perspective.
It's annoying.
I'm sorry you consider it annoying and warped. My own gender identity is genderfluid/genderqueer, and I'm perfectly happy to say a great big F-U to society's rigid gender roles and norms and simply be me. In fact, I rather like it this way. I'd really hate being stuck in a single gender box for the rest of my life, stereotyped and pigeonholed. Ugh, now THAT would feel annoying and warped to me, and like a Procrustean bed. Actually, it does. My negative gender experiences mostly come from being stereotyped or put in a single gender box, which I am just not comfortable with.
I don't bother visually presenting as other than cisgendered, because aside from doing the drag king circuit once or twice a year for charity, I find it way too much trouble to dress up just so people can be properly confused as to my gender.
I find my own gender fluidity to be a good thing, fuel for my creative processes, and a fundamentally positive part of my human experience. Sadly, I am boringly monosexual. I would change that if I could and be pansexual. I don't actually think it's a good thing for me to be cut off from loving intimate relationships with half the human race, and I wish I wasn't.
I respect that your experience of fluidity is different, and that it is a negative for you. For me, I decided that it didn't have to be, so it's not.
If nothing else, being ambigendered makes playing and writing NPC's of both genders easier. ;) At least it does for me. Take the positives where you can get them!
I don't know how you are distinguishing "sexual identity" from "gender identity" or "gender identity" from "sexual orientation". Normally, "sexual identity" and "gender identity" mean the same thing. Technically, "sex" is what you are physically (commonly referring to what's between your legs) and "gender" is how you are socially oriented. Our sexual orientation has got nothing to do with our "gender identity". Whether we like to go in drag has to do with our "gender identity". Some hetero people like to cross dress. Most gay people don't.
I think that all you're saying is that you used to identify as hetero (ie. you were sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex), but no longer. Other than that, nothing has changed for you. You don't want to cross dress or anything like that. In other words, your self-identification of your sexual orientation has expanded, but your gender orientation actually hasn't changed.
If that's true, congratulations on learning more about who you are.
I'm finding that what I'm attracted to can change, and change frequently and unpredictably. I'm finding the same with my gender.
You are not alone.
Hidden for TMI:
My primary partner reports the same experience. He calls it being pansexual. I personally think it's the coolest thing since sliced bread, and it fits right in with my own gender fluidity.
He took some time coming to terms with it when he was younger, but after figuring out that there was such a thing as being able to date someone who was similarly gender flexible, in a poly situation where it was perfectly okay to have a boyfriend and a girlfriend, acceptance is a non issue.
I wish his former partner lived closer to us. She's a pre-op transwoman, a fabulous cosplayer, and a really imaginative roleplayer and storyteller. We really gotta poke her to come by for a visit sometime, and maybe get a Pathfinder game going. Which we'd probably recruit my other partner to run. Poly is complicated, but on the upside of it, it makes for an awesome built-in gaming group. :)
Y'know, everyone fits in somewhere. I get that being on the radical end of pansexuality, gender fluidity and polyamory is not for everyone, but if you really are hardwired that way, it might be nice to know that there's a community you're appreciated in.
Pansexuals are pretty much the glue that holds poly together. I wouldn't have so many nifty people in my extended family if my partner did not have that quality which I respect and value.
I don't know how you are distinguishing "sexual identity" from "gender identity" or "gender identity" from "sexual orientation". Normally, "sexual identity" and "gender identity" mean the same thing. Technically, "sex" is what you are physically (commonly referring to what's between your legs) and "gender" is how you are socially oriented. Our sexual orientation has got nothing to do with our "gender identity". Whether we like to go in drag has to do with our "gender identity". Some hetero people like to cross dress. Most gay people don't.
I think that all you're saying is that you used to identify as hetero (ie. you were sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex), but no longer. Other than that, nothing has changed for you. You don't want to cross dress or anything like that. In other words, your self-identification of your sexual orientation has expanded, but your gender orientation actually hasn't changed.
If that's true, congratulations on learning more about who you are.
Technically, cross-dressing is distinct from gender identity. Some people enjoy dressing as the opposite sex while still comfortable being their physical sex. Some people feel they were born the wrong sex and want to live as the other. Some of these are able to actually transition to the other sex with a "sex change operation". Many of them also cross-dress while they are still physically their birth sex.
Naja, I think it can be problematic to keep switching if someone is looking for a long term relationship. What do you think?
See my post above, the TMI part.
Brief summary, if you're monogamous and in a relationship with a cisgendered person, sure, it could be a problem.
If you're poly and/or in a relationship with a genderfluid or non cisgendered person, it can actually be a +5 to your happy relationship roll. :)
More TMI:
One of the reasons I seriously wish I was pansexual and not just genderfluid is that my other partner is also genderfluid, non transitioning but probably on the trans spectrum, and I can not relate well to his female side. We make it work anyhow, and I certainly respect and support his genderfluidity even if I don't find it personally sexy. But we'd probably have more fun if I was pan or bi. Him too. We're both in exactly the same boat, being genderfluid but monosexual.
My other co-primary is pansexual, and the fact that he thinks I'm equally hot in male drag is pretty effin' fabulous as far as I'm concerned. I would be very sad if I did not have a partner who could love and appreciate my gender flexibility regardless of which side of the gender spectrum I felt like being on.
Your posts are really confusing because you treat sexual orientation and sexual identity as the same thing. They aren't. I'm male. I'm very much male. I'm also gay. A lesbian may be very much female, but gay. Another person (who has a penis) may be very effeminate, but be sexually attracted to people who have vaginas/breasts. And, to round things out, yet another person (who has a vagina) may be butch, but be sexually attracted to people who have penises (penii? what is the plural for schlong?)
Sexual orientation and sexual identity are not the same thing.
I'm not very good at English, but I though "sexual identity" was used in regards both to sexual orientation and gender identity? Also, being butch/effeminate isn't really about gender identity as much as gender role. You can be a "butch" transwoman that has a penis, for example. Or you can be an effeminate transman that has a vagina.
Lord Snow wrote:
about genetics vs. enviromental, I think the answear is kind of obvious. look around at the natural world. Humans are most comparable to other mammals, and homosexualty in those other species is scarce to the point of near non-existance.
No, it isn't. It's been observed in nearly 1500 species, and among some animals like elephants, dolphins, sheep and apes it is COMMON. Among asiatic elephants in captivity, about 45% of all sexual encounters are same-sex.
To me this whole question carries the implication of trying to "fix" homosexuality.
That is NOT why I asked it though. I strongly dislike anything related to "grading" sexualities, or "fixing" them. I'm perfectly satisfied with my sexual orientation and wouldn't want to change it even if I could, except possibly open up more for different age groups.
Thought I'd just clarify that.
I guess it's just curiosity, and that I don't like sexuality being simplified the way I felt Entreri's quote did.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
stringburka wrote:
I'm not very good at English, but I though "sexual identity" was used in regards both to sexual orientation and gender identity?
A lot of people DO use it that way. But those who study the more complicated issues of the LGBT community soon come to understand that they ARE two separate, if frequently intertwined factors in a person's makeup.
My spouse for example was born phsyiologically female. He identifies himself and is legally under New Jersey law classified as gender male. His sexual preferences however tend towards predominantly but not exclusively men.
Well, I wish you success. I thinkg though that when you talk about changing sexuality, you forget a very important option - you assume the homosexual or otherwise un-normal people would prefer to change it, when actualy many people would appreciate the oppurtunity to broaden their sexual orientaiton - out of curiosity or a need for equality.
Ayup. This.
Being cut off from having intimate, loving relationships with half the human race does not strike me as a good thing. In fact it seems like a pretty sad thing to me. If I could push a button and make myself pansexual, I'd be rolling my initiative and jumping for it quicker than a Hasted kender.
I don't give a flying reproductive attempt at a toroidal pastry executing linear circumlocution what the mundanes think. Equality is a good thing. Bigotry is stupidity. I don't live my life out of fear of what others may say or think. So yes, I would absolutely choose equality in my sexuality if I could.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Part of the problem is dismissing Bigotry as "stupidity". It isn't. it's a hardwired reflex built into the way our brains are constructed. It takes concious understanding, education, and a willingness to teach and learn to overcome an instinct which is as natural to us as breathing.
@ciretose and LazarX: Good points both. I live on the pretty radical edge of poly-LGBT-geek-BDSM culture, because it's how I'm fundamentally wired and who I am. It does tend to make me overly defensive about how mainstream society views my life and my loves, and it's much too easy for me to be dismissive of people who judge me negatively or who try to pass laws that hurt my friends and my community. In my experience, they do this mostly because they don't live that way and don't make the effort to understand why other people want or need to.
Not everyone has to make the same choices I do before I can respect them, but they do have to respect MY choices. If they don't, well, eff'em.
Primates seem to have the "green monkey" instinct built into their brains. If you take a popular monkey from its troupe and dye it green, making it visually different, it will be torn apart by its former peers on re-introduction. There certainly are functional and evolutionary reasons that the in-group/out-group social differentiation mechanism evolved.
I'd just like to be able to think that maybe we're a little bit better than monkeys, or that we can be if we try.
It also depends on what "green" means. If it means "pedophile" or "murderous sociopath", that's different from being LGBT. The first group inflict recognizable, identifiable harm on society. The second group doesn't.
Anti-equality bigots who rant about boogie-man harm to society that equality would create, but can't identify any actual harm are the people acting like primates. I'd have a lot more respect for anti-equality types if they could/would identify any actual harm equality would create.
I think you're missing the "switching" part. He's not talking about being pansexual or bisexual, but of changing back and forth.
It's not a bonus if you're randomly not attracted to your partner on some days.
There are days that monogamous heterosexual men and women don't feel all that attracted to their partners. In a healthy relationship, they deal with it, even if it is not okay for them to have other partners.
TMI:
If my partner randomly said, "I'm into male energy tonight" or "I'm into female energy tonight", this really isn't likely to be a problem for me. If I happen to be feeling the opposite gender energy strongly, either we wait, or he can enjoy some time with one of his other partners who is feeling that gender energy at that time.
As far as I can tell, people who are fluid in their sexuality pairing up with people who are fluid in their gender identity is a pretty workable thing. Bonuses if you're poly and can merrily send your partner off to his boyfriend.
Even more bonuses if I get to watch him with his boyfriend. :) But that's extra TMI for most people, I imagine.
I'm not very good at English, but I though "sexual identity" was used in regards both to sexual orientation and gender identity?
A lot of people DO use it that way. But those who study the more complicated issues of the LGBT community soon come to understand that they ARE two separate, if frequently intertwined factors in a person's makeup.
My spouse for example was born phsyiologically female. He identifies himself and is legally under New Jersey law classified as gender male. His sexual preferences however tend towards predominantly but not exclusively men.
I'm not sure I understand the terminology.
This is how I've used it:
For me, sexual orientation is who you are attracted towards. So he's straight, bi, heteroflexible or whatever he identifies as.
Gender identity is what gender you identify as. So your spouse is male.
I thought sexual identity was the combination of the above.
Are you saying that gender identity is the same thing as sexual identity? Or that it has to do with what gender-typical behaviour we have (as Darkwing Duck implied)?
It's just semantics I guess, but it's good to be on the same page so we understand what we are discussing.
Darkwing Duck wrote:
It also depends on what "green" means. If it means "pedophile" or "murderous sociopath", that's different from being LGBT. The first group inflict recognizable, identifiable harm on society. The second group doesn't.
While I basically agree, I would make a difference between pedophilia and being a murderer (or someone who tries to kill people), though. Not all pedophiles necessarily hurt other people, and I do think it's bad to stigmatize them for something they probably can't control (at least not to a large extent). As long as they do not live out their fantasies, I don't think it's good to "be after" them - in fact, I think the current pedophilia-hysteria that is going on at least in my country is counterproductive as it probably makes pedophiles afraid to seek aid in getting a decent life and controlling their urges.
Feeling alienated from society would probably increase the risk of them not caring enough to actually DO harm. This is all guesswork, but I don't think it's far-fetched and regardless I don't think we should punish people for fantasizing about doing bad stuff. I've fantasized about killing people quite a few times through my life, still I'm too peaceful to even properly defend myself when attacked (unfortunately).
I think you're missing the "switching" part. He's not talking about being pansexual or bisexual, but of changing back and forth.
It's not a bonus if you're randomly not attracted to your partner on some days.
There are days that monogamous heterosexual men and women don't feel all that attracted to their partners. In a healthy relationship, they deal with it, even if it is not okay for them to have other partners.
** spoiler omitted **
I see.
Some problems I have, however, is that it happens rather frequently and randomly. I would worry about it changing in the middle of sex, for example. I might end up not being attracted to people at all for long periods of time. I've gotten enough used to it that I can probably have sex with people I don't have any attraction to at all, although it'll still likely make me feel sick.
Something else is that I'm not always anthrophilic, although I usually have attractions to one thing or another. Sometimes it's food, or objects in general. Sometimes it's things that I don't think it'll be quite appropriate to discuss here.
Additionally, since it changes along with my gender, I won't always have the parts to really utilize my orientation. If I'm feeling the opposite gender, which is most of the time, I feel like I want sexual stuff as that gender.
Overall, however, I don't really have that much interest in sexual or romantic relations with other people most of the time. Maybe I just trained myself to feel that way, however.
I'd just like to be able to think that maybe we're a little bit better than monkeys
You must be hard wired for optimism...
*ducks*
I thought we were talking of humans and monkies, what do ducks have to do with anything?
@stringburka - I had no idea about the homosexuality in animals. That's defenitly *not* what the dude who gave me the tour in the zoo told me. Guess he didn't have a clue either. Thanks for sharing that, it was fascinating :)
I remembering that there are certain behaviorist techniques to basically change certain sexual preferences. This is usually done by clinical psychologists who have a client that is unhappy with the consequences of having some fetish or sexual choice that terribly depresses him and he wants fixed. Thing is, at least as far as my understanding of behaviorism goes, if you can extinguish a behavior in some fashion, than logically it is possible it instill it. Ergo, since it is possible to "swap" sexual orientations or preferences using behaviorist methods, than it is likely that they are first created due to a behaviorist principle. I mean, sex is a VERY strong reinforcer, so attach a random feeling of sexual desire in childhood with pretty much anything and in theory, boom, there you go, especially since those feelings are arbitrary and not well controlled before adolescence, being random and without purpose. HOWEVER, I don't think this is the whole story. Like most psychological concepts, it's probably a mix between nature and nurture. I.e., you have a genetic predisposition to be sexually attracted to person x, however, since this part of your anatomy has 10-13 years to develop, behavior-changing influences in the environment may very well make that genetic predisposition moot. On the other hand, certain events may "trigger" the predisposition as well. In other words, I think you can be more likely based on, well, a lot of things, but since the time periods we're talking about are long indeed (plenty of time for anything to happen, really) and the reinforcer is arguably one of the strongest in our biology, it seems pretty much random...
I'm probably wrong. Then again, this subject seems difficult to test or study in any setting that could give adequate, provable results, so *shrugs* I just ignore it and just assume its arbitrary and move on...
I've always seen sexuality in black and white, I'm just looking at a different picture than most people.
It isn't about gender for me. Sexual attraction has always been when one person is sexually attracted to another person.
I identify myself as straight largely because the only relationship I've ever been in (and have been for the past 9 years) is with my wife, but I'm entirely capable of being attracted to males. I can, and do, point out both attractive males and females to my wife.
When it comes to porn and attraction, I prefer some combination of both male and female, regardless of number of participants. All male and all female scenes don't really do as much for me, and this doesn't stem from homosexual stigma. It seems to be a matter of variety for me.
I don't know. The "issue" of sexual orientation has never seemed like any kind of issue worth caring about. If Person A and Person B are attracted to each other, it shouldn't matter what gender either is, or even if they both want to include Person C in their consenting sexual activities.
Meophist, your language in that post was concerning, bordering on suicidal.
Have you tried any hormone therapy or talked to a physician or psychologist about this?
I had a friend of mine who as gay that tried to take his own life rather than figure this out. Not a good option, in the long run.
You should come to terms with the idea that this is something that may not be cured (the shifts, not the orientation) but can be treated.
Meophist, your language in that post was concerning, bordering on suicidal.
Have you tried any hormone therapy or talked to a physician or psychologist about this?
I had a friend of mine who as gay that tried to take his own life rather than figure this out. Not a good option, in the long run.
You should come to terms with the idea that this is something that may not be cured (the shifts, not the orientation) but can be treated.
Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm suicidal. I don't think I am. I just frustrated, although possibly also a bit depressed.
I don't plan on taking my own life. That's something I told myself not to do. I'd rather live with pain than be dead with nothing.
I've been trying to find somebody for help. At the moment, I think I'm on a couple of waiting lists; one for a doctor(hopefully), and one for a counselor. I'm hoping I can reach results with one or the other.
I'm not expecting a cure. It would be nice, but understanding of sexuality seems to be limited enough at this stage that a cure is rather unlikely anytime soon.
I want something though, even if it's just acknowledgement from a professional. I'm not particularly happy the way things are right now, and I feel I've reached the limits of what I can do on my own.
I think my judgment may have been a bit lacking recently. Much of life have been feeling like a bit of a haze these last bit of a while. I'm not suicidal or anything, however.
