Hi ferri,
I agree the PC's fight the Cpt and other Major NPC'sHowever, when the PC's and 7 crew members boarded Whalebone's ship, there was no enemy crew to fight in the background. The monsters the PC's had to face "alone" where Whalebone and the zombies.
In this case how can this be avoided. I do not want to tell them: "you can't do it" because is their crew.
I just added a crew of 20 zombies for the crew to face, it worked fine. Then the Pc's and NPC face off with Whalebone and the 7 brine zombies (I also added a zombie Plugg as the navigator and a zombie scourge as his bodyguard)
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my concern is if the PC's decide to help the NPC's then I have to give additional XP...
It sounds like you are over-thinking things. The players do not know what is aboard an enemy ship, only the GM does. Even if the adventure says there is no crew for the NPCs to fight in the background, you can simply have a bunch of mooks clamber up from below deck up to engage the allied NPCs, effectively cutting them off from the PCs. It's really just that simple.
When it happens, just have the friendly NPCs shout, "We can hold our own against this lot, take down their captain before they hull our ship!"
If the players insist on trying to have their PCs fight mooks, then a few opportune sneak attacks on PCs by the enemy commander they are ignoring should get them back on track. If you want to make it even more poignant, have the enemy commander start slaughtering NPC members of the PC's crew while they themselves are busy preoccupied with enemies who are too far below their level to be a challenge.
If all else fails, talk to your players and inform them of your concerns.
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Solution is simple- try to use rules for onboard fight from Wayfinder 8- crew is still in background, but their influence for encounter is way over standard rules.
Any suggestions?
the crew so they are busy in the background.
Hmmm... my group actually LOVED to storm enemy ships on their own, never even trying to put their crew (too many valuable specialists) into harm's way, even, if possible protecting them with illusions and full-sized barriers made of hammocks along the side. Later on, the crew became easy targets, even if upgraded along leadership-lines (crew counting as 1st level with double warrior levels, other more specialised chars improving by level (and a quick modifier of +1+3 from Disrepute ). In the beginning, they had big problems even recruiting enough replacements after a serious fight (like the "Vorsfang" battle), where the enemy crew had used warmachines and x-bows for good effect
Too many AoE effects will decimate the crew or make them useless (Stinking Cloud, Fear, Confusion etc. being favourites here), leaving one in a quick conundrum of who is meant to sail your prizes and own vessel after the fight ? Magic is the great and terrible leveller in Pathfinder Sea-battles... where RL ships could fire a cannon around every 15 rounds (after a lot of training), here a set of fireballs can disperse dozens of crew (who cares if they actually manage their reflex saves, if the damage goes past 30-40 points ? they are dead,once they get into range... ) in one fifth the time.
After a time, when the ship reached "battle range", crew stayed covered by the hammock-raised railing, with some protection being raised for the helm
If you raise the crews level along with the players.... well, you might have a very very deadly (and unmanageable, from the GMing point of view) bunch of pirates once you make it to AP#6, ready to take over almost any settlement.
to "clarify"
My guys never had the crew fight at close quarters, usually only using them to sail the ship, serving the sole (magical) cannon - we played gunless - and firing salvoes of x-bows and comp-longbows... where we simply rolled for each 5-archer unit whether it his, then rolled 1D10 /2 for the number of missiles hitting. Enemy crew died at 4 arrows/bolts^^... usually a few showers of missile would sufficiently intimidate the opposition
"Close quarter assault" was only done by the PC group, striking "for the bridge". Only time this was not done was during the mutiny, because that way everybody showed their true colours and could be treated accordingly.
We only had a few major sea-battles, versus two Chelian/Corentyn corvettes (one of which was almost instantly sunk/burned to the waterline), one Chelian frigate, a Rahadoumi slave galley and Harrigan' flagship (we had a very different finale), who basically were the only "real opposition" there was. In each case : "Invasion by command crew", after shooting the stern or foremast away/out with the cannon.
Some Aspis Merchants/troopships were just summarily burned, at a distance. One Elven "lightclipper" (don't ask, a relic from another campaign) was fought over and started to warp out of the dimension (yeah, as I said, something so much different), leaving the party to quickly "dimension door"/swim away. So no, no real "sea-battles" against worthwhile foes. ever.
It suited them, but noone ever asked for large scale deck-battles. the 5' square-scale make that awkward, too.
And magic is just too powerful for eliminating crew, war machines won't hold up to it.
I would think the other crew would have ranged also in fact the listing for shipmate shows them with a composite longbows @ +2. Sounds almost as if that was a Vulcan "lightclipper"! Yeah, unless you have cannons it is hard to match the firepower of magic.
I would think the other crew would have ranged also in fact the listing for shipmate shows them with a composite longbows @ +2. Sounds almost as if that was a Vulcan "lightclipper"! Yeah, unless you have cannons it is hard to match the firepower of magic.
full cover = bane of missile weapons.
And yeah. cannons in Pathfinder fire slightly fast (but then again are light on damage^^)
I guess that would kind of depend on what ship rules you use and how many cannons. 162d10 from a broadside isn't exactly light on damage and that is just from a 4th class frigate!
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I think they've made enough holes in the rudder already, now they need Make Whole! ;)
I guess that would kind of depend on what ship rules you use and how many cannons. 162d10 from a broadside isn't exactly light on damage and that is just from a 4th class frigate!
Well, we played "gunless". Then, in reality, stronger-build ships would very much be adding hardness against each and every cannonball (ask the "USS Constitution" ). 12 pounders and even 18 pounders glanced off those sides, with only minimal damage.
Plus, if a group was running (and manning) a fully fight-capable fourth rate frigate ( I am not sure whether you are referring to the historical fourth rates frigates - rare and cumbersome that they were - of the Royal Navy or something from Razor Coast), that would mean a crew of up to 300 men. That is a full-scale man-o-war. Something that pirates AFAIK never actually deployed/owned ?
300 men or more to be fed, reimbursed with plunder, kept in shape and disciplined enough to man the guns in the heat of battle..
I don't know, does that sound like a fun campaign to run ?
Nevermind that an early fourth-rate could rather easily be outsailed, a later 19th century fourth rate (like "USS Constitution" or "HMS Leander") is not really "build yet" for a (renaissance era) pirate campaign ?
And yes, the broadside from something like the HMS Leander would readily wreck almost all merchantmen (in reality, probably in game, too). So 162D10 (hardness or no hardness( seem reasonable.. if you want to SINK your prey/prize^^
Any idea how many HP does the rudder has? PC's captured a ship w/the destroyed rudder (Event 12). They have Make Hole but it is 1d6/lvl.
70-80 HP?
They would need fabricate or something similar, I guess. "Make Whole", depends upon what is/was left off the rudder. After all, a destroyed rudder (or one off the pintels) would usually float away.
Generally we are talking a set of planks, 3-6" in diameter, between 6-12" tall and at least one foot wide, often more. Just do the math.
assuming 1' area, with 5 HP/inch of thickness - 15 to 30 Structural HP single foot of rudder, 30-60 for larger rudders... multiplied by the length of the rudder itself.
90+ HP as the minimum on a small sized vessel ? Stronger/harder Wood would add to the HP.
If you want to go ultra-realist, calculate for the coppersheating, and the structure of the pintles^^ (even I wouldn't go there)
for a decent explanation of age-of-sail rudders see
Hi Vikingson...thanks for the information.
On PFSRD I found that Wood has 10HP/inch. I'll crunch numbers.thanks again!!!!!!!
Right, just noted I simply added the hardness instead of looking precisely (too many screens in the office, and some actually want to maintain a workflow^^).
*foolish me*Hmm, that might actually be a nice (if expensive ) enchantment for a (war-)ship in Pathfinder : "Force wall" rudder.
In addition to the standard "fire resist" and whatever else enchantments.
Not sure how you would shape or control such a rudder though.
The ship I am referring to is from Razor's Coast and has a full ship's complement of under 200 men. The Bonadeuce's Pride is but 10' wider than the Filthy Lucre and the same length so the ships are comparable. It is only that FASB assumes that 3x as many crew are needed to sail a ship, 60 for a sailing ship. The Hurricane King is anything but gunless and has plenty of magic to back it up. I think the 2 ships would be a fair fight.
Getting back on topic, all the sudden my S&S game has become very popular! It has gone from being hard to have more than three players for the last month or two to now seven have RSVPed for next week. Looks like I will have to bump up the encounters for awhile. Good thing they have 2 ships now.
Cojonuda: Depending on how the player wishes to disable the rudder, I'd say Tricky or Difficult. Freezing the water around it with magic could disable it with no check at all, whereas screwing clamps onto it so that can no longer pivot mostly requires time rather than skill. Likewise, attaching a drag device to the rudder (to make it extremely difficult to turn) might be pretty simple to accomplish with magic or the right tools. Now if they want to disable it in such a way that the ship always turns hard to port/starboard, that might require some more ingenuity since it would be difficult to conceal if the ship is underway or if the helm/tiller is being attended.
The challenging aspect of disabling a rudder (without destroying it) would be getting to it. If the ship was underway, then staying near it would also prove challenging. However, those difficulties are somewhat separate from the actual disable device check and might be better represented thru swim and stealth checks (to approach) and maybe even a climb check with no chance to take 10/20 (for a swift-moving vessel).
If you make it non-operational then you are back to the problem of the ship in event 12. Reality states that you are going to need a dry dock to replace it and the ship will probably have to be towed. Make whole may or may not work depending on a dm call. The rudder being jammed by a lucky torpedo hit was what doomed the Bismarck as it could not properly maneuver and had to make for Brest. It was an easy mark once found.
Solution is simple- try to use rules for onboard fight from Wayfinder 8- crew is still in background, but their influence for encounter is way over standard rules.
I did just this for our last gaming session and it worked like a charm! :D Great advice!
I would presume that unless one of the PCs blows on the conch shell and the tojanida in area D17 disperses the swarm, it would attack yes.
Pilk is a breath taker not a brine zombie so no, he is not staggered. I see nothing in Dead Man's Chest to suggest they do not get a full move. I have the newly released Pathfinder version.
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Laithoron...thanks. Most likely the players will think in the line of making the rudder not operational at all :)
Classic trick (European pirates) was to disable the rudder by soldering the pivots/hinges with hot lead/tin (pretty silent). Or ram/batter metal wedges into the gap between the rudder and the sternpost (muc louder, but faster.
If the ship is underway though, getting into place and remain stable enough to work will be the sort of "Fast and Furious " movie action in its naval incarnation. Or sneaking up at nightBest way - sonic attack spell with an AoE-effect (much harder to find without resorting to the 3.5E "Spell Compendium")
A source I decided not to use. The problem with it unlike it's predecessors was that it did not show any of the original sources of the spells so as a DM you had to pick through them to see what you would and would not allow. Just easier to not allow the Compendium, a great source for players and a lousy one for DMs.
To me it would have to be one heck of a lucky shot to be able to hit the rudder on a moving ship, magically or otherwise and would require a stealth approach while it is not moving.
A source I decided not to use. The problem with it unlike it's predecessors was that it did not show any of the original sources of the spells so as a DM you had to pick through them to see what you would and would not allow. Just easier to not allow the Compendium, a great source for players and a lousy one for DMs.
hmmm, maybe we have the advantage that different players GM at different times, and hence, there seems to be a pretty wide consensus onto which spells are not going to be used from the SC, and which could conceivably be researched or found ( a steady series of quests erupt from this - any spell in the SC is considered rare - and very valuable , and needs to be found, often in very specific circumstances or be researched with a very high DC - right now it is 22+ 2x spell level). And there are a very great number of spells in it wonderfully aimed at GM use^^
In an emergency : hit the stern with a fireball, energy substituted to acid with Elemental Spell Feat. Also available in metamagic rods^^
Cojonuda: It would be more efficient to post general rules questions like this in the Rules Questions forum since it's not specific to this adventure path. You're likely to get a much more thorough answer there.
At any rate, my answer is:
1) A 'magic item' has to be special created using an item creation feat. Just because something lights up under Detect Magic does not make it a 'magic item'.
2) That said, since Secret Page has activatable aspects to it (i.e. a command word), I'd personally allow a UMD check using the same DC as for activating true magic items with similar activation methods.
I would just post the question up the Tempest Rising forum as the Letters of Marque itself is specific to that. To me if you are going to allow UMD it would need to emulate the casting of both required spells. The question would be how would you know it was there besides feint magic? That could be almost anything.
I ran the encounter with the Devil's Pallor tonight and the party attacked with both of their ships. They took out Svard and stopped the Sea Chanty from getting away. Upon finding out that they were Sargavian the captain and crew elected to repair her ship and escort her to Bloodcove and let them go in an attempt to gain favor with Sargava. This could play well later. However as they stocked up on rations and water I could not use needing fresh water to set up the Dominator encounter so I will have to run it later. I ran the first two nights of For Whom the Bell Tolls instead and broke for the night.
My group has done a good job at recruiting new crew and are at around 75 now.
Sent you a PM re the maps, etc. Yeah, I have allowing them to recruit in the ports as well as from the crews, but not many at any one location.
Hmm... players never had more than app. 50 men under their control (in the whole campaign) with NPC/people drifting on and off. Main fighting force : the characters themselves. Also recruiting in one harbour depleted the pool of "possible compatriots" there and then, and everyone was extra- wary of not hiring possible Chelian agents.
Also - never taking more than one extra ship under their command, usually. They might simply have feared another "Mutiny" moment from one of the sub-ordinates. Shifty pirates and all !
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In the beginning of the book, in "Adventure Background", what's a good way to relate this info to the PCs?
I'm thinking about taking out the factor of Inkskin dying no matter what. My idea is that if she survives, she's going to use her information as a bargaining chip for her freedom.
My thoughts are as follows: If she lives or surrenders, she can keep her map obscured with her tattoo familiar. Her father was the Ancient Mariner, who sailed under Capt. Wolfe a generation ago, as opposed to hundreds of years ago and had her, his young daughter, on board with him. Capt. Wolfe betrayed her father and left him for dead with his treasure horde, then having no use for Inkskin, sold her to the Tian pirate and her story progresses as written from there. Years later Krellort "enslaves" her again. She wants free of everyone and uses this as her chance to recover her father's body and get free of Krellort by pitting the PCs against them.
So, if the capture her, and agree to her terms, she'll deliver the exposition dump about Mancatcher Cove and the treasure and reveal her map. She'll deliver her backstory for sympathy. Her card in the hole is she knows about the Canopy Creeper. The Thresher under Gripe had a pre-arranged plan to track the PCs to the Cove. When the Creeper attacks, Inkskin offers an ultimatum: free her and she'll command the Thresher to help the PCs fight off the Creeper. Leave her prisoner and they face the Creeper alone. Real game bonus, freeing Inkskin reduces crew casualties to the Creeper. She may also come back as a black-hearted and ruthless pirate who owes the PCs and may join their armada against the Chelish in the last book. Thoughts?
On the other hand, should she get killed, proceed as written, but who'd be a good person to deliver the exposition dump regarding Wolfe's treasure?
Hmm... players never had more than app. 50 men under their control (in the whole campaign) with NPC/people drifting on and off. Main fighting force : the characters themselves. Also recruiting in one harbour depleted the pool of "possible compatriots" there and then, and everyone was extra- wary of not hiring possible Chelian agents.
Also - never taking more than one extra ship under their command, usually. They might simply have feared another "Mutiny" moment from one of the sub-ordinates. Shifty pirates and all !
I'm making NPCs to join the crew. They just reached 20, about a week out of Rickety Squibs. The majority of my players and myself prefer to have characters on the ship who can offer more interesting drama and interactions instead of just a number of henchmen. My other purpose with doing it this way is to create some real repercusions for pirating when crew they like die. Make them choose their battles. I think doing it this way, however, crew would always be on the smaller side.
The players faced off against Pilk tonight and were one round from losing their captain. They had 2 ships and six players so I gave them extra zombies to face. The wizard tried hitting him with an aqueous orb and it was pretty ineffective against him and did more damage to the party fighter. He just teleported himself next to her when she rolled him off the side of the ship with it. The Halfling rog/sor figured out there was something going on with the bell when one of the zombies held back and defended it. She kept hitting it with acid splash until it melted, no more Pilk! The nor'easter was well timed and with our own storm coming in we decided to call the game a bit early so that people could get home before it got bad out.
It is in Tempest Rising, p 72. Was reading it last night. There is also the rules in Dead Man's Chest.
You may also want to check out Fire As She Bears, which has some really good rules for naval combat, ship-building, storms, etc. I'm finding it to be a more robust and handy ruleset than what is scattered throughout this AP and other assorted rulebooks.