At the top of the special material rules: "If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material."
If you make it out of mithral, how are you going to make it into a gold or silver chainmail?
Groovy. So just make the "most prevalent material" mithril. Don't make it out of gold or silver. Where is the issue here?
I'd like you to provide some rules, that actually points to the matter with specific items.
I'm sorry, Herald, but you are the one with the burden of proof here. You are the one stating that Specific Armors have some other rule than the ones listed in the Special Materials section. You are the one who is going to need to provide that, not me. Otherwise it works exactly the same for Specific Armors as it does for anything else. You are attempting to insinuate some rule that does not exist.
Mithral Full Plate of Speed and make it into adamantium.
I didn't bring this up but since you did... Sure. Why not?
Celestial Armor is not so simple, as it isn't just an ability granted to an item, but a set of bonusses, which the rules doesn't not allow us to calculate a price for. Just tacking that on to any other item is not as straight forward.
It isn't that simple? Why? Here is the thing. It IS a set of abilities granted to an item and that item can be made of Mithril the same way any other item that is made mostly of metal can be.
Would you also not allow a player to further enchant Celestial Armor to make it +4? Why? Why not? By what rules?
Modifying premade magic items exist in a somewhat undefined area of the rules. While this shouldn't stop us from doing it anyway, it does stop us from being able to claim taht this or that is RAW, just because developers haven't spent space to disallow it.
Thats just it though, isn't it. The modification of items IS defined in the rules. There is an entire section on it. But we aren't even talking about modifying the magic, we are talking about changing the material that it is made out of. That is also defined in the rules. I posted it. It is in the Special Materials section of the rules. Scroll up to see it.
The developers have stated that certain specific items (such as Celestial Armor) have unique pricing and thus are not subject to normal pricing rules.
- Gauss
Thanks for the info. I must admit, this entry was from before my times on the boards.
Thank you for the quote post, Gauss. Nothing there seems to disallow it being made out of Mithril either. It specifically says that it is not defaultly made of Mithril debunking claims that the Mithril is already included. The first part was talking about how it is worn AS light armor which doesn't require Medium Armor Proficiency the same way that Mithril Chain Mail would. It spells out that this is due to magical properties, not the material it is made out of.
The second part is talking about pricing. Nothing really applicable to this discussion.
Also, while James Jacobs is a great guy he will be the first to tell anyone that he is not a rules guy. In fact, he has several times in the past. He isn't a developer.
He actually did state (in two different posts) that it was made of silver and gold. While he has stated that he is not a rules guy and thus makes mistakes on occassions he is still the most vocal of the Paizo staff and Im guessing he talks to his co-workers far more than we do. Until I hear something to the contrary or there is a clear statement in the rules where he is shown to be incorrect I would prefer to take his word on things.
- Gauss
But its the magical enchantments that make the celestial armor what it is, making it out of mithril just makes it mithril chainmail so you end up losing armor and max dex.
The developers have stated that certain specific items (such as Celestial Armor) have unique pricing and thus are not subject to normal pricing rules.
It is definately priced differently than normal items but it can be reverse engineered to find out how much it costs to add those properties to that kind of armor. There is even precident for those properties existing on different armor. This pricing is also differnt.
None of this changes anything that I have said. The fact that the pricing is different has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it can be made Mithril or not.
He actually did state (in two different posts) that it was made of silver and gold.
That is correct, Gauss. The armor presented there is made out of silver and gold. And the Special Materials section shows how to make armor out of Mithril. Whats the problem?
He also stated that it was the magic that made the armor have the properties that it did. Not the material it is made out of. He did not state that if it was made out of different material that it wouldn't also gain the benefits of that material. He stated only that the properties that it gained were independant of the material it was made out of.
I dont think anyone is disagreeing whether or not you can make mithril chainmail. So I guess you are wanting to add mithrils bonus for max dex to celestial armor?? If thats the case I wouldnt think that would work due to stacking issues. Mithril is a natural property and the celestial armor is an enchantment property.
Would you also not allow a player to further enchant Celestial Armor to make it +4? Why? Why not? By what rules?
Sure I would. Not that the rules tell me how to do it, since the pricing is off for specific items. But in this case, I would just take the cost difference between enhancement bonusses.
I wouldn't however allow the effects of a celestial armor to be thrown onto any armor a player would like, just because it is the optimal choice. IMO it moves quite close to cheese, when you try to find each small grey zone in the rules, and use them to gain abilities or effects that a far more powerful than others.
Don't you think you interpretation can lead to the ridiculous?
The dragonhide gianthide example I gave in the beginning of this discussion, is as much valid per your ruling as a mithral celestial armor. Another nice item, if you ignore the baseline of specific items, is making a Greater Slaying Greatsword, when you got the 100k gp, who wouldn't spend it to deal +100 damage or instant-kill with each attack you make.
He actually did state (in two different posts) that it was made of silver and gold.That is correct, Gauss. The armor presented there is made out of silver and gold. And the Special Materials section shows how to make armor out of Mithril. Whats the problem?
He also stated that it was the magic that made the armor have the properties that it did. Not the material it is made out of. He did not state that if it was made out of different material that it wouldn't also gain the benefits of that material. He stated only that the properties that it gained were independant of the material it was made out of.
If you want to have a boring RAW answer, the solution is to look at the chain of events:
- You make an chainmail out of mithral: It has +6 AC, +4 max dex bonus, -2 armor check penalty.
- You enhance this armor, making it into an celestial armor: A celestial armor (+3) has +9 AC, +8 max dex bonus, -2 armor check penalty.
Eg. you can do it, but without effect, as enhancements are added to an existing item, and the celestial armor enhancement bonus grants fixed abilities instead of modying existing ones.
Lune, Im heading to bed so I wont be able to continue this discussion. However, I will end on this note: it is your game, run it how you want. I however already think the Celestial Armor is broken enough as is. I won't be allowing one of my players to break it further by adding mithril to it to boost the max dex bonus even higher.
And Lune, since you decided to bring 3.5 items (Celestial Plate is a 3.5 era item) in as precedence I present the following:
You cannot reverse engineer the pricing on Celestial Armor. It simply cannot be built from scratch. Too much of it is custom. Thus here is why:
Example:
Chainmail = 150
+3 enhancement with a +4 max dex increase (nimbleness property from magic item compendium taken 4 times) = +7effective = 49000gp
Fly = 5400 (assuming straight pricing 3*5*1800/(5/1) )
Mithril equivalence in weight and armor check penalty = 4000
Superior Arcane Spell Failure (mithril would be 20%, CA is 15%) = ?
Total price: 150+49000+5400+4000 = 58550 without the superior arcane spell failure, perhaps as a tradeoff to not losing the -2armor check penalty.
Now, I do not ascribe to that pricing. But that is just ONE example of possible pricing to come up with a similar item. I do not use nor allow 3.5 era items in my games but since you opened that pandora's box I went with it.
Anyhow, as I said earlier. Its your game. Do with it what you will.
- Gauss
I dont think anyone is disagreeing whether or not you can make mithril chainmail. So I guess you are wanting to add mithrils bonus for max dex to celestial armor?? If thats the case I wouldnt think that would work due to stacking issues. Mithril is a natural property and the celestial armor is an enchantment property.
That is exactly what I'm saying. And the rules specifically allow for that "stacking". You are allowed to stack material properties with magically enhanced ones. That is why you are allowed to make a +1 Mithril Breastplate for instance. It gets all the properties of the Mithril and all of the properties that the +1 gives it. They "stack".
I wouldn't however allow the effects of a celestial armor to be thrown onto any armor a player would like, just because it is the optimal choice. IMO it moves quite close to cheese, when you try to find each small grey zone in the rules, and use them to gain abilities or effects that a far more powerful than others.
Ah, well at least we are moving forward from "not RAW!" into "cheese!".
...a bunch of stuff I never suggested but you are insinuating that I did...
I'll not fall into your slippery slope arguement. You present a strawman arguement. I made no such claims. However, if we are going to follow your slippery slope arguement then I would also have to assume that you wouldn't allow Banded Mail to be made out of Dragonhide as it specifically calls out in it's description that it is made of metal.
I already gave a specific example where they applied the properties of Celestial Armor to an entirely different set of armor. One that, I should point out, does not have any gold in it.
Gauss, the quote I used was from Pathfinder, not 3.5. If you would have bothered to check the link you would have seen it.
Section 15: Copyright Notice - Pathfinder 11: Skeletons of Scarwall
Pathfinder 11: Skeletons of Scarwall. Copyright 2008, Paizo Publishing LLC. Author: Greg A. Vaughan
How'd I guess you were going to do that Lune? That IS a 3.5 era item. Pathfinder was making 3.5 era items for a year or two before they switched to 3.P. Check the publication date...2008? Thus it is 3.5.
- Gauss
P.S. Anyhow, bedtime (I was just wondering if you were going to do that).
I was not talking about adding additional enchantments, I was referring to stacking like affects which is still not allowed as far as i know. It would be like taking improved critical longsword and using a +1 keen longsword. they both do the same thing but one is a natural effect (training) and the other is an enchantment effect.
So whats your point in that? It was still written by the same people. Do you think that would have changed the price? Does that somehow change that you are not able to apply those properties to another set of armor? I would point out that apparently the Paizo folks disagree. They disagreed in 2008 and they disagree now.
And whether you think that Celestial Armor is broken or not has absolutely no bearing on RAW. It really boils down to what blackbloodtroll said:
I am not trying to sound snarky, but "I just don't like it" seems to be a good enough reason for some to declare it not RAW or unbalanced.
I don't like that mentality and I don't like the attitude that comes along with it. But hey, if you want to houserule against something you don't like in RAW in your home game, more power to ya.
I was not talking about adding additional enchantments, I was referring to stacking like affects which is still not allowed as far as i know. It would be like taking improved critical longsword and using a +1 keen longsword. they both do the same thing but one is a natural effect (training) and the other is an enchantment effect.
Like effects stack just peachy if they do not come from the same source or have the same named bonus. They even stack if they do have the same named bonus in some circumstances (such as dodge). This, however, has nothing to do with what we are talking about here.
I already gave a specific example where they applied the properties of Celestial Armor to an entirely different set of armor. One that, I should point out, does not have any gold in it.
Actually you didn't... Celestial Plate workes differently than Celestial Armor, since the max dex bonus is only raised from +1 to +6, compared to from +2 to +8. This does not suggest applying the effects directly to something else, but creating a similar item which has been adjusted to fit balance or whatever.
My former question wasn't actually a strawman. I didn't claim that your want to allow extreme examples. I was merely curious as to where you feel the line should be drawn?
However I still miss seeing an argument from you that actually moves beyond "Mithril can used to make metal armors" ergo "I can make a celestial armor out of mithral, ignoring the specifics".
My problem is that unless your arguments move beyond that, we don't get much further than a allowing those changes that isn't expressly disallowed.
If you don't want to relate to a slippery slope argument, then your claim should hold arguments that go beyond "A leads to B". I raise objections, when you make RAW-claims based on the absence of rules. Otherwise the other claims can be made as validly as yours.
As already stated, I don't have any problems making changes to the existing rules. Most often I'd go with my interpretaion of RAI or simply the rule-of-cool. If I thought a Mithral Celestial Plate wasn't a terrible idea, I would allow for a player. But I wouldn't try to argue that the rules supported it, when they didn't really do it.
It has plenty to do with this situation. Celestial armor is a particular base item (silver or gold) mixed with magical enchantments, making it an exceptional suit of armor. There is already an example of what you get when making mithril chainmail its Elven Chain, and thats not going to be as good as Celestail armor. What would you get by trying to add the Celestial armor "bonuses" to Elven Chain, I would guess maybe just Celestial armor cause the enchantments change the base materials.
HeraldKlak, I do not plan on defending claims that I did not make. As much as I'm sure you would like me to so that you can tear them down it isn't happening. You made the claims, defend them or tear them down yourself. They have nothing to do with what I said.
I do not need to give specific rules for how Special Materials apply to Specific Armors. It applies the same way it does to everything else. You are the one making the claim that it does not. You are the one that has the burden of proof. Not me. Support your claim with rules.
I would guess maybe just Celestial armor cause the enchantments change the base materials.
And I would guess* that by applying the same magical properties to Mithril that it would change the properties of that metal by the same amount it changed the gold and silver.
*Actually, I don't have to guess because it says right in the Special Materials section what making something out of Mithril does.
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So whats your point in that? It was still written by the same people. Do you think that would have changed the price? Does that somehow change that you are not able to apply those properties to another set of armor? I would point out that apparently the Paizo folks disagree. They disagreed in 2008 and they disagree now.
And whether you think that Celestial Armor is broken or not has absolutely no bearing on RAW. It really boils down to what blackbloodtroll said:
I am not trying to sound snarky, but "I just don't like it" seems to be a good enough reason for some to declare it not RAW or unbalanced.I don't like that mentality and I don't like the attitude that comes along with it. But hey, if you want to houserule against something you don't like in RAW in your home game, more power to ya.
I believe you misunderstood me, I am claiming the opposite, I agree with you. The "I just don't like it" is often the core of some people arguing points, which is a terrible argument against facts.
I know you agreed with me. The mentality of "I just don't like it" equating to "its not RAW" is what I dislike. I'm agreeing with you. ;)
I do not need to give specific rules for how Special Materials apply to Specific Armors. It applies the same way it does to everything else. You are the one making the claim that it does not. You are the one that has the burden of proof. Not me. Support your claim with rules.
I was actually not trying to tear you argument apart with that question. I was simply hoping we could find some common ground.
But, when you want my claim supported by rules, I'll just repeate my former argument on the chain of events:
A) You make an item.
B) You enchant it.
Since Celestial Armor grants specific abilities instead of modifying them, it doesn't matter whether or not it is made from mithral.
I do not need to give specific rules for how Special Materials apply to Specific Armors. It applies the same way it does to everything else.
If you believe this ^ than you know your answer, 2 special materials dont stack. You either have magically enchanted silver or gold armor or you have mithril chainmail.
Since Celestial Armor grants specific abilities instead of modifying them, it doesn't matter whether or not it is made from mithral.
...which is different from any other enchanted item that is made of Mithril for what reason?
Alrandor: It does not gain the magical properties from what it is made out of. The magic changes the material to give it the properties it has. Is there some reason you believe that it would not change Mithril by the same amount it changes gold and silver?
because silver or gold dont make good armor thats why they used magical enchantments, mithril on the other hand is awesome. Its light strong and flexable.
Woah ... hehehe. i went to sleep and woke up to this.
Well, if specific armor is made of some specific metal in this case silver and gold, if you changed that specific metal to mithral, would it still be the same specific item ? I think not. Ridiculous example, but i just woke up, so i can't think of any normal ones, if you took a gold fish, removed its scales and added different color scales, would it still be a gold fish or something else ?
While there are no rules that disallow Mithral Celestial Armors specifically, there are no rules that allow it. And i am not talking about Creating Magic Item Rules, cause with those rules, you can't make Celestial Armor, i am talking about Modifying Specific Items Rule.
As for why i still don't take Celestial Armor anyway, well, cause its bad mojo, my DM would interpret that as cheese and than we would get into an argument that would be a lengthy one, where in the end it would boil down to "No, you are a Tiefling you can't wear Celestial Armor". All through by logic and common sense, my Evil Tiefling would do it, cause i don't remember cramping a style is higher priority to survival, which is somewhat a purpose of magic items.
Ya sorry this advice thread turned into a rules thread i think lol.
I do not need to give specific rules for how Special Materials apply to Specific Armors. It applies the same way it does to everything else. You are the one making the claim that it does not. You are the one that has the burden of proof. Not me. Support your claim with rules.
I was actually not trying to tear you argument apart with that question. I was simply hoping we could find some common ground.
But, when you want my claim supported by rules, I'll just repeate my former argument on the chain of events:
A) You make an item.
B) You enchant it.Since Celestial Armor grants specific abilities instead of modifying them, it doesn't matter whether or not it is made from mithral.
I agree with this, though I do think debating RAW and RAI is like discussing religion, you can take what you want from it if you choose to read it like that.
Developers have stated that specific items are not meant to be modified like other items since they are more complex it doesn't jive well. I suppose it means that for PFS play modification will not be allowed, the developers do support houserules to make the game your own though.
IMO having a celestial armor +5 made out off mithral is not meant to be made using the core rules, I use common sense mixed with some RAW and RAI to come to that conclusion, just using RAW is seldom as objective as people make it out to be since it allows for much interpretation and RAW never will be able to cover every single aspect of the game.
Yeah, gold does suck, but it is a material just like any other.
I can agree there but if your where gonna replace the gold with mithril than you would have to decide what the base stats for gold chainmail would be and then add mithril to that and then play with enchantments.
Since Celestial Armor grants specific abilities instead of modifying them, it doesn't matter whether or not it is made from mithral....which is different from any other enchanted item that is made of Mithril for what reason?
Which is different, because any 'normal' enchantments are added to an existing item. If you have an armor made of mithral, enchanting it add effects to it on top of those it got in itself.
So we are looking at a base +4 armor bonus no and -6 acp all else basically the same. mithril would make that +4 armor +6 max dex -4 acp. and the enchantments you need at least a +5 to get armor bonus back up, and i guess like guass said add 4 times nimbleness but that still only puts you at +8 max dex
reading the item stats, it sounds like a suit of chainmail given mithral properties then enchanted up to be honest.
The gold and silver thing is the fluff.
Ya i'm not sure but i think the point was to push the max dex as high above +8 as possible.
And dont get me wrong i on occasion will make unique items based of pre-existing items. But if you wanna follow RAW this one is gonna get really expensive trying to get the max dex just back up to what CA was before it was mod'ed.
Developers have already spoken that a armored kilt can be mithral. In fact, the combo is needed when you add an armored kilt to light mithral armor to still count as light armor.Adding a mithral armored kilt to a mithral chain shirt makes the combo medium armour.
Sure, the armored kilt can be made of mithral. But that doesn't make it "not armour".
Your houserule makes the mithral armoured kilt a "must-have" item for every light & medium armoured character. That's bad from a game balance & design point of view.
Armoured kilt is generally bad for game balance :-)
But at the time the question was adressed, as far as I remember, the point was: light armor + kilt = medium. Making the combination in mithral makes it light.
It isn't that much different than choosing a mithral medium armor instead, since you'll still need the proficiency for medium.
Mithril Celestial armor has a +10, Mithril Celestial Full-Plate (as seen in the Curse of the Crimson Throne book 5... at least the Celestial Plate is anyway) will probably get you the biggest bang for your buck. With that and Armor Training, you don't even need proficiency with it, because it has no ACP, and it counts as light armor.
Developers have stated that specific items are not meant to be modified like other items since they are more complex it doesn't jive well.
Where did they say this?
It has already been stated by developers that it is not mithral.
You mean by James Jacobs (not a developer).
Mithril Celestial armor has a +10
+10 what, max dex?? it would only have that if you applied the mithril trait after the celestial armor was created which wouldnt make sense.
Mithril Celestial armor has a +10+10 what, max dex?? it would only have that if you applied the mithril trait after the celestial armor was created which wouldnt make sense.
Why couldn't you make a suit of mithril armor into a Celestial armor? This stuff is obviously crafted by mortals, so why couldn't you make it out of better materials than silver or gold? Also, wouldn't it be possible to create a transmutation spell (or perhaps use one that already exists) to make it mithril?