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Because it's the internet. If we had all these conversations face-to-face, you can bet they'd be a hell of a lot move civil and productive
There are plenty of instances where some of us have enjoyed both interpretations of a rule, or playing style, and mention so in a thread. It's just that those posts are surrounded by otherwise bad behavior.
The whole thing reminds me of my favorite gaming shirt.
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It's more important to bring the DM to tears than anything else.
Isn't the whole point of roleplay games (and most games of any sort) to have fun?
It's more important to be right if it's about whether it's safe to drink the milk in the fridge or when i'm balancing my checkbook. When i'm playing PF, whether I be DM or PC, my primary goal is to have fun. I'd blatantly disregard rules and balance if it makes the game more fun (though usually it doesn't).
Unfortunately some people can only have fun when they're being right.
But what if being right IS fun?!
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When studying religion it is often deamed important what the word "love" means. Agape, fatherly love, is diferent than say Amore, or spousal love.
So you see, when you get a bunch of folks who all worship the rules of a thing and constantly examine it, it often loses its fun and loving nature and turns to heated debate about who is right about what kind of love was mentioned.
If you do not understand how this relates to this thread, god love ya.
Actually this topic reminds me of the roleplay vs rollplay train of thought. Neither one has to exclude the other.
Yes oh great and powerful one as we all know or soon shall your vile malevolence is both right in all things and is full of joy for those who embrace your power.
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I still finding saying "it's the internet" as a valid reason. It assumes that a person cannot stop himself from acting and posting a certain way. I'm all for a debate yet if I'm acting like a jerk or another poster is well I can't or the other person should be called out on it. Even if it is the internet. I'm not saying we should all be saints yet too often the onterent is imo used as an excuse to engage in bad behavior.
I assure you Kthulu, I seek out potential abuses for entirely benevolent reasons. Any good GM heads off such douchebaggery before it lands smack in the middle of their table.
RD is taking the Abraham Lincoln approach to rules. "The best way to revoke a bad law is to enforce it vigorously."
...Well...Yes and no, AD. I don't really "enforce them" so much as "expand peoples' awareness of them." If it gets thrown out there, people can more readily see the ridiculousness of them, and thereby avoid them in their own games/strive to make their home games better.
I still finding saying "it's the internet" as a valid reason. It assumes that a person cannot stop himself from acting and posting a certain way. I'm all for a debate yet if I'm acting like a jerk or another poster is well I can't or the other person should be called out on it. Even if it is the internet. I'm not saying we should all be saints yet too often the onterent is imo used as an excuse to engage in bad behavior.
It scales back from worst to least the less anonymous you can be.
Anonymous blog comments? Absolutely the worst trash talking ever.
Pseudonym post? Almost as bad (potential for banning curbs some of the worst).
Anonymous call over the phone? Pretty bad, but having to hear the emotion in your target's voice kicks in some of that sympathetic/empathic reaction and cuts down on the pure jerkiness. A lot stills gets through though.
Phone call to someone who has your info? Sudden drop in jerkiness. Delusions of victimization can make people feel justified in being rude, but "fear of being caught" combined with hearing emotive responses can cut a lot of that down. As long as they haven't dehumanized the person they are calling.
Face to face interactions? Well, as long as they haven't completely dehumanized their target (racism or "you are just a peon for the company"), there's far, FAR less outright vitriol. And it's not just fear of repercussions; a lot of it is simply recognizing the other person is "just like them" and doesn't necessarily deserve the attack.
Anonymity is almost like alcohol, they are both a release of inhibitions. It's for that reason that I find it hard to tell if, deep down, we are really horrific animals, or if the lack of sympathetic interactions lets us treat each other as badly (or even indifferently) as we would say... crushing an ant we don't want in our house.
Not that this ties directly towards the "I must be RIGHT" part of the original post topic. But I feel the level of anonymity can create an environment where the disregard of other's opinions and especially feelings can cause people to fight tooth and nail on such a subject.
Off-topic fellas. Get back on track or go elsewhere.
I honestly think it has more to do with the nature of the PF messageboards than the gamers. As others have already said, most people on the boards agree with the fundamental tenet, "In your own home game, do whatever you want. Fun always trumps rules. In PFS games, rules trump fun." (Oooh -- I'm going to get spanked for that one!)
But when someone posts here, they're basically looking for input on a question. All of a sudden, there are 30-40 opinions, and many of them will be diametrically opposed. And there's where the problem begins.
In an ideal world, each person would post an exact, perfect description of their stance once, the original poster would read all of these positions, and have a much better idea how to come to a final decision. Unfortunately, it's impossible to state your position perfectly, so as you see other posters saying things, you come up with other ideas and you want to respond to those, so you post multiple times with subtle nuances.
Even more unfortunately, there is a fundamental human nature in the "desire to be right". If another poster posts something you disagree with, your immediate reaction is, "I must convince this person that my interpretation is better." I've worked in peer-reviewed fields for 21 years now, and it still hurts when I produce something that I think is near-ideal, and someone says, "No. I don't like it. Rewrite that portion of it." I can swallow my pride and do it, but it's not fun. So if I can't be taught to allow others to have their own opinions in 21 years, either I'm very thick, or there's something fundamentally human about trying to convince others to come around to your way of thinking.
The final issue is one of hostility. The anonymous nature of message forums allows people to be far more aggressive than they would in a personal interaction, so you get far more confrontational posts. Instead of a simple, "Well, this is my interpretation, and this is why I believe it's the correct one," we have, "This is why you're wrong. I can't believe you're so uneducated." I do really enjoy the message boards, and most of the threads remain civil, but RAW, alignment, and religion threads can get nasty fast. (I'm usually relieved when I post my opinion and everyone ignores it -- I figure the OP will see it, and that's kind of the point of the whole thing).
Anyway, gotta go build something...
Hilariously enough, I've just entered my RAW argument. Should have stuck with building the aquarium...
Should I be concerned that I've posted to 3 threads today, and Ross has had to clean up all three of them? Maybe I'll just be quiet and enjoy the eclipse this afternoon...
*EDIT* -- Oops! Should probably clarify that it wasn't MY posts that were deleted... I just seem to have chosen some mightily incendiary threads this morning...