So I'm looking to make a tall brutish half-orc character that wields a giant two-handed greataxe/greatsword. I'm gonna take the titan mauler archetype, and at level six I'll be using an Ogre sized greatweapon at no penalties.
Furthermore, Since he's using a weapon such immense size (and later the weapon will get bigger) I was going to go down the vital strike path, and maximize damage through single massive swings instead of multiple ones.
Now, my question is, after level 6, I was thinking of dipping into 3 levels of fighter with the Two-handed weapon archetype. This allows me to add double my strength bonus to single swings. After which I'd go back to the barbarian class
would that be a worthwhile multi-class?
by level 9 (assuming a 26 strength while raging (18+racial+2 for level 8, +4 for raging), I'd be doing 6d6+16+ 9(powerattack)damage before I add anything else (including belt of strength, magical weapon, ability bonuses ect.), Also with furious focus, this attack would be take 0 penalties.
I'm still at a loss for rage powers (maybe intimidate or sundering abilities), and besides the obvious (powerattack, furious focus, vital strike chain), I don't know where to put the rest of my feats.
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Weapon Focus (offset some of that Power Attack penalty)
Iron Will/Improved Iron Will (You don't wanna get dominated, do you?)
Improved Initiative (Go first!)
Raging Deathblow (Extra rage when you finish off an opponent)
Furious Finish (Max damage on one attack to finish the BBEG)
Destroyer's Blessing (Extra rage when you break stuff)
Extra Rage (Extra rage)
Ferocious Tenacity (Keeps you from being knocked unconscious)
Raging Vitality (Extra HP while raging and keeps you alive when knocked unconscious)
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So I'm looking to make a tall brutish half-orc character that wields a giant two-handed greataxe/greatsword.
I totally read that as "tall british half-orc" at first. That would be awesome.
If third-party races are allowed I would suggest taking half-giant instead of half-orc, it can be found here at pazio's d20 site.
the half giant can wield weapons one size category larger than they are with no penalties. Worth looking into if you're going for the giant weapon wielder thing
If your DM is crazy enough to let you use the Advanced Race Guide rules, you could build your own large-sized race.
Here is my question: Has the problem with the Titan Mauler been corrected? From what I understand the Titan Mauler cannot use a Greatsword sized for a large creature because they never included the wording for that ability. The Massive weapons ability gets around the first bolded section (see spoiler) but not the second bolded section (see spoiler).
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
It is my belief that they intended for the Titan Mauler to use a 2handed weapon sized for a large creature so in my games I would houserule it. Perhaps your GM will also.
- Gauss
Here is my question: Has the problem with the Titan Mauler been corrected? From what I understand the Titan Mauler cannot use a Greatsword sized for a large creature because they never included the wording for that ability. The Massive weapons ability gets around the first bolded section (see spoiler) but not the second bolded section (see spoiler).
** spoiler omitted **
It is my belief that they intended for the Titan Mauler to use a 2handed weapon sized for a large creature so in my games I would houserule it. Perhaps your GM will also.
- Gauss
It has not. I've posted a new FAQ request here.
"You call that a Starknife? THIS is a Starknife."
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@ Thorkull, Thanks for the advice on feats. I'll probably pick up weapon focus regardless, but I won't have any penalty for my power attacks due to furious focus. The rest look really usefull
@ Gauss, Wow, so according to that it really puts a big damper in my plans. Hopefully my GM will house rule it.
another quick question (assuming my GM lets me houserule it). Will my damage output be at least competitive? Sure I won't get multiple swings a round, but each one that does hit should pack a wallop.
Sub_Zero, the author of the Titan Mauler ability has posted that it was his intent to grant the ability to use a Large 2handed weapon (rather than a medium 2handed weapon). If you need to show him: This
While the author is not a paizo employee he is at least the author and thus intent can be demonstrated.
- Gauss
No, Vital strike will not be competitive. There is only one Vital strike build I know of that can compete with a full BAB+haste progression and that is Devastating Strike (level 19 Two handed fighter archetype ability). It will however be an interesting build.
Regarding Weapon Focus, unless you take the fighter dip I would not waste my time with Weapon Focus. A best BAB build against CR appropriate average AC has a near 95% chance of hitting on the first attack if you don't have any penalties. Against higher CRs the attack chance does drop slightly but not by much.
I think the fighter multi is an ok option but frankly if you are going to do it Id go deeper into it. At the very least I would wait until you got weapon training 1 at level 5. The reason for this is that you can then get the gloves of dueling which adds another +2 to attack and damage. However, you miss out on alot of barbarian progression this way and that may be more worthwhile.
Regardless of fighter or not:
1) Power Attack
3) Furious Focus
5) Pushing Assault?
7) Vital Strike
9) Devastating Strike (if gaining a keen weapon otherwise get imp. Critical)
11) Imp. Vital Strike
13) ??
15) ??
17) Gr. Vital Strike
19) ??
1) Weapon Focus
2) ??
4) Weapon Specialization
2) Guarded Stance (AC is good and only costs a move action every 5+ rounds)
4) Quick Reflexes (for the groundbreaker build, mitigates not having combat reflexes)
6) Ground Breaker (APG, 6th level, Combined with Evade Reach and Pushing Assault can force enemy to burn more than a 5 foot step to get close to you again thus losing a full attack. Additionally, there are potential AOOs resulting)
8) Greater Ground Breaker (UC)
10) Greater Ground Breaker (UC)
12) Greater Ground Breaker (UC)
Some other powers that could be very nice:
Clear Mind (CR, 8th level, very helpful when failing will saves)
Spirit Totem tree (APG, very nice...extra constant damage to living enemies, 20% miss chance to hit you if not adjacent to you).
Smasher (CR, check with GM to see if it would apply to ground breaker. Might be considered rank cheese though.)
I really like the idea of using Ground Breaker, Pushing Assault, and Evade Reach combined. They all appear at nearly the same level too. With the idea of a Vital Striking character you can basically control one point of the field if you wanted to for a time. With your damage output you should be able to beat even hardness 20 ground without too much difficulty but you might want an adamantine weapon ASAP just in case.
- Gauss
Edit on my previous post: I was getting tired when I wrote that. I did not see that evade reach only worked on the barbarians turn. It wont work for the purpose I put forth.
The groundbreaker and pushing assault will still work while enlarged and when ground breaker affects the ground out to 10feet.
- Gauss
groundbreaker is great until a certain level when everything has fly or ignores terrain effects for one reason or another. Best not to focus all your abilities in one basket that's so easily dodged.
Hmmm perhaps our experiences differ Lastoth, I don't find that 'everything has fly or ignores terrain effects' even at a certain level. In your experience what 'certain level' is like this?
Anyhow, I just thought it was an interesting idea. - Gauss
@ Gauss,
thanks so much for the advice. That definitely helps me figure out the progression that I'd want to go down.
As far as damage output is concerned, it seems the main loss I gain from using vital strike as opposed to a normal attack is all the strength bonuses. Now by 12th level, I should be able to use a large sized weapon with no penalty, and I can get a wizard to cast enlarge person on me as well, again no problem. With that my greatsword will be doing 15d6 damage by itself. Like you said, I should be hitting with my attack almost every round, but can a fighter using a full attack action expect every one of his attacks to hit every round? To me it seems the answer is no. So while he has a much higher damage potential then I will (assuming every attack hit he'd also do 15d6, but he'd also get all the bonuses). So the real question is does my average damage output at least compete with his. Let me put it another way.
If he makes a full attack action he'll get 3 attacks. The first one should definitely hit, the second probably, and the third is kinda iffy at best. Now any turn in which every attack hits, he'll sky past me in damage, but if he only hits twice I think I'll be at about the same amount of damage, and if he only hits once I'll completely dominate in damage.
In addition, I have the added bonus of not every having to worry about needing to make a full attack action. This makes me think that eventually getting spring attack would be useful so I can bounce from enemy to enemy as needed.
To be clear when I say competitive, I don't mean I'll be in the top damage tier possible. I more or less mean will I still be able to contribute meaningfully to the group, without letting my character drag them down.
Thanks again for all the advice it was really helpful.
Hmmm perhaps our experiences differ Lastoth, I don't find that 'everything has fly or ignores terrain effects' even at a certain level. In your experience what 'certain level' is like this?
Anyhow, I just thought it was an interesting idea. - Gauss
Probably different GM styles. Most flight mechanisms come into play at 5th, and flight is so useful that in many campaigns anything without wings by 10th level has equipment or spells to enable flying and keep from being murdered by unreachable foes. It's like frickin' Superfriends in those games--even the fighter has winged sandals or something.
blahpers, I agree that the PCs start flying around at that point. But an inventory of the bestiary shows that many creatures at level 5 and beyond still dont fly. While I haven't done a complete inventory I doubt it is even half. And there are only a couple instances of creatures that ignore difficult terrain. - Gauss
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Sub_Zero, if you want the actual damage output for a Two-Handed Fighter (archetype) compared to a Vital Striking Titan Mauler I can do it rather easily. I have an excel file I built for this purpose. However, let me summarize here:
At your level 12 you are doing 3d6 with a Large Greatsword. After enlarge you are doing 4d6. Add in Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike and now you are doing 12d6. With a total damage bonus of 37 (4 devastating strike, 12 power attack, 3 magic weapon, and 18 from raging+enlarged strength) you wind up with a total bonus of 12d6+34. This averages out to 79.90DPR on a vital strike, 93.06 on a full attack and 134.42 when hastened and full attacking (note this is without improved critical which would improve damage 5-10points).
The level 12 Twohanded Fighter Archetype has: 64.44 on a vital strike, 115.04 on a full attack, and 148.56 on a hastened full attack.
Unfortunately by level 20 the fighter is doing 224.45devastating strike and 348DPR full-attack+haste while you are stuck at 107.83DPR Vital Strike and 197.95 full-attack+haste.
So, comparing your vital strike to your full attack+haste you are doing about 50% of a FA+H. Compared to a fighter? barbarians suck on DPR. However, you have powers and skills fighters dont.
- Gauss
Compared to a fighter? barbarians suck on DPR. - Gauss
I think if you meant to say his specific barbarian build will suck on DPR compared to the fighter I agree. If you really mean to say ideally designed Barbarian DPR is sub par to ideally designed fighters I couldn't disagree more.
We will have to agree to disagree Lastoth.
At best, Rage only gives a +4 bonus to attack and damage (+6 using a 2handed weapon). Meanwhile the Fighter gains +6 to attack and damage due to Weapon Training+gloves of dueling. Then another +1 to attack and +4 damage from Weapon Focus and Weapon Specializations (over the barbarian).
Barbarians have few if any things that up that damage beyond what fighters get. Even the Titan Mauler archetype doesn't match the benifits gained by the Two-handed Fighter archetype.
However, Barbarians also get an average of +1hp per level and another +2 to +4 per level while raging. Then they get a variety of rage abilities and Damage Resistance.
I am not saying Barbarians are not worth playing, in fact I like them alot. I am saying they will never do the kind of damage a Fighter does if built along the same lines.
- Gauss
I am saying they will never do the kind of damage a Fighter does if built along the same lines.
- Gauss
I just can't let it go at that, I have to know what I'm missing here to see things so differently. You're adding up tiny bonuses that, on average add a little bit. It should look like this in your head:
Reckless abandon +5/+0
Rage +4/+6
Furious +2/+2
(I will assume Barbarian doesnt take weapon focus, because rage powers are so awesome to take instead)
Barbarian Total: +11/+8
Vs the fighter
Weapon training +5/+5
Gloves of dueling +2/+2
Focus/spec +2/+4 (added greater weapon focus)
Fighter Total +9/+11
Pretty even, since on most DPR calculators I've used one point of +hit is worth about +2.7ish points of damage once you get up there in level.
What you're not adding: The barbarian is (eventually) dishing out pounce and CAGM. It's not even close on rounds he gets those, on rounds he gets neither it's pretty much even. You could say you took mobile fighter, which is a great build IMO, probably the best one (again IMO) but you're still down one attack at your highest BAB when moving and attacking, and you won't top come and get me.
Realistically there's a whole lot more to consider for the entire class comparison, but when it comes to DPR the fighter might sling the same weapons around, he might do about as much damage per hit and land hits as frequently, but he's not going to be landing the number of hits a good barbarian build will.
I've had luck with a dwarf barb with a large sized dwarven waraxe with furious finish and 3 levels in horizon walker for fatigue immunity
Lastoth, alright, I missed the Furious weapon special ability. Nice ability there. I was not thinking of Reckless abandon due to the extreme AC penalty but if balanced out by Guarded Stance it works fine.
One note: Furious only adds +1 effectively. A +5 weapon vs a +4weapon with Furious = +5 vs +6.
With your points yes, they are more balanced on DPR and as a result I retract my statement about that.
The following is with Weapon Focus via barbarian. Just for best DPR, but you are right the powers are probably better.
At level 19 with your build the damage (while hastened) is Barbarian 237.60 vs Fighter 256.26.
At level 20 the fighter jumps ahead Barbarian 256.80 to Fighter 348.45.
However, at lower levels the barbarian is actually ahead by a decent amount. The fighter doesnt equalize and overtake the barbarian until about level 14.
Thanks for correcting my errors. Those two abilities definitely make a difference.
- Gauss
At your level 12 you are doing 3d6 with a Large Greatsword. After enlarge you are doing 4d6. Add in Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike and now you are doing 12d6. With a total damage bonus of 37 (4 devastating strike, 12 power attack, 3 magic weapon, and 18 from raging+enlarged strength) you wind up with a total bonus of 12d6+34. This averages out to 79.90DPR on a vital strike, 93.06 on a full attack and 134.42 when hastened and full attacking (note this is without improved critical which would improve damage 5-10points).
Worth noting that a fixed Titan mauler could be swinging a Huge Greatsword at level 12 with no penalty (Gargantuan after being enlarged) and could eventually work his way up to a Garganguan (Colossal) sword. That's going to change the damage calculations up a fair bit.
Actually Chengar, not as it is written now. (As written now you cannot use a large 2handed weapon). And not if it gets the fix the author suggested. The author suggested a 1 size increase in his fix. Meaning Large 2handed weapons only. No huge.
- Gauss
Edit: Retracted
Actually Chengar, not as it is written now. (As written now you cannot use a large 2handed weapon). And not if it gets the fix the author suggested. The author suggested a 1 size increase in his fix. Meaning Large 2handed weapons only. No huge.
- Gauss
There is a reason I specified that I was discussing a fixed Titan Mauler in my post.
Also, both of the fixes proposed by the author here allow bigger than Large weapons.
Bah, thats what I get for reading things while tired. I missed the second section. Retracted.
- Gauss
P.S. Ever hate it when you are wrong? LOL. I really shouldn't post when tired.
When you not tired Gauss, I'm curious what the reworked damage would be for the colossal sword build? Granted it's looking fairly weak compared to the two builds you and Lastoth are talking about, but at least using a 6d6 weapon should edge it up a little bit.
With Chengar's and Lastoths statements I recalculated DPR for a Titan Mauler Barbarian (when fixed) versus a THF archetype Fighter.
The titan Mauler wins most of the time on DPR, ties on a couple levels and loses only at level 20. This is based on a Large weapon levels 3-9 and a Huge weapon levels 12-20 to minimize penalties.
- Gauss
Sub_Zero, if I understand you correctly...you want a 6d6 weapon? or you want a Colossal Weapon? they arent the same.
Medium = 2d6, Large = 3d6, Huge = 4d6, Garg = 6d6, Col = 8d8, Col+ = 12d8.
Assuming colossal with enlarge becoming colossal+ and picking large@3, Huge@6, Garg@9, Col@12 and then reducing penalties at 15 and 18 you get a -6attack by level 18.
Enlarged you will start doing 25.25 and end up doing 226.86. This is using Vital Strike build talked about earlier but modifying it with the Furious Weapon Property and NOT modifying it with Reckless Abandon.
Compared to the build Lastoth was indicating (huge greatsword, followed by enlarge):
Start doing 22.28 and end @20 doing 314.88 with pounce you can maintain full attack on a charge.
- Gauss
Just to point out, a large bastard sword or a dwarven waraxe deals ~2 more damage than a greatsword at the cost of -2 attack. You also can get a wand of lead blades to increase the number of dices with UMD.
If you intend to use furious finish or titanic rage, consider having something to get rid of fatigue and exhaustion :)
Thanks Gauss for the damage table. I just assumed that it went up d6 per step increase, and I didn't know about the Col+ category.
Also @ Highglander, I thanks for the spell, that should help alot actually.
So if I switch from a half-orc to a half-giant(can use a weapon 1 category larger no penalty), I think I can get it so that I have 0 penalty by level 18 on Col+ weapons.
At first level I can wield a large blade no problem. If I enlarge I'm using a huge blade, again no problem. If I use the lead blade spell I'm using a gargantuan blade (damage wise) no problem. I can then use the titan mauler ability to allow me to use a large blade at 3rd, and 6th level (Col+ weapon -4 penalty). From there I'll reduce the penalty by 1 every 3 levels (by level 18 it's no penalty).
At the end of the day my character will still look ridiculous (he'll be carrying around a gargantuan weapon), but I think even as a half-giant I can pull off my Ugg the big stupid barbarian concept.
Strictly speaking there is no colossal+ category. What there is however is continued damage advancement up to 12d6. There is no listed advancement past 12d6.
- Gauss