Aside from the barbarian (which is just straight beastly, anyway), they're playing classes designed for players with advanced levels of rules and systems knowledge, so knowledgeable players will make those sorts of characters especially potent.
Also, triple-check the summoner's eidolon build. It's really easy to make illegal builds for them by accident.
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Double check stats, and character sheets. Its very easy to miscount points or miss a pre-req for a feat. Also, take advantage of ambushes and ranged attacks. Your party is fairly short range. You can get 1 maybe 2 rounds of solid missile fire on them before they can really hit you. Maybe even toss the Dire Boar and Elementals at them first and sit some Orc archers in the back with Composite bows to rain down firey death.
I know you want to challenge them, so maybe even puzzles, poisons and traps...
Post up some stats so we can look em over.
1st level is stacked in the PC's favor. The Barbarian is especially effective at 1st level, and if uses a 2-handed weapon can 1-shot most CR appropriate baddies. If you think about it, an average roll from an 18 STR Barbarian with a Greatsword will 1-shot anything except another Barbarian (Figuring a 14 on CON), or a d10 HD with toughness with an average damage roll (2d6= 7 + 6 STR Bonus = 13 HP) without Raging. Add the two damage from Rage and even the d10 with toughness is at 0 hp.
One of the ways to challenge them is clever use of tactics. Have the baddies use nets, and the wizards use grease and colorspray. Make sure you're using a map and counters so the baddies get their flanking bonus (make the barbarian appreciate that Uncanny Dodge). If it's an adventuring group of Baddies, or from the same military orginization give them teamwork feats. Reach weapons can be very effective.
Remember the game is already stacked in the PC's favor, as it should be since they're the heroes, so if you take it easy on them the disparity gets even worse.
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Be sure they're tracking their limited uses per day properly. The barbarian only gets a few rounds of rage. The summoner only gets a few summon monster spells per day. The alchemist only gets a few bombs per day. The inquisitor only gets a few spells per day and one judgement per day.
Know how many of each they have and be prepared to call them on it. If they're waltzing through multiple encounters per day without using up any resources, Then those encounters are too easy for them. That's okay sometimes, but it shouldn't be the norm.
The inquisitor is your only healer -- be sure you're tracking his uses of such closely.
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Be sure they're tracking their limited uses per day properly. The barbarian only gets a few rounds of rage. The summoner only gets a few summon monster spells per day. The alchemist only gets a few bombs per day. The inquisitor only gets a few spells per day and one judgement per day.
Know how many of each they have and be prepared to call them on it. If they're waltzing through multiple encounters per day without using up any resources, Then those encounters are too easy for them. That's okay sometimes, but it shouldn't be the norm.
The inquisitor is your only healer -- be sure you're tracking his uses of such closely.
True, but those bombs if used correctly can also do A TON of damage to grouped up baddies. I think my Alchemist at level 1 has 7 bombs per day and on a minimum splash damage is 6. So for most of the things he listed that is over half the enemy HP in splash damage alone.
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True, but those bombs if used correctly can also do A TON of damage to grouped up baddies. I think my Alchemist at level 1 has 7 bombs per day and on a minimum splash damage is 6. So for most of the things he listed that is over half the enemy HP in splash damage alone.Be sure they're tracking their limited uses per day properly. The barbarian only gets a few rounds of rage. The summoner only gets a few summon monster spells per day. The alchemist only gets a few bombs per day. The inquisitor only gets a few spells per day and one judgement per day.
Know how many of each they have and be prepared to call them on it. If they're waltzing through multiple encounters per day without using up any resources, Then those encounters are too easy for them. That's okay sometimes, but it shouldn't be the norm.
The inquisitor is your only healer -- be sure you're tracking his uses of such closely.
If you allow a starting Int of 20, don't complain as a DM that the alchemist does a lot of damage. The best way to play a bomber alchemist is actually to drink a focused extract to deal no splash damage but double your Int modifier on a direct hit.
Notes: They had no magic items, they had a 20 point buy, and nothing houseruled.
Remember, 20 point buy is above the actual standard point buy. It's hard to quantify exactly how much of a boost 20 point buy gives over 15 point buy. But in the case of early level characters, it generally makes a significant difference.
Sounds like your group is pretty balanced and fairly effective in combat. For instance, if you had skill-monkey types or roleplayer-focused characters, that might make things a little more challenging in combat. But if everyone is focused on making combat trivial, you're basically forced to up the CR on them.
I'd say a good indicator is the CR 4 boar encounter. If they dispatched that without using many resources, that's probably a good indicator of what constitutes a challenging encounter. You have to be really careful though. Just because they could probably take on a CR 6 encounter and survive doesn't necessarily mean that they could handle any CR 6 encounter. A good example is the dreaded shambling mound at level 1. . . a common random encounter in a lot of PF modules. Some groups have a really hard time with this encounter (run!!!). My recommendation is to keep encounters in the CR 3-5 range and you should be fine.
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Look easy enough.
Assuming barbarian is optimized, he can defeat opponents on this list handedly.
Then add alchemist with ranged touch attack bombs.
Then add summon with eidolon + summons.
Are you new to PF? Because I don't see anything wrong with the party overcoming all of these challenges, even on the same day.
Dire boar looks to be the most dangerous monster on here other than the wizard with AoE save or die spells. 4 foot soldiers are what, level 1 warriors? Warriors are NPC classes, which means they aren't very powerful. Small elementals have like 9-11 HP each, so if the barbarian hits them, they usually die in one hit.
Don't forget the environment, and all of the 'filler' rules.
When you start to enforce difficult terrain, and line of sight, and encumbrance, etc., the game isn't weighted as strongly in favor of the players.
Did you read and understand tactics yourself with thing and know what all special rules do like ferocity for dire boar which means it odes not stop fighting until at -con hit points if you forget those monsters can be a pusheover.
Things that could challenge them if they are really powerful. Burning skeletons are a little bit overpowered for challange rating 1/2 and deal auto damage. You could also try this which is pretty evil but might result in a tpk. 1st level halfling tatooed sorceror(red dragon bloodline) with scorpion tatoo familiar for +4 init and give them varisian tatoo for evocation and burning hands spell 2d4+2 reflex dc 14 half goodness. Put the 15 in cha and 14 in dex and each gets bumped up by +2. Oh and toughness feat.
Don't forget the environment, and all of the 'filler' rules.
When you start to enforce difficult terrain, and line of sight, and encumbrance, etc., the game isn't weighted as strongly in favor of the players.
I have to say that most of the encumbrance rules problems are pretty easy to avoid, even at first level. The only places where this can really be an issue is with non-Strength-focused characters wearing anything more than light armor.
Difficult terrain can easily up the CR of an encounter. . . and sometimes it can make an easy encounter much more difficult.
Correctly using cover mechanics can really benefit PCs as well. The key is to make the terrain painful for PCs. Give PCs no options for cover while giving NPCs cover. Give the NPCs higher ground. If I go out of my way to give ranged attackers benefits like this, I'll up the CR.
I use a very generous rolling method for stats. My experience with high stat characters is that it matters for a level or two, and then it doesn't. Upping monster power is also a quick fix that doesn't take much time. Just bump the monster hp a bit, if you use enemy casters bump their casting stat, bump the str or BAB of a melee monster. These are quick fixes that can often be done in your head or with a quick note and puts things back in balance.
As someone mentioned before, make sure daily uses and builds are legal. With complicated characters it's easy to miss something, I know I've done it before. If everything's kosher, see how things are at 5th level. If they're still steamrolling everything you'll have to adjust tactics, maybe throw in a diviner to access their weaknesses, something like that. A smart player with a good build is going to have a strong character with any stat generation method.
Parties cannot be too powerful because you can just increase the CR. Make sure everyone is legal, and if they are still beating encounters just up the CR.
the boar is a brute and your party is built to take down brutes. the small earth elementals and foot soldiers are also brutes.
.... You never know when the dice might have been favoring the PC's that more then usual.
Also watch for anyone who picks up a D20 before you can see it... the dice may have been 'really favoring' the PC's
*I've played with a dice cheat before, frustrates the hell out of me
Let it go, things happen. Now if they keep whupping things all the way into 3rd level, then it;s time to take a closer look and come back here for advice.
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Use some kobolds. 4 CR 1/4 kobolds. That's enough to humble the entire party, if the kobolds are fighting on their terms. :P
EDIT: Actually, you can make a little game of it. Kobolds in tight little tunnels with some tunnels being small-sized (so medium PCs must squeeze, which is -4 attacks and AC). Kobolds have point blank shot, and some alchemist fires, and some light crossbows; a few tiny sized tunnels the kobolds can squeeze through (but the PCs cannot follow and can only shoot into laying flat on the ground, which makes it crossbows only). Toss in a pit trap, some barrels for cover, and a smoke stick or two and you'll have a PC nightmare.
EDIT 2: Though I must agree with Dr.Deth above me.
Color Spray. Lots and Lots and Lots of Color Spray. Its such an evil spell to use on PCs.
Yeah its the equivalent of "rocks fall, everybody dies" early level if played straight, or an inescapable "lol you got captured" if used for plot reasons.
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J-Gal
Last night I was running a campaign with 1st level PCs that appear to be extraordinarily strong. Their party is made of an inquisitor, alchemist, barbarian, and a summoner. And after being through several encounters that day already managed to defeat this encounter rather effortlessly:
I feel your pain in having a powerful first leave party. The Group I GM are, masters at optimization and they love power. I'm always try to figure out how to challenge them. And it's not always easy and sometimes hair pulling frustrating. My problem is I'm all about having fun and always want my players to have fun. This thread has been helpful. Thanks for all the great ideas and Thanks J-Gal for starting the thread. Look forward to reading more.
Use some kobolds. 4 CR 1/4 kobolds. That's enough to humble the entire party, if the kobolds are fighting on their terms. :P
EDIT: Actually, you can make a little game of it. Kobolds in tight little tunnels with some tunnels being small-sized (so medium PCs must squeeze, which is -4 attacks and AC). Kobolds have point blank shot, and some alchemist fires, and some light crossbows; a few tiny sized tunnels the kobolds can squeeze through (but the PCs cannot follow and can only shoot into laying flat on the ground, which makes it crossbows only). Toss in a pit trap, some barrels for cover, and a smoke stick or two and you'll have a PC nightmare.
EDIT 2: Though I must agree with Dr.Deth above me.
IE: Look up Tucker's Kobolds ;)
But yeah, playing to the environment and tactics really makes a difference. But make sure it's called for. A ragtag group of kobolds will have different tactics than a mountain lion or a group of soldiers or undead.
Looks like to me you have a solid well rounded group of very potent classes. Other then the Barbarian all the other classes are advanced classes with power creep. Especially the Summoner and the Alchemist. Add in a Barb at 1st level where they shine, and an Inquisitor that can be effective if built right and you got a lot of juice.
Watch out for the power boost the Inquisitor will get at 5th level. Actually 6th level will be pretty rough with all 4. Barb will have 2 attacks, Summoner will have better spells and his pet will have a greater amount of evolution points, Alchemist will have better spells and bombs, and the Inq will have bane.
If you have experienced players you will have issues challenging this group unless you use terrain and spells wisely. Thats not a bad thing though. If they work well together that should be rewarded... not punished with overly gimicky fights. Sometimes its ok to let your players loose.
Actually, the group is rather lacking in healing and party buffing.
This group is more or less all offense. The base CR vs level comparison is done with the assumption of a party of one guy who fights, one guy who kind of fights and has other skills he brings to the table, one guy who casts divine magic and one guy who casts arcane magic.
Your party has 4 characters capable of a lot of offense in combat. That means they will be able to fight more powerful enemies. Be careful though, you dont want any one creature with higher cr against a 1st level party. You should increase the number of enemies they would normally face, as much as double in most cases.
This group is more or less all offense. The base CR vs level comparison is done with the assumption of a party of one guy who fights, one guy who kind of fights and has other skills he brings to the table, one guy who casts divine magic and one guy who casts arcane magic.
Your party has 4 characters capable of a lot of offense in combat. That means they will be able to fight more powerful enemies. Be careful though, you dont want any one creature with higher cr against a 1st level party. You should increase the number of enemies they would normally face, as much as double in most cases.
I agree with Kolokotroni. More is more. ^-^
That being said, here are a few tips that you might consider using.
1) As Kolokotroni pointed out, more lower CR enemies tend to force them to spread out their attention. Singular NPCs can be focused fired on, and with enough DPS you don't need tanks and healers in those sorts of situations. More low CR enemies also produces more varied and interesting fights in my opinion.
2) If you want some sturdier NPCs, consider padding creatures with NPC class levels. The warrior NPC class adds +1 CR for every 2 HD that you add. So for every +1 CR you are getting +2 BAB, +1/2 Fort, +1/3 Ref & Will, +11 base hit points (plus con mod twice), and 4 base skill points. It also adds weapon and armor proficiencies (all simple, martial, light, medium, heavy, and all shields - including tower).
All this being said, you should be proud of your players. Be happy for their success. If their teamwork and strategies are working, that's wonderful. ^-^
Another vote for more weak enemies. Preferably with ranged weapons so they can spread out more and not all get killed by one alchemist bomb. Use interesting terrain, weather effects, and avoidable battlefield hazards. A "challenge" doesn't have to mean that they PCs almost die. It might mean that they had to use their heads a little bit.
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The group is very good at combat - small surprise, because all of their chracters are focused on doing that. I think that if you start devising new encounters that will be so tough even those characters have trouble with them you'll just start an arms race, and that's not fun for anyone.
Rather, I would suggest that you add more out of combat encounters to your games. traps, sneaking missions, social encounters and invastigation are only a few that spring to mind. After struggling with those for a bit they might come to realise they need to spread out their focus during chracter creatin a little more, and maybe design more rounded characters instead of min-maxed combat machines. I mean, non-combat encounter are the main reason not all parties are like your. Remind this fact to your players.
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Adding to Doug's tips.
Tieflings. They can cast Darkness and torches won't help.
Swarms. Yea there is an alchemist, but a couple swarms are still a HUGE pain.
Fire resist. Right now the Alchemist only has fire bombs. Use these
We aren't saying kill them, but think outside the box. There are DEFINITELY ways to challenge them MENTALLY as well as their combat stats.
Let the players have fun. If they slaughter the first set of monsters "too quickly" fall back on one of my favorites: "Suddenly, reinforcements arrive!"
Traps aren't as much as they use to be -- anyone can find and disable mechanical ones, and anyone can find magical ones and use something other than the disable device skill to disable those too (say a summoned creature from the summoner).
What I see with this party:
Summoner -- lots of stamina. At low levels he can bust out summoned monsters all day and switch to his eidolon when he is needed. This combined with actual spells means he's got something to summon and do each combat. Add in the fact he can wear armor has decent weapon selection and okay hit points and he's also able to mix it up some.
Barbarian -- An one hit wonder at level 1 -- he's got better than average move speed and as others have said will basically kill what he hits... without raging. If he doesn't get whittled down by other creatures focusing on him (hitting him when he isn't hitting things) then he's likely to be good for quite the while as well.
Alchemist -- He's got some righteous self buffs off the bat (mutagen) which helps both his offense and defense. The bombs give him great blast potential with significant damage (most blasters are looking at one dice +1 damage to an area: the alchemist is getting 1d6+Int Mod meaning he's bringing much more significant damage each round to multiple creatures). Once he's out of bombs he also gets his int mod as bonus damage on other splash weapons so he can still AOE effectively. Add to this a solid defensive line (armor, decent hit points) and at level 1 he's a solid and long term hitter... but note he's stuck with fire damage for the most part right now.
Inquisitor -- Skill monkey, with a lot of initiative (later on), the ability to identify most things easily, an incredible self buff (that can heal himself or help him put the hurt on things), and decent defenses. He's honestly probably the weakest of the party... for now -- later on he'll just about always have just the thing to walk through encounter after encounter dealing nastiness in his wake.
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Reaper Miniatures
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In my experience, my groups have never had a hard time with any solo encounter save one - Vordakai from Kingmaker. He faced them alone, and it was up to the dice whether they could kill him before he could wipe the party. Closest battle I've ever had against a solo, and I chalk it up to V's resistances, DR, and SR.
Many targets, many actions. It's about action economy. If the monster is getting hit 4x for every swing it gets, it will die in no time. But if you can hit the PCs once for every swing they get at you, fights will be closer (but still favor the PCs). The alchemists' Area Damage abilities mean tactics become important, or you end up with the Alch just killing half the monsters.
For a challenging, non-superlethal fight, hit them with 1.5 times more attacks per round than they can dish out. You'll miss some, sure, but so might they. Probably not the alchemist, though. So use positioning to your advantage.
If you want to put the fear of death into them, hit them with 2x more attacks per round than they have. You should get one or two below zero, and scare the rest.
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let them keep what they have and just throw bigger things at them, in larger groups, until they almost die. When that happens, you've found the right level.
At first level, this is begging for a TPK. Don’t.
I have a house rule that everyone gets bonus Hp equal to their highest HD at 1st level (so barbarians get +12 Hp, fighters get +10 Hp, clerics +8, wizards +6) just so that the party isn't overly squishy; 'cause they end up taking heavy damage and near deaths anyway.
Seriously, 1st level is dangerous. I can't help but wonder what these encounters were. :o
Actually, the group is rather lacking in healing and party buffing.A Summoner does buffs very well, and an Inquisitor plus alchemist can heal quite adequately (though admittedly not spectacularly).
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In theory, the summoner can. But every one I have seen spends all their buffs on their eidolon, or maybe themselves, not the party as a whole- and they have few party boosting buffs.
As to the healing- I hope they have a good source of wands.