I want to preface this post by saying that it is my first on this site. I am the very definition of a 'newb'. I admit that I am ignorant to a lot of mechanics and 'optimization' is completely foreign to me. That said, I have sifted through more posts here than I can even begin to count and I can safely say that I have learned a great deal already from the knowledge that you sage gamers have imparted unto others. Now I call on you all again to help me make a kickass character.
I'm sold on the Dragon Disciple PrC and want to know how to make it strong. I'd like the character to be able to hang in on melee, and I want him to be able to cast some blasty spells for consistent damage as well. I'm leaning toward this guy taking advantage of natural attacks, but I'm certainly not 100% on that. I also plan on taking advantage of the Magical Knack trait for CL but aside from that, I'm open to suggestion.
Oh, and I know that a lot of people thump the Bard bible pretty hard when it comes to accessing DD, but that's not for me I'm afraid. Any help you guys can provide whatsoever would be incredibly beneficial. Thanks for looking.
HA! You're so noob you spell it wrong!
All joking aside I personally really like bard for dragon disciple for a couple of reasons:
1. Armored casting -- look you are adding to strength, Con, gaining natural armor and a D12 hit dice. It makes sense to pair this with something that already has defensive abilities. With Medium hit dice and the ability to wear armor (and a shield) while casting the bard does this.
2. Improved combat ability -- The bard has medium BAB, combined with the BAB from dragon disciple and the natural attacks (if you choose to use them) the bard becomes very capable of landing multiple hard hits.
3. Complementary abilities -- The bard's buffing ability mixes well with the dragon disciples melee abilities. The dragon disciple's save throws help augment the bard's weak save and boost the save he's unlikely to have as much of a bonus on. The dragon disciple's other abilities (blindsense, breath weapon, flight, shape change) all help in areas the bard is generally lacking in (flight, a higher level see invisibility, lack of area attacks, and well dragon form is simply nice), and the bard gains the bloodline abilities a sorcerer gets (possibly up to 14th level with robes of arcane heritage).
4. The spellcasting hits do not cost a bard his best spell level. A sorcerer that goes dragon disciple for a full 10 levels is going to lose his ninth level spells. A bard will still get his sixth level spells.
How about I just point you to Osterisk's guide?
Michael,
Ideally, I would like a solid balance of casting a melee, but I don't want the character to suck at both simply for the sake of balance between the two. If I can achieve it cool, if not school me.
The group of guys I play with are the ones who taught me how to play. Before I started actually cracking the books open past the "barbarian" and "fighter" classes they prefer, their idea of what a spellcaster did didn't go past magic missile. I suppose you'd call our set up a home game, we're just homebrewing an adventure path. We use CRB, APG, UM and UC. I was leaning toward 2 or 3 levels of sorcerer and taking DD asap (6th level). I'm not sure if that's the "best" path or not. I was considering a 2-3 class martial dip in Ranger for the Aspect of the Beast feat, but again, that's just my preliminary inclination.
Abe,
Hahaha...damn phonetics. Armored casting alone is almost worth it to me. I've extrapolated a couple ideas out to level ten or so, and without buffs/magic items this guy's looking to be rocking an AC somewhere around 16-18 WITH all the DD's natural armor bumps (DEX is a 14). That's one of my major concerns with the build and something I was hoping to get some guidance on from you guys. But is Bard is my only viable option?
Brambleman,
I've actually looked at Oterisk's guide and I dig it. I am hoping to emulate his "Beast Caster" model with this character, but he isn't really clear on the 'chassis' portion of this character. I really need help on the best possible set ups for the five levels before I get into DD.
All,
Thanks for the good ideas and questions. Keep 'em coming.
Well, I had a build that sounds a bit like what you're talking about:
Also, to everybody who sees this, I'm still looking for advice/critique for my build in that thread. Osterisk took a look at it but didn't have much to comment on because it was a bit new to him and he's considered adding the option to his guide.
NO bard is not your only option -- but it is a strong one.
Another option would be to take 1~2 levels in Sohei monk, crossblood your sorcerer levels with empyreal and draconic of your choice. This will get you full martial proficiency and make your casting stat also a bonus to AC as well. That would net you an AC bonus of +13 to go on top of your dexterity, bracers of armor +8, bullet shield, natural armor and the like.
Other options include taking an one level dip in oracle to get a mystery revelation that replaces your Dexterity bonus with your charisma bonus (I like the deaf and blind curses myself), or considering a few levels in ninja to use the ninja trick vanish at the end of your rounds (an iffy move due to invisibility not being as useful late game).
Summoner's also qualify and have armored casting, however their primary class features serve you best if you stay in the summoner class, as such they tend to not make as good dragon disciples.
Oh also, you mention the AC being 16-18 without buffs or magic items. That sounds normal to me for a lot of classes not wearing magical gear and not buffed.
The point is, Mage Armor and Shield (if possible) spells kick that up to 24-26. Add in Amulet of Natural Armor (although I'd prefer Mighty Fists), Dusty Rose Ioun Stone, Ring of Protection as basic adventuring gear, and you're not worse off than any other class.
I went Sorc 4/ fighter 1 on my current PBP char.
He's a beast Caster type, built around switch hitting.
One thing i did, was sink the armor budget into a rod of extend spell, instead of magic armor.
The first level was fighter, and was best played as a fighter who uses spells as a weapon, rather than trying to fill a wizards shoes even partially.
heres Alric Auldhelm
About Alric:
Arcane Strike is the best thing about the build. It allows him to use many weapons without sucking at them. And drop or throw them when needed to switch back to spells, and then draw new ones to fight again. This guy is never unarmed. Plus the feat works with claws. I also took quick draw to help with the switching.
Weapons Alric has available:
Falcata, claws, daggers, chakrams, longbow, spells, blade boot.
Extended Mage Armor beats a chain shirt and i have better bloodline powers and damage spells.
A DD makes a good support and cleanup build. Alric is built to be able to cover party weaknesses, such as acid arrow on Spell Resistance, Magic Missile on tough AC and such, and backup melee on the rest.
Magical Knack keeps your caster level up. GET IT!!
Plus, his non-gear-dependent ability means i instigated the jailbreak when the party got captured.
Balance your charisma and strength, probably slightly favoring strength. I'd strongly advise to not take the crossblooded archetype. It streches RAW to it's limits and breaks rules as intended (in my opinion) - instead take Eldritch Heritage feats.
A melee sorcerer can work because it uses magic and feats to boost your strength into the lower stratosphere.
At level 20-
+5 Strength from levels, +6 enchancement from items, +6 inheirent from Eldritch Heritage going into Abysal, +4 untyped from Dragon Disciple, +10 Size from Form of the Dragon III (+6 size with Form of the Dragon II), possibly +4 Morale to strength from a level dip in Barbarian (Urban archetype).
This should cover most of the sources of extra strength. The real power is when you are in dragon form. Starting at a conversative 17 strength by the end this totals to 52. You don't really care much about BAB since you are attacking with natural weapons. With 52 strength - a bite, two claws, two wings, and a tail who needs BAB :).
Early levels seem like they will be rough, with a little lowish CHA so your DC for spells won't be amazing, but it shouldn't be terrible. You will be a little squishy but you will come into your own eventually, take Shield and Mage Armor to help early levels. You can always switch them out later.
Feats to consider - take Abysal bloodline with Eldritch feats to double your claw useage, Improved bloodline later to get the strength. Arcane Strike will help with damage and bypass Magic DR.
As for items, anything that increases strength or charisma is obviously good for you. Consider getting an Amulet of Mighty Fists if you can to increase your natural attack damage.
When you don't want to melee you can easilly stay back and cast. Know your enemies and play to the weakpoints. You can always summon minions. Pick up spells that can target the weak points of a creature. Have different spells that can target touch AC, reflex, will, and fort (good advice for any sorcerer honestly). And there is the option of changing into a giant dragon and be very very deadly.
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Gren,
I'm actually playing a Magus right now that makes extensive use of shocking grasp...much to the chagrin of the rest of my party. They apparently don't think a level five character should be hitting for 50-60 damage per round consistently.
Abe,
Wow. Just...wow. I never would have found that and I actually like the idea as well. Never played a monk before, but I've always thought the class had some appeal. That's a really interesting way to get to DD and it will make him more viable in the sucky lower levels before he really blossoms. I'll have to kick the tires on that the next few days.
Also, was their a particular reason why you chose the Sohei archetype for monk? Again, forgive my ignorance.
Brambleman,
Also a really cool concept. I love the idea of a guy just armed to the teeth that uses arcane strike to plus up his plethora of weapons. The rod of extend is also a great idea. I'll have to look into that as well. One question though: How did you get your Arcane Strike to impart a (+2) to your weapons?
So here's my next question for everyone: What's the most effective way to incorporate Eldritch Heritage into this build? I am looking specifically at Strength of the Abyss or similar bloodline powers to really jack up this guy's strength. Are there better options though?
GrenMeera, that's "Oterisk". Not "Osterisk". Still is a fine build you got, its definitely making it in the guide when I can work on it.
There are actually plenty of options to make a fine DD. One of the purposes of the guide was to dissuade people from making bad decisions and hating the class.
Another prospect that might make your group more appreciative of you is if you go with the Summoner for your Inevitable and get a wand monkey. People complain less when they get Haste and other buff spells on a regular basis. It also keeps your BAB higher.
Eldrich Heritage doesn't kick in your strength bonus until level 11. Take feats that are good for you at a lower level, and delay until level 7 to get your Skill Focus, unless you want those extra claw attacks from Abyssal. Orc Bloodline is also much better now if you take the Opportunistic Gambler trait. That needs to be added to the guide too.
Eldrich heritage is a fine path to take. Half elf will net you free skill focus and some other goodies, but human will give the feat and a few spells from favored class. But those are the go-to choices for that path.
Arcane strike scales with Caster level, so at CL5, i get +2.
If you really must have damage spells and armored casting, go magician bard. Be sure to nab the great control spells the bard gets, and then snag your damage spells (and Enlarge Person), from the Sorc list.
Also, guides are meant to tell you about good choices and bad choices. Stick to a theme, blue and green, and you will be fine.
My favorite beast caster builds are in the guide. If you don't like them, go with something new. I'm not sure if there is much besides what I mentioned that isn't there though.
Masters remain humble by paying attention to where they still lack.
What do people think of a summoner (synthesist) / dragon disciple?
No-go, as written it will drop all your stats when you fuse.
What do people think of a summoner (synthesist) / dragon disciple?No-go, as written it will drop all your stats when you fuse.
Actually, since the ninja errata in the PRD, this actually become a semi-viable option. Now it states that you gain the eidolons "Modifiers to ability scores" instead of "Uses the eidolons physical ability scores"
So you would gain the benefit of the Ability Increase Evolution as well as the eidolons HD advancement ability score increases and the Str/Dex Bonus. 5 Levels of summoner before DD could net you +5 Str and +2 Dex, as well as a few natural weapons, not a bad deal. Pair that with Barbarian 1 for entry and a starting strength of 17 and by level 10 you can have a Str of 32 with no magical items.
What do people think of a summoner (synthesist) / dragon disciple?No-go, as written it will drop all your stats when you fuse.Actually, since the ninja errata in the PRD, this actually become a semi-viable option. Now it states that you gain the eidolons "Modifiers to ability scores" instead of "Uses the eidolons physical ability scores"
So you would gain the benefit of the Ability Increase Evolution as well as the eidolons HD advancement ability score increases and the Str/Dex Bonus. 5 Levels of summoner before DD could net you +5 Str and +2 Dex, as well as a few natural weapons, not a bad deal. Pair that with Barbarian 1 for entry and a starting strength of 17 and by level 10 you can have a Str of 32 with no magical items.
Wow. When did that go up?
The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores.
It doesn't even say physical only. Huh. That changes a few things, doesn't it? A rationally statted synthesist essentially gets only bonuses from this (well, there is the Int penalty), while a physical-dump synthesist is no longer quite the powerhouse it once was.
Abe,
Wow. Just...wow. I never would have found that and I actually like the idea as well. Never played a monk before, but I've always thought the class had some appeal. That's a really interesting way to get to DD and it will make him more viable in the sucky lower levels before he really blossoms. I'll have to kick the tires on that the next few days.
Also, was their a particular reason why you chose the Sohei archetype for monk? Again, forgive my ignorance.
Ignorance requires no apology, especially when you are remedying it -- so don't apologize. I like Sohei primarily for the full martial proficiency in this case. With that once you finish your levels in DD you can (if you choose) go straight into eldritch Knight. You also get a (small) initiative bonus and can always act in the surprise round which is another nice advantage -- this does replace stunning fist but that requires and unarmed strike anyways. Speaking of which your Unarmed strike damage doesn't go up -- but it is still a nice back up and mixes well with your claws and bite on the rounds you don't want to use them you can flurry of blows to help keep your damage up.
GrenMeera, that's "Oterisk". Not "Osterisk". Still is a fine build you got, its definitely making it in the guide when I can work on it.
Oops, sorry about the mis-spelling! Also, that's awesome! Your guide is essentially the goto and fairly famous!
Gren,
I'm actually playing a Magus right now that makes extensive use of shocking grasp...much to the chagrin of the rest of my party. They apparently don't think a level five character should be hitting for 50-60 damage per round consistently.
Well, it stacks on nicely with a claw/claw/bite that adds +1 for every damage dice for sorcerer. Some people point out that a high strength will make your natural attacks your bread and butter, but I see no reason not to do a touch attack at the same time.