So are there any rules about extra points left in a stat buy it should I just Try and convince the player to rework the numbers?
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To borrow a ploy from Foxbat you could send the left over points to me. I have a couple of characters who could use a stat bump or three.
Seriously though take a look at their numbers. I expect there is room somewhere.
In what situation can you have points left over and nowhere to put them? Just raise something.
Did you have a 31pt buy and they bought six 14's and can't put that last point anywhere?
How about 15 point buy, with a purchased 18, 17, 7, 7, 7, 7 before racial mods. That's just one example--if all your stats are either 7 or 13+, you can run into this situation with far lower point buy than 31.
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Tell him he's missing out an a very small bit of power and it will make little difference and he he doesn't care let him run it, it shouldn't really make a noticeable change to how the character plays.
As a side note all the buys I've seen that end up with extra points are so min maxed they character will be dead soon anyway so it shouldn't matter.
Ooh, I've run into this problem in our games with 25-point buy.
Sadly, there are no rules governing what to do about it. When I asked the same question a few months ago, I was told to either change the numbers or let the extra points go to waste.
Here's a link to my 27-posts long thread, and a brief excerpt:
Our group generally uses 25-point buy. I decided that I wanted to make an orc that was a paragon of physical ability, but otherwise was as intelligent, perceptive, and sociable as your average brick. I thought it might be fun to roleplay as something of a parody character.
I dropped all three mental attributes to base 7, thereby allowing me a whopping 37 points to attribute to physical stats.
Sadly, that's not enough points for me to get three 18s. I could, however, get two 18s and a 13 (17+17+3=37).
However, I want all three physical stats to be really high. Unfortunately, three 17s is still too expensive (39 points).
I was willing to settle for two 17s and a 16, but that only uses up 36 total points. Normally, I would just spend the last point to up one of my mental attributes slightly, but in this case I can't, as increasing any of my mental attributes by even one point would cost me 2 points of point buy, which means now I'm one short rather than one over.
How is this supposed to be resolved? It seems like a glitch in the point buy system to me.
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Ooh, I've run into this problem in our games with 25-point buy.
Sadly, there are no rules governing what to do about it. When I asked the same question a few months ago, I was told to either change the numbers or let the extra points go to waste.
Here's a link to my 27-posts long thread, and a brief excerpt:
Our group generally uses 25-point buy. I decided that I wanted to make an orc that was a paragon of physical ability, but otherwise was as intelligent, perceptive, and sociable as your average brick. I thought it might be fun to roleplay as something of a parody character.
I dropped all three mental attributes to base 7, thereby allowing me a whopping 37 points to attribute to physical stats.
Sadly, that's not enough points for me to get three 18s. I could, however, get two 18s and a 13 (17+17+3=37).
However, I want all three physical stats to be really high. Unfortunately, three 17s is still too expensive (39 points).
I was willing to settle for two 17s and a 16, but that only uses up 36 total points. Normally, I would just spend the last point to up one of my mental attributes slightly, but in this case I can't, as increasing any of my mental attributes by even one point would cost me 2 points of point buy, which means now I'm one short rather than one over.
How is this supposed to be resolved? It seems like a glitch in the point buy system to me.
Its not a glitch, but a feature. It would make more sense if you actually GOT something for having an 11 or a 13 in a stat. Some work for pre-reqs, but those are pretty far and few between.
Points not spend are wasted... What else did you think would happen?
If they truly cannot think of a stat to put their extra points into, have them put it into strength. Every point counts for carrying capacity.
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Unless the point can increase a score, it goes to waste. Them's the breaks with a point-buy system, especially when you're dumping every other stat to get an 18 and a 17. Maybe throw em' a bone and add that last one as a one-time bonus hit point, or something. If you're using the Hero Points system, you might just convert it to a single Hero Point.
Now, I'm not advocating burning point-buy points for these options wholesale; just once at first level.
Wow, harshness, I see. I'd let someone take an additional trait.
So are there any rules about extra points left in a stat buy it should I just Try and convince the player to rework the numbers?
Stick it somewhere fluffy.
Ah, my least favorite thing about point buy. If you roll, you can at least blame the dice gods. But this? You can only blame yourself for not finding a combination you like. Or I guess you can blame the system for favoring even numbers when there's no plan for increases.
I used to think odd scores helped against 1-point damage or drain, but later learned that such things only work in pairs anyway.
Here's what I recommend you suggest to the player:
1. Rework the numbers to avoid unnecessary odd scores. Ask, "Do I really need <X> to be this high?" or similar.
2. Consider odd scores for STR, CON, because those care about odd scores, or consider other stats for feat requirements (e.g. INT 13 for Combat Expertise IIRC).
3. Allow custom +1 (and maybe +3/+5) belts and headbands in your game, and let the player know an odd score can be compensated for. The magic item section lays out the rules, noting GM discretion, so it's not really a house rule. However, if you do this, I'd recommend a house rule limiting this to one such item per character. The upshot of odd items like this is that it can help even scores if the campaign ends before level 16 (and a character is maxing out a stat that was even at 1st level).
Dur. I keep editing this post :P. Alternatively, if the campaign ends before 16th level, perhaps advocating an even primary stat might help. Depends on how players think: go with 1 lower on that primary stat, or go 1 higher, and decrease something else?
Unless the point can increase a score, it goes to waste. Them's the breaks with a point-buy system, especially when you're dumping every other stat to get an 18 and a 17. Maybe throw em' a bone and add that last one as a one-time bonus hit point, or something. If you're using the Hero Points system, you might just convert it to a single Hero Point.
Now, I'm not advocating burning point-buy points for these options wholesale; just once at first level.
Not sure what your definition of 'waste' is. Sure, it won't increase your modifier 'at that time', but having a 13 stat, compared to a 12, is one less point you need to spend if you know you will be increasing that stat later on.
Also, as I said in my prior post, if carrying capacity is important to you, every point makes a difference in Strength.
I have played my share of arcane casters and have never played the 'frail and weak mage'. Has he ever started with an 18 Int/Wis, of course not, but I usually don't drop below 10 for my Strength, as then it just becomes more of a hassle to carry the daily essentials.
Use it or lose it.
Not sure how that is 'harsh', especially if they have been dumpstatting away.
A solid house-rule system for point buy is to grant 1 point at each level up, plus a bonus point every 4th level. So a 5th level character with a base 20 point buy has a total point buy of 25 (20+4 for level ups + bonus at level 4).
This system will take a dedicated stat character (caster, etc) to the same ability level they would otherwise have using the normal system, with only a 1 level variance in when they get the stat up. (The point buy numbers are a simple pattern, easy to expand into the 20s)
Pros:
However, it allows a multiple ability dependent character to spread points out more evenly and shore up multiple stats to respectable (but not mighty) ranges.
It also solves the "extra points left over" issue of this thread.
It also allows more room for stat based character development (Since my character has been more social lately, I'll bump his cha to 12).
Cons:
It takes a relatively disciplined player to hoard points at the higher levels to purchase those 20+ stats. Its easy to spend a few points here and there, slowing down or permanently aborting that climbing prime stat.
Still, I find that having exchanging an Int 24 for a 22 and having my dex, con, and cha all be 2 points or more higher is a worthwhile exchange (and thats only if I let myself not hoard points for int). The ease at which it solves the Multiple Ability Issues that plague monks and other characters pretty much permanently established this by group vote at my games.
So are there any rules about extra points left in a stat buy it should I just Try and convince the player to rework the numbers?
The only rule that applies when all your point buy points aren't used to create your character is mob rule!
Specifically a frothing mob of angry optimizing mathletes.
We merged the duplicate threads on this topic.
Wow, harshness, I see. I'd let someone take an additional trait.
That would work.
Incidentally (though this isn't legal for PFS), this is not a problem for games that I GM: I've changed the system slightly that at level 4 each character gets 3 points additional point buy (applied to the base stats, i.e. pre-racial and items). At level 8 the extra point buy is 4, etc:
Level 4 - 3pt
Level 8 - 4pt
Level 12 - 5pt
Level 16 - 6pt
Level 20 - 7pt
Naturally characters are allowed to save points between levels. And spend their points when it is convenient.