And that's +10 AC wearing nothing but the bloomers of the daughter of the Venture Captain who's now dedicated to sending him on suicide missions. :)
Plus, I believe he now gets to add DEX, WIS and INT to AC...
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8th level? you think -1 for +4AC is good? Make that caharacter 1 lvl of Monk (MoMS) and 7 levels of Fighter (Aldori Swordlord) and he is taking -0 to attack and gaining +8 AC while doing a full attack, plus having the free negate hit from Crane Wing. Add in Combat Expertise with the Threatening Defender trait and now your taking -1 to hit for +10 AC :)
And that's +10 AC wearing nothing but the bloomers of the daughter of the Venture Captain who's now dedicated to sending him on suicide missions. :)
Plus, I believe he now gets to add DEX, WIS and INT to AC...
A bizarre combination of classes, feats and traits allows characters to have great AC???!!!
The horror!!!
/sarcasm
If a characters invests that much to be great at something, she should be great at it. Look how many resources the player devoted to have good AC. He should be rewarded for it. It's annoying how people so often claim something is too powerful without taking in consideration the investment and sacrifices necessary to make that something efficient.
"But he's not even donning armor" you say? So what? Either they fight unarmed and have to invest in AoMF (which is very expensive and takes the slot of Amulets of Natural Armor) or they are using an weapon, in which case the Improved Unarmed Strike became even more of a feat tax.
Also... The +10 to AC has nothing to do with Crane Wing. Nor does Aldori Sword Lord class features. Claiming a feat is unbalanced because it's part of an unbalanced build makes no sense. Especially when the build is not even that good!
Man I haven't checked it out really till now but the Swordlord actually looks like a pretty good fighter archetype. Holy crap.
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It's less OP than vanish and blend. Both are lvl 1 spells. 3+ feats should totally beat a lvl 1 spell.
Ack, I failed my save against this thread again.
+1 to both!
Crane style is good the way it is.
If someone tells you otherwise just end the discussion because now you know that the one has no idea.
@Scavion: It's good for a very specific sort of build that requires being committed to building that sort of fighter. There's an old discussion thread on building it here: Secrets of the Swordlords but I wouldn't recommend posting in that thread. If you have questions about a swordlord build, just post a new thread under advice.
Swordlord is very dependent on full attacks and quite feat intensive. I mean, it STARTS with an EWP feat tax...
It does work well with the Crane Wing feats, yes. But it's not nearly as good at monster bashing.
==Aelryinth
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I disagree completely. I deal significant damage, and have high AC. I can tank better than an equivalent level Barbarian. Shoot, my PFS legal Character is only 9th level and his damage bonus is +21 (only 2 of which comes from sword) imagine how much more is possible in open PF format. At 13th level, the one mentioned before for Barbarian, I would negate all his rage bonuses with a simple demoralize check for a minimum of 5 rounds.
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I like the Aldori Swordlord a ton... and it really isn't doing anything that is overpowered either (which is why I love it). It is so easy for a sword and board vanilla fighter to get an equally high (often higher) AC. It is also easy for them to deal equal or better damage (often better).
The point is that a Swordlord is a viable option for a build that has a completely different style.
The PrC also works really well as a rogue.
Take the prerequisite feats plus:
Hero's Display
Performing Combatant
Shatter Defenses
Lots of sneak attacks, full dex mod to damage. Really a fun style and far more viable than that godawful Duelist PrC.
More to the point, Crane Style is perfectly reasonable. If you can't figure out how to get past 1 block per round then you are a terrible GM.
There are some powerful builds that use it, but that just means that it is a piece of a bigger picture. I put together a grapple-barb, for example, that used crane style in conjunction with Stalwart, Invulnerable Rager, and Bolstered Resilience + immunity to fatigue from Martial Artist to auto block one hit, get DR 20/- against the second, and DR 10/- against all others.
Crane style is just one little piece of that complex build
I disagree completely. I deal significant damage, and have high AC. I can tank better than an equivalent level Barbarian. Shoot, my PFS legal Character is only 9th level and his damage bonus is +24 (only 2 of which comes from sword) imagine how much more is possible in open PF format. At 13th level, the one mentioned before for Barbarian, I would negate all his rage bonuses with a simple demoralize check for a minimum of 5 rounds.
I'd like to see such mighty build. Would you mind sharing it with us?
I disagree completely. I deal significant damage, and have high AC. I can tank better than an equivalent level Barbarian. Shoot, my PFS legal Character is only 9th level and his damage bonus is +24 (only 2 of which comes from sword) imagine how much more is possible in open PF format. At 13th level, the one mentioned before for Barbarian, I would negate all his rage bonuses with a simple demoralize check for a minimum of 5 rounds.I'd like to see such mighty build. Would you mind sharing it with us?
Ditto... hard to see where that would all come from.
Assuming a 24 dex, thats +7Weapon Spec for +2
Power Attack for -3/+6
Weapon Training 1 gets traded out, but he'd get it at 9th for +1
Gloves of Dueling for +2 more if he stuck with fighter
so that is +18
But he is also suggesting that he has Shatter Confidence, the PrC ability, so I would guess that he is Dex based (or at least should be). Either way that is a 5th level PrC ability, and the PrC requires 5 ranks in intimidate sooo.... that would mean level 10 at a minimum. And getting into the PrC that early means no Steel Net (for the reduced Fighting defensively penalty) and no weapon training so no gloves of dueling.
Yeah I have no idea how one could get +24 dmg per swing without crazy items.
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The PFS character was pre-AlS archetype, so he is using Weapon Master archetype and then AlS PC. Also, I misquoted damage bonus it is +21, not 24 (Hero Lab multiplies Dex by 1.5 for two handed, so have to remember to subtract that 3). Here it is:
1 lvl Monk (MoMS), 6 lvls Fighter (WM), 2 lvls Aldori Swordlord PC.
Feats: Ex Weap Prof, Weap Focus, Weap Spec., Dodge, Combat Exp., Power Attack, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte, Dazzling Display, Weap. Finesse, Aldori Dueling Mastery
Damage bonus: +1 sword, +6 Dex, +9 PA (2 hand), +3 Weap Training (ala Gloves of Dueling), +2 Weap Spec. = +21.
At 12th level I gain the Shatter Confidence ability from PC which causes all opponents I demoralize (my Intinidate will be in the mid 20s) to lose all moral bonuses for a number of rounds equal to my PC lvl (5). All of a Barabrian's rage bonuses are morale bonuses :)
Ah, didn't realize that you were 2-handing it...
Too bad about not having the archtype available... its great to switch back to it and get the extra 2 point reduction on fighting defensively and the increased +2 ac. With that and crane and acrobatics, you get -0/+5. and you get to stack defensive parry
And I still don't see anything OP...
+21 (or even 24) damage at 9th level is not exactly impressive. You can counter Barbarians... Good for you. So what?
Would you mind using the "Output Hero Statblock - BBCode" option? It makes it easier to analyze the build.
Of course the great bane of any build like this is getting caught flat footed..... :)
Or Pinned... with no dex the build falls apart.
Nice of them to give that Initiative bonus to dueling mastery. As a dex based class its pretty for them to get a very high initiative bonus. Doesn't exactly help against feints, but there is a way to get around any build.
Still, I love the swordlord. As good as a basic fighter without usurping the fighter. Full of style, flare and flavor... all around its about the best designed PrC I have seen in pathfinder. Namely because it doesn't just gimp you by default like all the others.
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I have full Sense Motive (not a perfect defense against feint, but helps) as for grapple, my Fighter lvls took alt. human favored class bonus of +1 to CMD vs 2 maneveurs (grapple and trip) so my CMD vs Grapple is extra high.
@ Lemmy, for PFS it is, and that's with very high AC so I'm much more survivable and don't require massive healing support like a Barbarian.
@ Lemmy, for PFS it is, and that's with very high AC so I'm much more survivable and don't require massive healing support like a Barbarian.
You don't grow claws, break magic and pounce either. Saying you have amazing <whatever> doesn't mean much if you don't show us what you sacrificed in order to achieve that <whatever>.
Barbarians don't need any more healing than any other melee class (well, except Paladins, but that's another story). In fact, having more hp and DR means they need LESS healing, not more.
Let's see... Your character has 1 monk level, 6 fighter level, 2 swordlord levels... That's a BAB of +8. Not bad...
+3 from weapon training. +2 from WF and GWF. +1 sword. -3 from PA, +6 Dex.
That's a +17. Am I correct?
It shouldn't really be an argument about whether or not a swordlord is flat out better... it isn't. But it IS a PrC build that keeps pace, and that is something to like. And it has mad flavor.
Its not all about fat stacks after all.
Also, if your party's barbarian needs massive healing support, that is on him.... not on the class.
besides, this is a thread about Crane Style and if it is unbalanced... and I have to still say, no.. its fine.
I agree with Lord_Malkov.
I'm not one to criticize other players' character builds unless asked to. But the build in question was used as evidence to support the claim that Crane Style is OP. I find that claim to be untrue, so I wanted to see this evidence (i.e.: the build) and how well it holds.
I've yet to see Crane Wing make any character OP. It's such an easy feat to counter. I suggested half a dozen easy ways to do it, all of them very simple and very common.
BTW, here's a build who deals 2d6+21 damage too. Check it out, and you'll see his damage output doesn't make him a
Warren The Warrior
Male Human (Taldan) Warrior 9
CN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 12, flat-footed 22 (+11 armor, +1 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 85 (9d10+36)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +10
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee (Power Attack already included)+1 Silversheen Greatsword +18/+10 (2d6+19/17-20/x2) and
. . +3 Silversheen Greatsword +20/+12 (2d6+21/17-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +3) +14/+9 (1d8+7/x3)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +14; CMD 27
Feats Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Traits Auspicious Tattoo (Shoanti), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-1 jump), Climb +18, Intimidate +10, Perception +10, Swim +18
Languages Common, Draconic
Other Gear +2 Full plate, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +3), +1 Silversheen Greatsword, +3 Silversheen Greatsword, Belt of physical perfection +2, Cloak of resistance +3, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ring of protection +1, 50 GP
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Special Abilities
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Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
DPR vs AC 23: 54.88
At least you have to roll something. My biggest problem tih crane style is that ther eis not roll involved. The same reason I have no problwm with snake style.You can be hit for ten millions points of damage by a fireball...until you save vs Reflex and take none.
Dang them monks/rogues/rings of evasion wearers. Clearly broken!
==Aelryinth
Rolling doesn't mean anything, balance wise. And Snake Style can be used against ranged attacks too. It's also allows you to deal Piercing damage with unarmed strikes, provides a minor bonus to a very useful skill and doesn't require you to fight defensively.
Both styles are really good feats, but far from OP.
A CR 25 criter with a one really devastating hit can not touch the level 3 monk, it is absurd, IMHO.
That's an absurd example. Some enemies will be helpless against certain creatures unless they have the proper counter. So what? That applies to a billion different situations.
That same critter can't hit a 1st level Wizard with Vanish. Or a 1st level Ninja with vanishing Trick.
Is Crane Style really unbalanced ? What could the GM...
No.
But needs Flamingo Variant.
Who swing tall bird anyway? Never seen that years combats.
Rolling means a lot. In aelrynth example the wizard coudl have the DC so high that the rogue can not evade the fireball, or the rogue can roll a 1 or something.
I do not know about Overpoweredness, but at least for me it is annoyng that the ability always works.
The existence of a roll doesn't necessarily mean anything is more or less balanced.
Crane Style have other limitations that do not apply to Snake Style. Or Boar Style. Or Dragon Style. Or any other feat.
There are means to overcome invisibility. there is no mean to (with a melee attack) overcome crane style with yur first attack.
That same critter can't hit a 1st level Wizard with Vanish. Or a 1st level Ninja with vanishing Trick.
Why do you only count the means to overcome invisibility? Crane Style has its own weaknesses. Melee attacks are just not one of them.
As i said I do not know about balance, but certainly the fact that crane style always works bothers me. Imho the ability shoudl work almost all times, but not always.
That's the thing. It does not work all the time. It works once per round. Against one type of attack. Here are a few instances where it does not work:
How to defeat Crane Wing:
- ranged attacks
- spells
- iterative attacks
- natural attacks (blocking the first claw attack of the Dire Tiger who can attack 2 or 3 times with claws and bite is not that helpful)
- multiple enemies
- area effects
- invisibility
- catching the opponent flat-footed.
How to defeat invisibility:
- See The Invisible
- Glitterdust (if you know where the invisible creature is)
- Blindsense
- Blind Sight
- Tremor Sense
Hmmm... Somehow I think the examples in the 1st list are a lot more common than the ones in the second list.
No, no. That is a bad argument.
The feat deflect one melee attack per round, and that never fails. Spells, iteratives, ranged attacks do not affect my assertion casue those are not covered by the feat.
The feat always works for what it does.
It's a perfectly valid argument. Everything always works until it doesn't.
And invisibility always works unless someone has blindsense. Power Attack always works, unless you miss the attack. Deflect Arrows always works on ranged attacks. Toughness always works, unless you die. Immunity to Fire always works, unless you're attacked by some other element.
You're ignoring Crane Wing restrictions, Nicos. Yes, the feat always works when it can work, but it doesn't work on everything and it's very limited in what it can do. That's how it's balanced.
It does not always work. It works against 1 melee attack a round. And that's it.
I said it always work for what it does.
And I said that's the same for many other game mechanics.
I would like that deflect arrow not always works to, but in this case the situations is very different cause archers tend to have much more attacks.
A lot of creatures only have one single attack.
Then again, Deflect Arrows doesn't require that you fight defensively or stay in total defense. It also requires 1 less feat and can be taken at 1st level.
Creatures who only have 1 attack are weak against opponents with Crane Wing. Creatures who only deal fire damage are weak against opponents with immunity to fire. Creatures who focus on spell-casting are weak against opponents inside an AMF. Creatures who rely on physical attacks are weak against incorporeal opponents... And so on.
Everything is weak against something. It's part of the game. There will always be a build/creature/spell/situation that completely screws you over. Which is why characters should work as a team and not rely on a single tactic (e.g.: A single melee attack per turn).
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But your other examples are not as common as creatures whose melee prowess is totally overcomed by crane style.
If a combat-focused character's combat prowess can be completely defeated by Crane Wing, that character should be ashamed of itself. What would it do if it were fighting a flying creature? Cry?
Bring a freaking bow.
I am fine with crane style making you really strong against creatures with single attacks, but the defelction of the attack shoudl not be automathic IMHO.
I don't see any problem with that. It's a nice and unique ability. Easily countered and not even close to being overpowered.
Not character, creatures AKA monsters. I am taking about the situation when a Pc is the one with crane style.But your other examples are not as common as creatures whose melee prowess is totally overcomed by crane style.If a combat-focused character's combat prowess can be completely defeated by Crane Wing, that character should be ashamed of itself. What would it do if it were fighting a flying creature? Cry?
Then good for him. The PC is really good against a T-Rex. So...? Unless the campaign consists of solo boss fights in Jurassic Park, Crane Wing won't be a problem. At all.
Fortunately, the GM has hundreds of other creatures to use. In fact, considering he can create any creature he wants, he has infinite possibilities of NPCs he can throw at his players.
Simply using 2 or more opponents defeats Crane Wing. And if the battle is against a single opponent, then action economy will kill it faster than any single feat (or even feat chain) ever could.
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You want the Crane Style workaround? Use a creature with reach.. monk can't get in there to fight defensively until the big baddy gets his swing.
Or ready an attack to hit the monk if he attempts to attack you. Fighting defensively, and therefore crane style, do not kick in because you have interrupted his action (just like using an AoO on a prone opponent attempting to stand)
Or deny his dexterity bonus to AC. This can be done in a huge number of ways including many spells, grappling, feinting, invisibility?
How about a dirty trick to blind him, or any other sort of blinding attack? How about magical darkness? How about a fight while climbing or in difficult terrain or on a narrow surface?
LOTS of workarounds for crane style. Of course there is no way that you can workaround it with a melee attack.. it is a defense specifically designed against melee attacks.
That is like complaining that you can't use magic missiles to get around a shield spell.
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LOTS of workarounds for crane style. Of course there is no way that you can workaround it with a melee attack.. it is a defense specifically designed against melee attacks.
That is like complaining that you can't use magic missiles to get around a shield spell.
Thats is exactly what I've been trying to say! Thank you, sir! I wish I could have worded it as clearly and succinctly as you did. ^^
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Dude is making up rules and claiming something is "obviously overpowered" because it's popular...
Tsc... This is why martials can't have nice things.
Then good for him. The PC is really good against a T-Rex. So...? Unless the campaign consists of solo boss fights in Jurassic Park, Crane Wing won't be a problem. At all.Actually, Crane Wing would be terrible in that campaign.
Velociraptors have pounce and three primary and one secondary attacks.
That's why I restricted it to "solo boss fights". Because if your solo boss fight in a Jurassic Park campaign is not a motherf@*@%ing T-Rex, you're doing it wrong! ^^
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Wasn't the boss fight in Jurassic Park a pack of velociraptors while the T-Rex saved the humans (albeit not intentionally)?That's why I restricted it to "solo boss fights". Because if your solo boss fight in a Jurassic Park campaign is not a motherf@*@%ing T-Rex, you're doing it wrong! ^^Then good for him. The PC is really good against a T-Rex. So...? Unless the campaign consists of solo boss fights in Jurassic Park, Crane Wing won't be a problem. At all.Actually, Crane Wing would be terrible in that campaign.
Velociraptors have pounce and three primary and one secondary attacks.
Nah... The velociraptors were the PCs. That's why they are so... Clever. And so much more interesting than the human characters,
The campaign ended in a TPK.
:(
Well... at the end of the day Crane Wing is a good feat, and crane style is a good feat. But it is just a one attack swing in the action economy. I can build a fighter with a 40+ AC, and he will get hit less often than the monk with crane style. So is Armor Class overpowered?
I played that fighter, I think I walked around with a 45ish armor class all said and done. For the most part a Balor needed 20s to hit me after his first attack. That, honestly was far more game breaking that crane style.
This idea that its automatic shouldn't mean anything unless you have hated deflect arrows since the inception of 3.0
The concern should be about overall effect. One big bad guy with one big swing? Yeah Crane style is great there. 20 small bad guys with multiple swings? Wow crane style is nearly pointless there. But that 45 Armor Class never loses its luster.
Its not even hard
Dex 20 (+5)
Full Plate +5 (total of +14)
Large Steel Shield +5 (total of +7)
Shield Focus (+1)
Greater Shield Focus (+1)
Amulet of Natural Armor +4
Ring of Protection +4
Total AC = 46
I also had TWF and shield mastery on this character, hence the high dex. Shield focus feats were probably a waste in hindsight, but I took pretty much all the shield feats at the time.