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Hey everyone,
I'll start by saying that I haven't come across any of these sorts of things in my personal games of PFS, and I'm only listing the three types in the title as examples. This isn't spurred by a particular event--I just happened to see another one of these types of characters when looking at poster profiles for fun, leading me to muse. I have, however, heard of all of them, at least in passing, and I've seen in people's profiles that such characters do exist. The basic idea is--what do you do when a character concept violates canon?
Calistrian Priestesses Who Operate Out of Cheliax--
From Cheliax: Empire of Devils, p25 at the bottom: "Some faiths, however, are forbidden under pain of torture and execution. These include the worship of any god of chaos..."
This also goes for clergy of other chaotic deities who operate out of Cheliax (the country, not the faction), but for some reason, probably Zarta Dralneen's manner, Calistrians seem to be most common.
Clerics of Aroden--
James Jacobs has made it clear that you need to worship a (still-extant) deity to get spells in Golarion.
This also goes for clerics of concepts, clerics of Razmir, etc
Paladins of Cayden--
You have to be one alignment step from your patron deity, as stated in the Guide to Org Play (whether you're a paladin or not).
This also goes for other paladins of deities that aren't LG, NG, or LN. Pharasma and Cayden seem most common though.
Others--
There's a huge number of other possibilities, and I only pulled out the three in the title because I thought of those first. I'm not by any means trying to say that those three are special.
The answer might just be to ignore it, I guess. If I ever see something like this, my plan is to alert the player and then just not do anything else about it.
It's probably unlikely, but the real dilemma for me is the situation where you run into two characters at the same table and the canon-breaker collides with the backstory of the other character.
For example, in character introduction:
Character A: "My name is Zena, a humble servant of the Savored Sting, and I run a very pleasurable temple and...adult establishment on Nessus Street in Egorian. Come check me out some time." *wink*
Character B: "My name is Alicia. After my parents were tortured and executed for worshipping Calistria in Cheliax, I was enslaved until freed by the Eagle Knights. Now I serve the cause of freedom and hope to one day earn revenge against Cheliax in Calistria's name. I'm not sure how you're openly running a temple of Calistria in Egorian though..."
Anyway, as I said above, in these situations I would probably just inform the player of the conflict and then not take any sort of action. As a world-setting lore lover, it would annoy me a bit, but it's obviously not worth ruining the entire fun of the player of the lore-breaking character over a minor concern for myself.
I'm just wondering--has anyone wiser than I am thought of a way to do better than that?
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This is a larger concern than just the deities, RE, although that's one of the most common areas that players get stuck.
On the one hand, you want to encourage players "getting into" Golarion and researching the campaign background. It's a lot better than the player whose character is from the Theocracy of the Pale or Daggerdale. And it's better than a generic veteran of some wars against the hobgoblins.
And there's a slippery slope. Would you allow my (human) paladin of Torag? He was legal until Faiths of Purity came out, with its sidebar announcing that Torag doesn't have any non-dwarf paladins. What about an Andoran who served in the border wars against Cheliax, whose backstory invents a new NPC Chelaxian general in charge of the diabolical legions?
How much backstory of the campaign world does the GM have to have available to fact-check the PCs' backgrounds? And how much of it is showing off?
(We have folks on the boards who've claimed that players ought not use established NPCs in their backstories at all, because we don't have the right to use those characters. (cf. dragon-blooded sorcerer from Hermia having Mengkare as an ancestor; or my PC who really is the son of Desna.))
For my part, as a GM, I would encourage players to fit their characters' backstories into the world -- that's one of the strong selling points of the Organized Play campaign -- but allow for exceptional individuals. In the example of the Calistran priest in Egorian, I'd mention the general rule that the temple would run afoul of Chelaxian laws, but suggest ways to make it possible: a powerful noble protector, a discrete clientele. After all, the Hellknights root out corruption in Cheliax, so there has to be some criminal element for them to seek out.
The first one is probably more fluff than mechanics and could be overlooked, but the other two would be breaking the rules and be illegal characters. So if you were to overlook them, you would just be making it harder on them when their next GM tells them they cannot play that character without fixing the illegal parts.
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I've been thinking of a Cleric of Aroden... wondering if I could run a cleric with no spells and no cleric powers...
What, exactly, would you loose? Say the PC is an Old Cleric of Aroden - Elven maybe, ... something like that...
Per PFS rules, you'd lose your domains, spells, and channel. I would think you would still gain your deity's favored weapon. If you want to pull the "still worship Aroden" bit, make it a paladin who served Aroden, and doesn't quite believe he is dead. They do not actually have to have a deity...
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This is a larger concern than just the deities, RE, although that's one of the most common areas that players get stuck.
On the one hand, you want to encourage players "getting into" Golarion and researching the campaign background. It's a lot better than the player whose character is from the Theocracy of the Pale or Daggerdale. And it's better than a generic veteran of some wars against the hobgoblins.
And there's a slippery slope. Would you allow my (human) paladin of Torag? He was legal until Faiths of Purity came out, with its sidebar announcing that Torag doesn't have any non-dwarf paladins. What about an Andoran who served in the border wars against Cheliax, whose backstory invents a new NPC Chelaxian general in charge of the diabolical legions?
How much backstory of the campaign world does the GM have to have available to fact-check the PCs' backgrounds? And how much of it is showing off?
(We have folks on the boards who've claimed that players ought not use established NPCs in their backstories at all, because we don't have the right to use those characters. (cf. dragon-blooded sorcerer from Hermia having Mengkare as an ancestor; or my PC who really is the son of Desna.))
For my part, as a GM, I would encourage players to fit their characters' backstories into the world -- that's one of the strong selling points of the Organized Play campaign -- but allow for exceptional individuals. In the example of the Calistran priest in Egorian, I'd mention the general rule that the temple would run afoul of Chelaxian laws, but suggest ways to make it possible: a powerful noble protector, a discrete clientele. After all, the Hellknights root out corruption in Cheliax, so there has to be some criminal element for them to seek out.
This is a good, thorough post that brings up a lot of other related questions.
We actually had a player in our home (non-PFS) game who made an elven paladin of Torag. After arguing for a while to get a paladin of Cayden, the GM acquiesced on Torag.
However, later Faiths of Purity came out, and additionally, the paladin was not helping dwarven communities or really doing anything Torag-like at all (I think he just wanted to have a deity that let him drink a lot), so the GM asked him to change to Sarenrae, since an elven paladin of Torag, she ruled, would have to be an exceptional individual, as you say above, and this paladin obviously wasn't exceptionally in line with Torag's philosophy.
As for the Chelaxian chaotic-clergy example, I think (unsure here) that all of them I know of are openly chaotic clergy and also work in the Cheliax faction in addition to living in Cheliax, so it's not like their affiliation is unknown. Having a powerful patron as you suggest is the best way to do it, though that patron would need a damn good reason to put their neck out like that (at the least they are probably regularly paying the Blasphemy bribe of 1,000 to 10,000 gp, which is a fortune even for the wealthy).
However, in the case of Calistria, you do also have the trouble of the fact that pretty much Calistria's only commandment to her priestesses (as listed in Faiths of Balance anyway) is to encourage the spread of people's freedom to do as they please and they desire (if they seek it of their own accord), so earning prestige and promoting the nation that brutally tortures and executes members of one's own faith while suppressing that freedom would probably warrant additional explanation.
I guess for the paladin of Cayden (insert Pharasma here as well), one could claim that they are a paladin of no deity who thinks of Cayden as their patron (as long as they weren't using an ability or item that required Cayden as a patron).
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I would say that the only one of those examples that is actually illegal from a mechanical perspective is B.
The Chelaxian priestess of Callistria is easy. As someone said before, there are probably plenty of potential protectors for an illegal church in Egorian, presuming that there is a little bit of discretion involved. Not only is Cheliax famous for its noble feuds, I'm sure that the government is mind-blowingly corrupt in general.
The second is a little bit trickier, but Paladins are not mecahnically differentiated based on their deities, so just make a Paladin, have him take an especial interest in ensuring freedom and freeing those who are imprisoned and don't explicitly say what allowed deity he worships. The same goes for Pharasma. The rules only keep you from playing what you want in name, but I don't think that Cayden would find ant need for stuck up paladin lackeys though.
The first one is probably more fluff than mechanics and could be overlooked, but the other two would be breaking the rules and be illegal characters. So if you were to overlook them, you would just be making it harder on them when their next GM tells them they cannot play that character without fixing the illegal parts.
That sums up my attitude as well: the last two, you can point to a specific line in the "core assumption" that says it's not allowed. The Chelaxian cleric of Calistria and the human paladin of Torag, I'd just shrug and move on (although if there was a scenario that took place within Cheliax, I might point out that advertising your worship of a chaotic god is a bad idea, for instance).
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I would say that the only one of those examples that is actually illegal from a mechanical perspective is B.
The Chelaxian priestess of Callistria is easy. As someone said before, there are probably plenty of potential protectors for an illegal church in Egorian, presuming that there is a little bit of discretion involved. Not only is Cheliax famous for its noble feuds, I'm sure that the government is mind-blowingly corrupt in general.
The second is a little bit trickier, but Paladins are not mecahnically differentiated based on their deities, so just make a Paladin, have him take an especial interest in ensuring freedom and freeing those who are imprisoned and don't explicitly say what allowed deity he worships. The same goes for Pharasma. The rules only keep you from playing what you want in name, but I don't think that Cayden would find ant need for stuck up paladin lackeys though.
This thread is mostly not about mechanical illegality but about setting continuity. Chris's example of "the son of Desna" is another of those, since obviously there's no mechanical rule against that but it can be jarring flavorwise for it to be true.
I just remembered another one of these, and this one I've actually seen--gunslingers with backstories where they invented the gun themself, bought it at a "gun store" in Magnimar, or in some other way did not have their firearms trace back to Alkenstar. From my experience talking to a player of one of these characters, they tend to just not care about the world's setting, to the point where if you bring it up, they just shrug and don't change it (even when all it would require was a minor change, like saying that they briefly traveled to Alkenstar or purchased some smuggled firearms from an expatriate who was fleeing Alkenstar or the Sczarni or something).
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I personally know quite a bit about the setting and I try to incorporate a lot of that into my characters.
I also don't hold it against anyone who does not do this. In other words, just let a player have fun playing at your PF table. You can mention a fact about Golarion to tie into their character, but I don't think that essentially telling people that their characters are illegal for fluff violations is appropriate.
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I personally know quite a bit about the setting and I try to incorporate a lot of that into my characters.
I also don't hold it against anyone who does not do this. In other words, just let a player have fun playing at your PF table. You can mention a fact about Golarion to tie into their character, but I don't think that essentially telling people that their characters are illegal for fluff violations is appropriate.
Indeed. As I mentioned in my first post, that is what I currently plan to continue doing (mention the fact, then move on either way).
I was just wondering if anyone had found a better solution (for the life of me, I can't think of anything, but people on these boards are very creative).
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Awesome Rogue E. for bringin up Alkenstar. I hope to see more content from the Mana Wastes...
Yeah, I brought it up because I had just remembered it. Another one I also just remembered is Taldan nobility of the Taldor faction who are openly clergy of Sarenrae. I think this one comes from the iconic cleric being Sarenrite combined with a huge number of early-season Taldor scenarios.
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Some of the problems stem from the fact that the material restricting some of the builds does not exist in the core assumption. So, it is reasonable for a human paladin of Torag to exist in PFS. Neither the player nor the GM is expected to own the appropriate "faiths" book.
As a player with a paladin who was formerly a follower of Cayden, I have mixed feelings. He was started back when the restrictions on pally's where much lighter. Hell, for a time paladins of Asmodeus were legal! But since the core allows for a strange exception, in that palladins do not actually have to declare a patron, I can "half-ass" it. He respects many of the tenets of Cayden, moreso than the other good deities, but stops short of declaring himself a paladin OF Cayden. He also shows reverence to the other typical paladin deities.
IMO, that is lame, but it's the only way for me to keep him an active character without a complete rebuild. Personally, I think paladins should have to declare a patron, just like inquisitors and clerics. It would eliminate all the arguments about pallys that follow, but not worship Cayden, Pharasma, etc.
As far as a cleric of Aroden, he might be a dead god, but essentially Iomedae took over his portfolio. It is too unreasonable to allow her to represent both and grant divine power to those misguided worshipers who still hope he will one day return.
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Some of the problems stem from the fact that the material restricting some of the builds does not exist in the core assumption. So, it is reasonable for a human paladin of Torag to exist in PFS. Neither the player nor the GM is expected to own the appropriate "faiths" book.
As a player with a paladin who was formerly a follower of Cayden, I have mixed feelings. He was started back when the restrictions on pally's where much lighter. Hell, for a time paladins of Asmodeus were legal! But since the core allows for a strange exception, in that palladins do not actually have to declare a patron, I can "half-ass" it. He respects many of the tenets of Cayden, moreso than the other good deities, but stops short of declaring himself a paladin OF Cayden. He also shows reverence to the other typical paladin deities.
IMO, that is lame, but it's the only way for me to keep him an active character without a complete rebuild. Personally, I think paladins should have to declare a patron, just like inquisitors and clerics. It would eliminate all the arguments about pallys that follow, but not worship Cayden, Pharasma, etc.
As far as a cleric of Aroden, he might be a dead god, but essentially Iomedae took over his portfolio. It is too unreasonable to allow her to represent both and grant divine power to those misguided worshipers who still hope he will one day return.
Excellent points, Bob. I personally agree with you about paladins. In fact, I never realized that paladins did not require a patron until I saw the archetype in the APG that said something akin to "Unlike most paladins, you have chosen a patron deity." I was shocked at the implication, as I pretty much only see paladins with patrons. Maybe it's from the old school flavor where paladins were the select chosen of a particular deity, who had an eye on them even moreso than clerics. Then again, most PFS oracles I've seen seem to have a patron deity and serve a priestly role in their church (in much the same way a druid could, for instance), even though the APG implies that this is rare.
As for the cleric of Aroden, it's agood idea in theory. It could be troublesome if the cleric is True Neutral (allowable for Aroden but not Iomedae), and it does seem to go against canon for the historical event where Iomedae called on Arodenites to embrace her instead, and those who refused continue not to have spells granted.
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My main PFS character is a cleric of Aroden. How do I do it? Simple: All my class levels are in Ranger, but I role-play being a cleric of Aroden. He's in denial that Aroden is dead. He keeps a Wand of Cure Light Wounds up his sleeve so he can call upon his God for healing. He doesn't break any game mechanics or violate the setting's canon.
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My main PFS character is a cleric of Aroden. How do I do it? Simple: All my class levels are in Ranger, but I role-play being a cleric of Aroden. He's in denial that Aroden is dead. He keeps a Wand of Cure Light Wounds up his sleeve so he can call upon his God for healing. He doesn't break any game mechanics or violate the setting's canon.
I am fine with it, but some GM's will rule that everyone at the table knows you really are a ranger, and everyone knows you are delusional. Reflavoring/reskinning is a big no-no for PFS in some areas.
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My main PFS character is a cleric of Aroden. How do I do it? Simple: All my class levels are in Ranger, but I role-play being a cleric of Aroden. He's in denial that Aroden is dead. He keeps a Wand of Cure Light Wounds up his sleeve so he can call upon his God for healing. He doesn't break any game mechanics or violate the setting's canon.
He's in that case a priest of Aroden, and for sure it fits perfectly with everything, no problem at all (Oracles can pull it off even more easily). When I say cleric of Aroden in my posts, I specifically mean a character of the cleric class. To avoid confusion, I've noticed that Paizo in their products using the term 'priest' to encompass spiritual leaders of a particular faith, so I've taken to doing so as well. So for me, cleric as a term is just for the cleric class, and priest is for everyone (including clerics).
Heck, my magus wanted to be a cleric of Sarenrae but his Wisdom is too low, but he still considers himself to be a priest and prepares his magus spells at dawn. Officially in the church hierarchy he is neither, sadly for him.
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I'm not sure, but I don't think Zootcat's re-skinning anything. It's a delusional character, but I don't think the delusion, per se, is obvious to his friends. Spellcraft should easily distinguish between a triggered wand and a cast spell, but I don't think there's any way to quickly distinguish between a ranger and a cleric casting spells.
Now, if he were an elf claiming to be a dwarf or a hobgoblin, that should be obvious.
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I'm not sure, but I don't think Zootcat's re-skinning anything. It's a delusional character, but I don't think the delusion, per se, is obvious to his friends. Spellcraft should easily distinguish between a triggered wand and a cast spell, but I don't think there's any way to quickly distinguish between a ranger and a cleric casting spells.
Now, if he were an elf claiming to be a dwarf or a hobgoblin, that should be obvious.
Yeah, I also agree that he's perfectly fine here. I think you need that Razmir feat from Inner Sea Magic to be good at wand fake-outs, but you still will fool anyone without Spellcraft.
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The calistrian priestess in cheliax is perfectly legal: Just because something is illegal in a country doesn't mean it doesn't go on.
In most countries, i would imagine calistrian temples would have to convince the local authorities that the torture equipment, whips, chains, were strictly for recreational use on willing participants who would be enjoying themselves.
Whereas in cheliax, the calistrian temples have to convince the local authorities that the torture equipment, whips, chains, were strictly for business use on NON willing participants who would NOT be enjoying themselves.
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The calistrian priestess in cheliax is perfectly legal: Just because something is illegal in a country doesn't mean it doesn't go on.
In most countries, i would imagine calistrian temples would have to convince the local authorities that the torture equipment, whips, chains, were strictly for recreational use on willing participants who would be enjoying themselves.
Whereas in cheliax, the calistrian temples have to convince the local authorities that the torture equipment, whips, chains, were strictly for business use on NON willing participants who would NOT be enjoying themselves.
[JOKE]Cheliax is so strongly a fascist state that it makes me immune to Godwins, so...[/JOKE]
It would be like setting up a synagogue in Nazi Germany (if the Nazis had mind-reading and divination magics, with enforcers who can Detect Chaos at will). You probably could get away with it for a time if you were very secretive (though these Calistrian cleric PCs are, as far as I know, all openly Calistrian clerics living in Cheliax), but you are risking a horrible death for yourself and your parishioners. Add to that the fact that if you are also in the Cheliax faction, you are essentially a rabbi doing secret espionage missions to give Hitler the advantage.
Certainly it isn't even close to being illegal in PFS, and I don't think anyone would say otherwise (I certainly wouldn't), but it is certainly jarring without a very good backstory reason. Personally, I'm all for the good backstory reasons allowing for very out-of-cliche characters. If they have one that covers it, I'm all good. It's just, let's say the player has no backstory reason and isn't interested in making one. It's a bit jarring for a world lore nerd like me. I do understand that I'm probably in the top 5% for my interest in world lore, so most people are way less bothered. That's why I would never do more than gently point out the inconsistency if it's just me.
I guess I should put it a better way: What if a player became really bothered by it? My initial reaction is that I would tell the player who is annoyed to just suck it up, since for them it's just one game that grates whereas for the other player it could hurt their whole vision. But that may be my innate GM instinct to ignore my own concerns to make the game more fun for everyone else biasing me against that hypothetical other player who shares my concerns.
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It would be like setting up a synagogue in Nazi Germany (if the Nazis had mind-reading and divination magics, with enforcers who can Detect Chaos at will).
Yes it would. It would be damned hard, but isn't setting impossible goals and doing it what being an adventurer is all about?
You probably could get away with it for a time if you were very secretive (though these Calistrian cleric PCs are, as far as I know, all openly Calistrian clerics living in Cheliax), but you are risking a horrible death for yourself and your parishioners. Add to that the fact that if you are also in the Cheliax faction, you are essentially a rabbi doing secret espionage missions to give Hitler the advantage.
All so you can get closer to the top and change things.. or take someone out. If some random person in a black mask swoops in through the window and stabs the paracountess thats not revenge its just death. If someone the paracountess loves and trusts slips a slow acting poison in with their sweet words to watch them die slowly while you mock their affections... then its revenge.
I can see enough different ways to justify that one in character that it isn't even close to being ban hammered.
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My main PFS character is a cleric of Aroden. How do I do it? Simple: All my class levels are in Ranger, but I role-play being a cleric of Aroden. He's in denial that Aroden is dead. He keeps a Wand of Cure Light Wounds up his sleeve so he can call upon his God for healing. He doesn't break any game mechanics or violate the setting's canon.
Keep doing the good work, Zootcat. I'll be back to my former glory soon enough. Just need to remember where I put my keys to getting into the Starstone...
Did I leave them in Cheliax? Wait...no...I was battling demons, I think when I last saw them. Mendev? Taldor? Wait. Why would I want to go to that depressing place?
Note to self: when I come back, I don't want to be the God of Taldans anymore. That place is just...wrong.
I am fine with it, but some GM's will rule that everyone at the table knows you really are a ranger, and everyone knows you are delusional. Reflavoring/reskinning is a big no-no for PFS in some areas.
*sigh*
I pity the players that have to put with GMs who don't see the big picture, who need to put classes/roles on players rather than prioritizing character and flavor and working with the players.
*shudder*
I really hope that doesn't happen...but I'm sure it does.
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I think the best you can achieve in regard to canon is - educate the players.
I do have a large map of the Inner Sea Region on my wall. I tend to point out ahead of every scenario where the group is headed. It also comes in useful when explaining factions to new players or when new characters are created.
I did come across a few incidents during my time as GM
One of my player had chosen to be a cleric of Rovagug. He had no clue what Rovagug was standing for - and worse - he played rather neutral good and channeled positive energy.
When asked why I got the answer - because of the Greataxe as favoured weapon. It took me some reading of the Dwarven Pantheon and Gods and Magic but we found a more fitting Dwarven God who had the domains he had chosen and also had the Greataxe as favoured weapon.
This happened around a week or two after Dwarfs of Golarion appeared. A new player to PFS had as a mission to ensure to get something personal from a rescued dwarf.
So the pure prisoner gets rescued and the character tries to cut of part of the beard (it doesn't hurt - it's just hair). With several GMs and readers of the Dwarfs of Golarion at the table this was a dilemma. Especially as the Paladin noticed it and felt the character was torturing the dwarf. Effectivly preventing the mission to be fulfilled.
The player was informed about the value of a dwarven beard and that the action just was a no-go. But all around the table helped to get the mission done later in a different and canon legit way.
I think the way forward is to educate and to help. Most mistakes happen due to lack of knowledge.
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It would be like setting up a synagogue in Nazi Germany (if the Nazis had mind-reading and divination magics, with enforcers who can Detect Chaos at will).Yes it would. It would be damned hard, but isn't setting impossible goals and doing it what being an adventurer is all about?
You probably could get away with it for a time if you were very secretive (though these Calistrian cleric PCs are, as far as I know, all openly Calistrian clerics living in Cheliax), but you are risking a horrible death for yourself and your parishioners. Add to that the fact that if you are also in the Cheliax faction, you are essentially a rabbi doing secret espionage missions to give Hitler the advantage.All so you can get closer to the top and change things.. or take someone out. If some random person in a black mask swoops in through the window and stabs the paracountess thats not revenge its just death. If someone the paracountess loves and trusts slips a slow acting poison in with their sweet words to watch them die slowly while you mock their affections... then its revenge.
I can see enough different ways to justify that one in character that it isn't even close to being ban hammered.
BNW--this has never been about "being ban-hammered", for any character (I think you're the first to mention it). I don't think that should be even remotely on the table.
Also, that idea of the extremely hidden secretly-Calistrian character who wants to assassinate Zarta Dralneen is awesome. If I didn't already have a Cheliax character, I might even have yoinked it.
However, my OP is not about the perfectly in-world example that you gave above. It's about the characters whose vision of Golarion has them (to use the Calistria cleric as the example again) as an open cleric of Calistria with a big open brothel/temple in Egorian (or replace it with the Taldan noble who has a big temple of Sarenrae openly in Oppara or whatever else you like).
I probably should have said this much more clearly, since the misconception seems to keep cropping up--the only characters I'm considering for my query in the OP are the ones who don't have in-world justification, like your great justifications in the post I'm quoting here or like Zootcat's cool ranger who considers himself one of Aroden's last priests.
I'm only talking about the ones who don't have any such justifications. And they do exist. Often they just don't care so much about the world continuity as much as their own character concept, so it would be hurting their conception of the character to adjust it.
This is why it's such a difficult topic to deal with via any other means than just mentioning it once and leaving it at that, and why I'd like to hear about any other ideas if you have anything better. If you could convince these players to adopt justifications like the one in your post, that is one way, of course.
So what would you do if they didn't have any justification? What if their honest answer was "Zarta Dralneen's teasing letters made me want to play an equally-salacious cleric of Calistria who lives in Cheliax, worships Calistria openly, and serves the faction so I can respond to her letters in kind. I'm aware that the worship of Calistria is punishable by death in Cheliax, but I don't care. It's irrelevant for this scenario unless we're playing in Cheliax, right? And having me arrested even if it was in Cheliax by adding a guard encounter or something would be changing the scenario. Just let me have my fun--I assure you that I'm a good roleplayer and I'll make the table more fun, I just don't care about Golarion or continuity if it gets in the way of my ability to play the character I want."
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*rolls eyes* zombie aroden }: P
*sigh*
I pity the players that have to put with GMs who don't see the big picture, who need to put classes/roles on players rather than prioritizing character and flavor and working with the players.
*shudder*
I really hope that doesn't happen...but I'm sure it does.
You know for a fact it does happen.
So what would you do if they didn't have any justification? What if their honest answer was "Zarta Dralneen's teasing letters made me want to play an equally-salacious cleric of Calistria who lives in Cheliax, worships Calistria openly, and serves the faction so I can respond to her letters in kind. I'm aware that the worship of Calistria is punishable by death in Cheliax, but I don't care. It's irrelevant for this scenario unless we're playing in Cheliax, right? And having me arrested even if it was in Cheliax by adding a guard encounter or something would be changing the scenario. Just let me have my fun--I assure you that I'm a good roleplayer and I'll make the table more fun, I just don't care about Golarion or continuity if it gets in the way of my ability to play the character I want."
I think it basically comes down to this: If you're worried that this situation may happen, it might be best to decide what you prefer before the players create their characters. If you want everything to fit with Golarion lore then explain that to the players from the start. That way, they shouldn't be surprised if you point out problems with their backgrounds.
If you're fine with everything simply going by the core rules rather than Golarion lore, then state that at the beginning too so that people know to not take such things too seriously.
Personally though, I have to wonder how someone who knows the names 'Calistria' and 'Cheliax' would care so much about such a character concept but not care that the character concept would end up only getting the character killed. If the person really cared that little about the lore, why wouldn't he/she simply choose another god or base the cleric out of some other area?
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Personally though, I have to wonder how someone who knows the names 'Calistria' and 'Cheliax' would care so much about such a character concept but not care that the character concept would end up only getting the character killed. If the person really cared that little about the lore, why wouldn't he/she simply choose another god or base the cleric out of some other area?
You can pick a god by domains, out of the players hand book off a chart, and then pick a faction based on either their appearance in first steps or the list of factions from the book. To be honest if you didn't know calistria worship was banned in cheliax and were basing your ideas strictly off the Core rulebook and your first meeting with the paracountess it really would seem like a perfect match.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So what would you do if they didn't have any justification? What if their honest answer was "Zarta Dralneen's teasing letters made me want to play an equally-salacious cleric of Calistria who lives in Cheliax, worships Calistria openly, and serves the faction so I can respond to her letters in kind. I'm aware that the worship of Calistria is punishable by death in Cheliax, but I don't care. It's irrelevant for this scenario unless we're playing in Cheliax, right?
Sort of. It's unlikely that you'll, say, run into Hellknights, but possible.
And having me arrested even if it was in Cheliax by adding a guard encounter or something would be changing the scenario.
Full stop. No. By breaking the law, the player has gone off the reservation. The GM isn't breaking any rules by letting the society respond to that. Let's say the party is in a busy Katapesh market, and one of the PCs just starts killing people. Is that player seriously arguing that the GM can't have the authorities arrest him?
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So what would you do if they didn't have any justification? What if their honest answer was "Zarta Dralneen's teasing letters made me want to play an equally-salacious cleric of Calistria who lives in Cheliax, worships Calistria openly, and serves the faction so I can respond to her letters in kind. I'm aware that the worship of Calistria is punishable by death in Cheliax, but I don't care. It's irrelevant for this scenario unless we're playing in Cheliax, right?Sort of. It's unlikely that you'll, say, run into Hellknights, but possible.
And having me arrested even if it was in Cheliax by adding a guard encounter or something would be changing the scenario.Full stop. No. By breaking the law, the player has gone off the reservation. The GM isn't breaking any rules by letting the society respond to that. Let's say the party is in a busy Katapesh market, and one of the PCs just starts killing people. Is that player seriously arguing that the GM can't have the authorities arrest him?
I don't know--I'm honestly making up the argument for a hypothetical player here. Let's assume this hypothetical player thinks that if their PC doesn't do anything actively disruptive or that fits a commonsense definition of illegal (like the murdering you mention) that they shouldn't be arrested based on in-world canon. Obviously, this isn't my point of view. If that part is too distracting from the hypothetical argument as a whole (which for the most part is more of a method-actor player conflict with a more setting-focused style, or a heart vs spade if you like that brand of player categorization), pretend I didn't write in that one sentence.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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Hypotheticals are easy.
You are in Rahadoum and are a cleric walking around in robes and a great big holy symbol. Any NPC would certainly have you arrested.
You are in Cheliax and are an elf openly sporting a Calistrian holy symbol making no effort to hide it. Many NPCs would turn you in just to see you tortured.
Once we put "but if"s on the hypothetical questions, then it becomes a judge call that we on the internet are not able to make. If after telling a guy that people are pointing at you with that holy symbol out, they make no move to be a little smart then I would certainly have a reaction from NPCs.
If he tucked the holy symbol away, and hid his ears under a cap, then I would probably ignore the display if it had nothing to do with the plot.
If a judge misses it or ignores it, then oh well.
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Yeah, I didn't know about the banning of Calistrian stuff in Cheliax until this thread. Go figure, eh?I hope you're not wandering the streets of Oppara with your over-zealous cleric of Sarenrae ;-)
No, just fighting undead in the opera house there. ;)
Heck, even if you have 3 "legit" PCs, and the NPC to fill out the table is Kyra, because they need a cleric to fill out the party, what do you do in this scenario?
Even better, how about a party of Paladins, Clerics, and Inquisitors going into the Heresy of Man series?
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Hypotheticals are easy.
You are in Rahadoum and are a cleric walking around in robes and a great big holy symbol. Any NPC would certainly have you arrested.
Right, but that's something any PC should know that the player might not. (there is probably a sign at the border)
You are in Cheliax and are an elf openly sporting a Calistrian holy symbol making no effort to hide it. Many NPCs would turn you in just to see you tortured.
Ok, but how many source books would you have to have read to know that calistrian worship was outlawed there? I don't see anything about it in the inner sea world guide, and its not self evident that Asmodeous would outright ban calistria worship.
Once we put "but if"s on the hypothetical questions, then it becomes a judge call that we on the internet are not able to make. If after telling a guy that people are pointing at you with that holy symbol out, they make no move to be a little smart then I would certainly have a reaction from NPCs.
Which any DM should be able to adjuticate from adventure to adventure.
But what do you tell a player who says they have a priest of Aroden? Sorry, the line has been disconected, please press 3 to convert to Iomade or no spells for you?
But what do you tell a player who says they have a priest of Aroden? Sorry, the line has been disconected, please press 3 to convert to Iomade or no spells for you?
Simple. You show them the list of approved deities for PFS play and that Aroden is not on the list. Done.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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(Really, Aroden is a better choice for the novice player than is Thor.)
Enevhar, I agree that that's where a GM starts. But leaving it at that is likely to drive the player away from the campaign. If she sat down at my table, I would ask her what about Aroden she likes? Would Erastil, Abadar, or Iomenae work as well?
And for those who are suggesting that the GM should let it pass, I'd suggest that the easiest time to educate the player and get her involved with the campaign world is right when she begins. Four sessions later, when some meanie GM tells her that her cleric has no spells or domain powers, and that switching to a living god requires an atonement spell she can't afford, is a heavier blow.
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(Really, Aroden is a better choice for the novice player than is Thor.)
Enevhar, I agree that that's where a GM starts. But leaving it at that is likely to drive the player away from the campaign. If she sat down at my table, I would ask her what about Aroden she likes? Would Erastil, Abadar, or Iomenae work as well?
And for those who are suggesting that the GM should let it pass, I'd suggest that the easiest time to educate the player and get her involved with the campaign world is right when she begins. Four sessions later, when some meanie GM tells her that her cleric has no spells or domain powers, and that switching to a living god requires an atonement spell she can't afford, is a heavier blow.
This is very good advice, and I personally try to give some world setting flavor to new PFS players when I can (even if my slots sometimes run a few minutes long when I do). Show the map, explain the Society (and the Consortium), explain Absalom, explain Aroden, the Starstone, and how the Age of Lost Omens began.
Sometimes, however, the player isn't a new player. In that case, such a tact is less effective.
As a side note, I knew when I posted this topic that it could be potentially divisive, so thank you everyone so much for keeping it constructive and helpful so far!
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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You are in Cheliax and are an elf openly sporting a Calistrian holy symbol making no effort to hide it. Many NPCs would turn you in just to see you tortured.Ok, but how many source books would you have to have read to know that calistrian worship was outlawed there? I don't see anything about it in the inner sea world guide, and its not self evident that Asmodeous would outright ban calistria worship.
Exactly zero. A DM should know that, if not that's ok, you play on.
You are in a nation that is Lawful Evil. The obvious issue, even if i knew nothing about Cheliax except alignment is that law and order are number one, and justice takes a back seat. In a lawful good nation, a Callistrian should get a similar but less capital punishment centered reception, as most moral upright nations would not allow a chaotic brothel to be out in the open either.
Let's move the setting to Taldor. Not as much law and order but tolerance and decadence. The visitors to the brothel may sneak in but the government won't arrest and execute people. Heck, Duke Bob the Guard Overlord likes his feet ticked by a redhead elf girl, but not at his desk.
It comes down to immersion. If the module says, "find the McGuffin!" we are not spending most of it on the trial of Bee Boy the Callistrian Cleric of Cheliax. That character should find a sense of peril, and a good judge can drop that into the stew of a good session, but it is not the main course.
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Exactly zero. A DM should know that
Malarky.
I can think of at least 10 reasonable responses for a lawful evil empire to have towards other faiths besides outright banning them. Using them to your own ends and corrupting them from within until they're a mockery of all they stood for seems like a much more lawful evil response than just banning them.
Just banning them... isn't machavelian enough. To be reaaaaly lawful evil you want them to technically be allowed but practically not allowed, or better yet while trying to navigate the legal maze you lead them closer and closer to your views.
You don't ban the temple of calistria. You let them build it, you let them build their flock, and then you send in your people to get into a management position. Once there you start incorporating a few succubi into the rituals and.. ahem.. worship. You play up the revenge aspects of Calistria, and before you know it you have a bunch of half demon Geisha assassins for hire.
Now not only can you Veto who they get to kill or not, but you then get to blackmail anyone they do an assassination for for breaking the law, not to mention all the parishioners of your illegal church, PLUS you get the inside scoop on whatever confession process the Calistrians have.
Not to mention that you've now not covertly identified potential troublemakers in the form of the flock of "calistria" , but they regularly gather together in one place where you can slaughter them all in one fell swoop when they've outlived their usefulness.
-The Canon for the setting comes from a lot of sources. Not everyone has the cash to hunt down and read all of them and the specifics are not self evident.
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--spoiler omitted--
Even better, how about a party of Paladins, Clerics, and Inquisitors going into the Heresy of Man series?
Fortunately, most of Heresy talks place in locales where your divine support is not going to be seen by the masses. But when you are around the general population, you play from the "greater of two evils" position. Flaunting your deity is going to earn you a cell, at minimum, if not execution. Unless you're an Int 5 dolt, it should be clear that keeping a low profile and continuing your mission is going to serve the greater good.
If your character is such a zealot that they cannot comprehend stowing their holy symbol or restricting their spellcasting activities, then there are bigger problems and I question why the society would have admitted you in the first place. A good portion of society missions involved subterfuge and stealth. During the initiation process, I'm sure they create a dossier on the PC to determine if they have the skills and psychology to be a pathfinder.
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--spoiler omitted--** spoiler omitted **
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My main PFS character is a cleric of Aroden. How do I do it? Simple: All my class levels are in Ranger, but I role-play being a cleric of Aroden. He's in denial that Aroden is dead. He keeps a Wand of Cure Light Wounds up his sleeve so he can call upon his God for healing. He doesn't break any game mechanics or violate the setting's canon.The only problem I have with the believability of this character is that I'm sure Aroden was dead before he was ever born. It's one thing to get obsessive about a god that died while you were alive but before you were born???
Aroden's only been dead for 100? years, so dwarf, elf, or half elf could still be alive and kicking.
He could also be from a strongly believing family. The beliefs you pick up in youth tend to be stronger than the ones you acquire as an adult.