So I'm interested in making a Summoner with a mountable Dragon Eidolon as a potential character for the future but I'm not entirely sure how to do it.
I was thinking of going Human or Half Elf. Stats are an array as follows 10, 14, 15, 14, 13, 15. So starting score would be 17 in Cha I guess with the 10 in Str maybe?
First feat would be Extra Evolution or Resilient Eidolon depending on whether I'd be better off starting him at large or not I think.
Mostly I'd like the Eidolon to do the fighting while the Summoner does the support the riding is just for out of combat, although I'm open to the idea of being a dragon rider who jumps into combat while mounted just not sure of the viability on that.
So any advice?
Gragahga;lsdhg ...
Just realized pretty much all of the Evolutions are level locked which pretty much means the Eidolon is going to be useless deadweight that doesn't even fit the idea until level 5+. /sigh
Well if anyone can think of a way to make the Eidolon a good combat choice while looking like a Dragon aka flying resisting breathing large creature please let me know.
Quad form, fly speed, mount evolution, tail... that's really all you need for appearance's sake. As you level, pick up Natural Armor, increase to Large size, elemental attacks, tail slap, wing buffet, breath weapon, etc. as they become available.
Half-Elves are the best summoners, getting an extra evolution point every 4 levels for their favored class bonus. Mounted combat could work well. Take the Ancestral Arms alternate Half-Elf racial trait and get yourself Lance proficiency for free instead of Skill Focus, then take the mounted combat feats. Put one of those 15s in Strength, the other in Charisma, and you'll be good to go.
Oh, and don't start of with Large Size at level 1. It's expensive, and low levels tend to pit you against goblins, kobolds, etc., who have cramped quarters that'll nerf you into the ground.
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You can't start with large size at level one. You need to be leve 8 to take that evolution.
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Jackissocool wrote: You can't start with large size at level one. You need to be leve 8 to take that evolution. Yeah noticed that also noticed that wings are also level locked for 5+ which is why I can't get him to look draconic until 5 and not like a somewhat mature dragon until 8 or 9 or whatever when he gets large likewise he can't be ridden until that level as well so yeah ...
Wait for SGG's Dracomancer?
I am doing the same in the homebrew campaign I'm in currently. I took the aquatic baseform since we're doing a campaign on ships, and it had better stats. But. Now I have to spend evolution points on legs and wings, etc. But a good way to look at it is this: As an adventurer, you don't start off large and powerful. You grow to that point and then everyone who thought you were weak and useless suddenly sees a powerful hero. The same goes for your dragon Eidolon. Everyone saw a non-dragon-esque creature with no flight or breath attack or in my case, a snake-like creature with gills...later they see a brilliant dragon with flight and a firey breath attack.
CoBAWolf wrote: I am doing the same in the homebrew campaign I'm in currently. I took the aquatic baseform since we're doing a campaign on ships, and it had better stats. But. Now I have to spend evolution points on legs and wings, etc. But a good way to look at it is this: As an adventurer, you don't start off large and powerful. You grow to that point and then everyone who thought you were weak and useless suddenly sees a powerful hero. The same goes for your dragon Eidolon. Everyone saw a non-dragon-esque creature with no flight or breath attack or in my case, a snake-like creature with gills...later they see a brilliant dragon with flight and a firey breath attack. That's true but most of the time the general idea of the character is set up before and the jist of it is there at the beginning a human rogue is a human and usually a rogue at the beginning sure he might not be a legendary assassin but he's still sneaky and stabby.
If you play a small race you don't need to have a large Eidolon to use as a mount. Both Gnome's and Halflings get a bonus to CHA so that is a plus. Also as a medium creature you can use it anywhere.
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gnomersy wrote: Jackissocool wrote: You can't start with large size at level one. You need to be leve 8 to take that evolution. Yeah noticed that also noticed that wings are also level locked for 5+ which is why I can't get him to look draconic until 5 and not like a somewhat mature dragon until 8 or 9 or whatever when he gets large likewise he can't be ridden until that level as well so yeah ... There's no reason he can't have wings. They just can't be functional. No fly speed, no wing slaps, nothing granted by the Wings evolution itself. But the cosmetic appearance of the beast is up to you. So you could give it little winglets, for example. Start it out like a hatchling, and have it "grow up" with you, coming into its powers as it grows.
Me, I'm miffed that you can't give an Eidolon a single arm rather than two arms. There goes my serpentine Eidolon with two legs, a pair of wing-a-lings, a big beefy arm sticking out of its back, consummate Vs for natural armor, and breath weapon (burninate).
Super Genius Games. Their developer works for Paizo quite often.
blahpers wrote:
There's no reason he can't have wings. They just can't be functional. No fly speed, no wing slaps, nothing granted by the Wings evolution itself. But the cosmetic appearance of the beast is up to you. So you could give it little winglets, for example. Start it out like a hatchling, and have it "grow up" with you, coming into its powers as it grows.
Me, I'm miffed that you can't give an Eidolon a single arm rather than two arms. There goes my serpentine Eidolon with two legs, a pair of wing-a-lings, a big beefy arm sticking out of its back, consummate Vs for natural armor, and breath weapon (burninate).
You do raise a valid point, how dare you?! =P
I guess mostly it's just that the level locks feel unnecessary on many of the abilities I can understand limiting large and huge because they make a big difference but wings doesn't seem like it would be OP at level 1 even with wing slap thrown in on top of it and it's just a case where I feel like they added limitations just for the sake of having limitations and that's not cool it's less important since you can just randomly change everything about the evolutions when you level but still.
Mind you who wouldn't give you a single beefy arm?
I just statted up a lvl 7 Summoner with a dragonlike eidolon for my own game.
I chose Quadruped: wings, reach (bite), mount, some skill bonuses, resist fire and cold, and tremorsense. Blindsense is still beyond my reach, and I figured the multiattacks weren't worth the points in my melee-heavy group. Still, cosmetically he summons a dragon mount.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Eidolon w/(functional) wings = unlimited fly spell for small summoner; that's why it's not available until 5th level.
I'm not sure about why the Large evolution isn't available until 8th (since druids can get Large companions at 4th level). If I had to guess, it would be because summoners get enlarge person on their spell list and can use it on their eidolon with Share Spells.
Dragonchess Player wrote: Eidolon w/(functional) wings = unlimited fly spell for small summoner; that's why it's not available until 5th level.
I'm not sure about why the Large evolution isn't available until 8th (since druids can get Large companions at 4th level). If I had to guess, it would be because summoners get enlarge person on their spell list and can use it on their eidolon with Share Spells.
I'm willing to bet that's exactly why, sir.
As an addition to this thread if anyone is still reading are there any particularly good feats for an Eidolon focused Summoner to get?
Dragonchess Player wrote: Eidolon w/(functional) wings = unlimited fly spell for small summoner; that's why it's not available until 5th level.
I'm not sure about why the Large evolution isn't available until 8th (since druids can get Large companions at 4th level). If I had to guess, it would be because summoners get enlarge person on their spell list and can use it on their eidolon with Share Spells.
Didn't notice this before but there's a specific clause to allow enlarge to work on the eidolon even though they aren't humanoid so I guess that's something(Although the stat benefits for the evolution are much better).
As for unlimited flight ... so? I mean really assuming you got it at level 1 you have 3 points 2 for fly and 1 for Mount you are now flying with your eidolon who is extremely fragile with a low AC (somewhere around 12) low hp (around 6) and you are also fragile.
Now if you could rain destruction down on the enemy that might be an issue but the summoner spell list doesn't include destructive raining and they have so few spells per day that you shouldn't really worry about that which means they're pretty much just floating around and maybe plinking away with a bow but if they run into anyone else with a bow they just kill the eidolon and watch the summoner fall to his death.
Flight at 1st level is one of those big no-nos that needs to be handled very carefully as it trivializes many, many plots and encounters.
Summoner is already in the top 3 strongest classes; no need for more buffs.
Dragonchess Player wrote: Eidolon w/(functional) wings = unlimited fly spell for small summoner; that's why it's not available until 5th level.
I'm not sure about why the Large evolution isn't available until 8th (since druids can get Large companions at 4th level). If I had to guess, it would be because summoners get enlarge person on their spell list and can use it on their eidolon with Share Spells.
That's pretty much the reason. Otherwise we'd be seeing HUGE Eidolons at level 1.
I can't really help you with your summoner, but Ultimate Magic had small creature suggestions for eidolons. Here's what they have for a dragon:
26 points:
Base Form quadruped;
Primary Evolutions
- claws
- tail
- tail slap;
Secondary Evolutions
- basic magic (any)
- blindsense
- breath weapon
- flight
- frightful presence
- immunity
- magic attacks
- minor magic (any)
- spell resistance
- wing buffet
Feel free to replace basic and minor magic by large, provided you take Extra Evolution as one of your feats.
Cheapy wrote: Flight at 1st level is one of those big no-nos that needs to be handled very carefully as it trivializes many, many plots and encounters.
Summoner is already in the top 3 strongest classes; no need for more buffs.
I haven't seen alot of encounters that would be trivialized by one flying person but there might be some, although it could definitely derail plots.
And as far as I can tell the complaints about Summoners on these forums are pretty much all about synthesists or summon monster focused Summoners.
gnomersy wrote: Dragonchess Player wrote: Eidolon w/(functional) wings = unlimited fly spell for small summoner; that's why it's not available until 5th level.
As for unlimited flight ... so? I mean really assuming you got it at level 1 you have 3 points 2 for fly and 1 for Mount you are now flying with your eidolon who is extremely fragile with a low AC (somewhere around 12) low hp (around 6) and you are also fragile.
Now if you could rain destruction down on the enemy that might be an issue but the summoner spell list doesn't include destructive raining and they have so few spells per day that you shouldn't really worry about that which means they're pretty much just floating around and maybe plinking away with a bow but if they run into anyone else with a bow they just kill the eidolon and watch the summoner fall to his death.
Flight at first level and just summon eagles. From 200 feet in the sky. Each combat. Rinse and repeat.
Flight just gives you so many movement advantages that early-level monsters and characters can't overcome.
Attrition wrote:
Flight at first level and just summon eagles. From 200 feet in the sky. Each combat. Rinse and repeat.
Flight just gives you so many movement advantages that early-level monsters and characters can't overcome. Except you can't use summons with the Eidolon out so fly 200 feet in the sky and do nothing each combat?
gnomersy wrote: Attrition wrote:
Flight at first level and just summon eagles. From 200 feet in the sky. Each combat. Rinse and repeat.
Flight just gives you so many movement advantages that early-level monsters and characters can't overcome. Except you can't use summons with the Eidolon out so fly 200 feet in the sky and do nothing each combat? Was thinking Master Summoner, but fair enough - I'd still think shooting a bow from that height with basically no way of taking damage yourself is kinda broken :)
Attrition wrote:
Was thinking Master Summoner, but fair enough - I'd still think shooting a bow from that height with basically no way of taking damage yourself is kinda broken :) Yeah but that does assume your DM is willing to sit back and never throw a humanoid with a bow or magic at you.
And if he does well the 200 foot fall will be very painful since the Eidolon is a very soft target unless you have the natural armor upgrade and toughness and even then he's still only as good as your average level 1 character in terms of ability to survive and if he dies it kills two people so if the DM is feeling spiteful because you're trolling him well it would only make sense for the enemies to target you.
And that's why summoners with flying mounts take Feather Fall.
I would like to see more base forms. Many things just don't fit in the four base forms provided.
Maybe something for an ostrich or emu form, like:
Avian biped
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs), low-light vision, can select the mount and pounce evolutions.
Enjoy your giant chicken.
Vendle wrote: And that's why summoners with flying mounts take Feather Fall. 'And that's why you always leave a note'
Plus, i'm no syentist here, but put me way up high, and you way down low, and we both shoot at each other, and I think I'll win that contest every time. I'll just fly up past your maximum distance and still pepper you (assuming the DM is a syentist and takes all that syence into account).
Or at least I'm pretty sure you won't win - we could both just run out of arrows.
Though I guess you'd have all my arrows on the ground and yours that fell back to the ground, so there is that.
I do wish there were solid rules for three-dimensional combat in Pathfinder--things that cover, e.g., Attrition's scenario. As written, you'd have zero chance of hitting someone straight down, and you'd have equal range straight up as you would for someone at the same height with an open sky.
If you take tentacles they could be reskinned to wings, and become wings officially later. Shrink person, enlarge person or a small character as has already been mentioned. I am amused by the ray of frost or acid splash (via basic magic evolution) being a 'breath weapon' :)
With climb will look like you are flying if you are in a dungeon :)
Serpentine: tentacle 2x, mount, basic magic (ray of frost) (4 ev points.
gnomersy wrote: As an addition to this thread if anyone is still reading are there any particularly good feats for an Eidolon focused Summoner to get? Summoner's call and extra evolution are the only two. Higher levels the UM gives a few more. I think summoners would benefit from some of the metamagic feats that add conditions to a target. That is not eidelon based per se, but your eidelon can be built to take advantage of those conditions.
Attrition wrote:
'And that's why you always leave a note'
Plus, i'm no syentist here, but put me way up high, and you way down low, and we both shoot at each other, and I think I'll win that contest every time. I'll just fly up past your maximum distance and still pepper you (assuming the DM is a syentist and takes all that syence into account).
Or at least I'm pretty sure you won't win - we could both just run out of arrows.
Though I guess you'd have all my arrows on the ground and yours that fell back to the ground, so there is that.
This is fantasy we don't like yer science round her'.
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