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According to my younger brother: "Small Sized Rogues cannot sneak attack an ogre" he claims this is one of varying reasons why he feels rogue is a worthless dumb class. "Because the DM can easily deny one sneak attack".(Note: My younger brother feels no class but druid, cleric, and wizard are viable. so this is coming from one of THOSE guys). His argument is based off of this in rogue sneak attack description: "The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.". Basically according to him the ogre is SO BIG. It's like a dragon in comparison to a human, and so the small sized rogue (pretty much halfling, gnome, ratfolk, etc small sized races) cannot sneak attack an ogre with a melee simply because he feels they cannot reach the vitals. I ask him for where it says that specifically, he just insistently points to that particular sentence. The other part of the arguement is comparing ogre size to Small Size reach. According to acrobatics with a vertical jump, the small sized creature can only go 4ft above the ground. the ogre overall is 10ft tall. Now he did not take into account, arm length, and weapon length. When those were brought up he just said "It's two weapon fighting" which, doesn't mean anything at all. He also said like that, there is no way the rogue can roll a full attack roll by attacking that way.
Now, keep in mind NONE OF THIS; is actually in writing. It just says they have to be able to reach the vital, I assume that this is for creatures that levitate above the ground out of the small sized rogues reach or something that is obviously very massive. So I figure to end this by just asking Paizo boards and maybe Paizo themselves about how they feel on this. Can a Halfling rogue sneak attack an ogre with melee? or is it really not capable of doing so?
I fear your brother has munchkinitis. Let him grow up for a few years, and he'll get it. Hopefully.
I fear your brother has munchkinitis. Let him grow up for a few years, and he'll get it. Hopefully.
What do you mean by that? Also what about the question at hand? How do you feel on Halfling Rogue vs ogre. does the rogue get a sneak attack via melee?
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The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Emphasis mine. The bold section clarifies the previous section. Regardless of that, though, how does one point out a "vital spot"? A vital area could be the Achilles Heel, a special nerve between the toes, the back of the knee... Vital /= Heart/Stomach/Brain, though those are viable options.
Also, there is a level of suspension of disbelief within the game mechanics. It doesn't matter if a particularly short halfling is attacking a creature 6' in the air, RAW he can still hit it, and can still it it in a Vital Spot if he meets the sneak attack criteria.
That kind of hurt to read... not because of you Baron, but your brother...
And yes, as long as the ogre is either A) Flanked or B) has lost his Dex bonus for AC, then he can sneak attack. Only specific creature types (like oozes) and special abilities that prevent flanking, like Uncanny Dodge, prevent Sneak Attacks.
Yes it can sneak attack. There are vital spots throughout the body. I am sure the the ogre's femorial artery which is in its thigh can still be reach. I an sure the ogre's genitalia can also be reached. ACL's are also not a fun place to be stabbed at. Even being 10 feet tall does nothing to save the ogre.
In short your brother has no idea what he talking about with regard to the sneak attack rule. He also is behind the power curve if he can't make another class work that is not a full caster.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.Emphasis mine. The bold section clarifies the previous section. Regardless of that, though, how does one point out a "vital spot"? A vital area could be the Achilles Heel, a special nerve between the toes, the back of the knee... Vital /= Heart/Stomach/Brain, though those are viable options.
Also, there is a level of suspension of disbelief within the game mechanics. It doesn't matter if a particularly short halfling is attacking a creature 6' in the air, RAW he can still hit it, and can still it it in a Vital Spot if he meets the sneak attack criteria.
I'd imagine he is cutting the ogre's tendons. Or worse, jumping up to attack his groin area. Hamstringing the ogre is doable.
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Also, the only things that prevent flank-oriented sneak attack is Improved Uncanny Dodge, Fortification, any amount of concealment, and racial traits (like Elementals.) There may be more, but they elude me at the moment.
And as far as not being able to target a "vital spot" on any typical humanoid below the waist, there's PLENTY of places that being stabbed/slashed/bludgeoned(especially) would hurt more than other places.
The writers of 3.5 might agree with your brother as to the interpretation of reaching a vital spot.
Sneak attacks are possible only when the attacker can reach the target's vital spots. If you're limited to beating the foe about the ankles, you can't make sneak attacks against him.Source
For some reason, I seem to recall it was 3 size categories instead of two though. Your brothers ideas aren't completely baseless.
Pathfinder has opened up a world of sneak attacking opportunities for rogues though, so i doubt its supposed to work that way now.
Wow, all these replies. That was fast. To make this easier on myself cause i'd probably quote a ton of ya and i'm still fairly new to these forums, infact I made an account mostly to get play tests and things and cause hey I might buy something. Because PDF's are useful. However on the topic at hand...
@BigNorseWolf
I'm quite sure 3.5 writers would agree with him (granted they really couldn't write for kobold feces but...) and even by 3.5 standards he's wrong too huh?
@Orduade
Yeah that's what I thought. "Vitals" wouldn't be limited to simply "Organs". Tendons, genitals, special nerves etc.
@WraithStrike "In short your brother has no idea what he talking about with regard to the sneak attack rule. He also is behind the power curve if he can't make another class work that is not a full caster." Yes. All I can say to that is "Yes."
@Davor I like your take on it, it's logical and it makes sense.
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Also, from a big brother to a big brother, I think you should give him a wedgie.
Gotta keep little brothers in line ;)
I'm quite sure 3.5 writers would agree with him (granted they really couldn't write for kobold feces but...) and even by 3.5 standards he's wrong too huh?
I'm saying that since pathfinder and 3.5 have the same language about reaching vital spots, and 3.5 used that language to come to a very similar conclusion to your brothers, that the idea isn't as whacky as it appears. It is A legitimate rules interpretation, if not the best one in my opinion because there are at least two things a halfling with a longsword could reach on on ogre that most count as vital.
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Also, from a big brother to a big brother, I think you should give him a wedgie.
Gotta keep little brothers in line ;)
Just showed him the thread. Just saw your post. Just showed him your post.
My face when.
He just ran out of the room at that point :P
I have to say, this made my day. :D
At first this was a thread about Rogue Sneak Attack vs Larger Creatures.
Now it's a thread about Large Creatures sneak attacking shorter ones.
Give your brother a noogie, then go nova on him with a well-crafted magus or fighter.
Re: interpretations, it is a legitimate interpretation for D&D. I have a hard time viewing it as a legitimate interpretation for Pathfinder. The game doesn't identify what "vitals" are, and before we try to identify them remember that golems, rat swarms (harder due to being unflankable, but still possible via invisibility or, possibly, Stealth), and even animated objects have "vitals" according to the rules for sneak attacks. Where are the "vitals" on an animated iron ingot or 300 rats? Not our problem!
Basically, the rogue is assumed to have more knowledge in identifying weak points than we, the players, so we simply don't worry about it. That said, a GM is free to use the "must be able to reach such a spot" clause to adjudicate the availability of a sneak attack, but since the rogue is often viewed as "underpowered", use this ability with discretion or you'll end up with a pissed off player.
(One possibility works great with constructs: Finding the red stone/runes/thermal exhaust port/whatever that holds the construct together. "Attack its weak point for maximum damage!" Even then, I'd use it for flavor rather than actually have it affect whether the rogue can mechanically reach the area.)
At first this was a thread about Rogue Sneak Attack vs Larger Creatures.
Now it's a thread about Large Creatures sneak attacking shorter ones.
Ahahahaha! *grapple* *pin* *tie up* *hang up on coat hook*
Give your brother a noogie, then go nova on him with a well-crafted magus or fighter.
Re: interpretations, it is a legitimate interpretation for D&D. I have a hard time viewing it as a legitimate interpretation for Pathfinder. The game doesn't identify what "vitals" are, and before we try to identify them remember that golems, rat swarms (harder due to being unflankable, but still possible via invisibility or, possibly, Stealth), and even animated objects have "vitals" according to the rules for sneak attacks. Where are the "vitals" on an animated iron ingot or 300 rats? Not our problem!
Basically, the rogue is assumed to have more knowledge in identifying weak points than we, the players, so we simply don't worry about it. That said, a GM is free to use the "must be able to reach such a spot" clause to adjudicate the availability of a sneak attack, but since the rogue is often viewed as "underpowered", use this ability with discretion or you'll end up with a pissed off player.
(One possibility works great with constructs: Finding the red stone/runes/thermal exhaust port/whatever that holds the construct together. "Attack its weak point for maximum damage!" Even then, I'd use it for flavor rather than actually have it affect whether the rogue can mechanically reach the area.)
Everyone on this board wants me to either give my brother a noogie, a wedgie, or put him on a coat rack. I like this thread :3.
I like that post too, logical look at it; and in the end ruling is ultimately up to the GM, and you mention good points that I didn't think of to be honest. O.o