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This is something that has been bugging me for a while now. A monk--a character class that is explicibly a martial class--has a very small pool of ki.
Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack. In addition, he can spend 1 point to increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 ddoge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Now, in how many uses of ki a monk gains, it most closely resembles a paladin's lay on hands--which can also be a swift action (daily uses are 1/2 paladin level plus Charisma). But one that heals himself of up to 10d6 points of damage. A paladin can instead use their ability as a standard action to heal others. Or he can make a touch attack against undead dealing up to 10d6 points of damage. Or he can spend two uses to Channel Postive Energy as a cleric of his level. Plus the Paladin gains smite evil, spells, divine grace, auras out of the bakoodle, divine health, a divine bond or mount, etc., etc., etc.
Looking at the Barbarian and the Bard, we see that these two classes also receive a special ability with a limited number of uses per day: Barbarian Rage and Bardic Performance. But their limited number of uses greatly exceed that of the monk! At first level, each of these two classes can activate their powers for 4 rounds + either Constitution modifier (Barbarian) or Charisma modifier (Bard). Each additional level adds 2 more rounds! Further, a barbarian can enter rage as a FREE ACTION. Bards start out using their performance as a standard action (to start, but only a free to maintain), but at 7th they become a move action to start and at 13th a swift action!
By 20th level, an average Bard or Barbarian will have 48+ rounds available. A 20th level monk will have (on average) 16+ ki points.
So, my question is this: why the disparity? Why do bards and barbarians have THREE times the endurance of a monk on average (if the monk doesn't spend 2 or 3 ki points on certain powers). Why did the developers put such a huge gap between the classes and what they can do? It just seems . . . off to me.
Master Arminas
Presumably because rage / performance are "meant" to be up every round or thereabouts, and ki is not meant to be used every round.
Ki point buys you another attack. That is quite a lot. Especially if it stacks with haste (a matter never really explained - the vague similar effect language used in haste description is too vague).
And a Bard can add +4 to hit and damage to himself and ALL of his allies that hear his performance with Inspire Courage. Those bonuses are competence that stack with everything else in the books! And he can keep those bonuses going for three rounds.
Seriously, Drejk? That is valued the same as one additional attack on a full-attack action for one round?
Master Arminas
Seriously, Drejk? That is valued the same as one additional attack on a full-attack action for one round?
No, they are not of the same value and should not be because bardic performance is primary ability of a bard, while ki points are secondary ability.
Because monks are overpowered melee monsters, duh.
ROFLMAO!
Master Arminas
Monks shouldn't have to take vows that limit their actions in the game, RD, to have a larger pool of ki. In my humble opinion.
Master Arminas
Monks don't need that many ki points because they have vows...
^ ...is what the developers would surely say on the matter. ;P
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Whoa! Master Arminas is psychic!?
No, they are not of the same value and should not be because bardic performance is primary ability of a bard, while ki points are secondary ability.
Really? Ki points are a secondary ability? What would you consider the Monk's primary ability to be? The ability to do improved unarmed damage? Flurry of Blows? Because, in comparison, those also fall behind. Just my personal opinion.
I agree with Master Arminas. The Monk's Ki Pool seems extremely more limited, especially considering that, even though some of the Ki abilities are helpful, none of them seem to be that particularly great when compared to Rage or Inspire Courage.
Would be cool to see some added Ki abilities to actually support the Monk's basic idea of being a mobile fighter, i.e., the ability to use flurry as a standard action instead of requiring a full attack.
Not saying that whats there isn't okay. Just saying... since the Monk is lacking in BAB and party support abilities, would be cool to see some more varied possibilities with Ki.
LOL?
I mean, a barbarian can rage 48 runds a day, it's clearly umbalanced if a sorcer can't use their most powerfull spell each round of each day! I propose that a sorcer must have 2x level + CHA number of his highest spell slot. Anything less than 50 meteor swarm per day is just a rip off compared to bards. After all, it's their defining ability!
Also, Inquistor should be able to judge at least 40 times per day. And Paladin smite evil should be upped to 67 times per day, + CHA of course. And i'm forgetting Magi. Their Arcane Pool also should be incresed to 2x level + INT. After all, if they can't spell recall 30-40 spell per day it's just a joke.
Seriusly, resource management anyone?
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LOL?
I mean, a barbarian can rage 48 runds a day, it's clearly umbalanced if a sorcer can't use their most powerfull spell each round of each day! I propose that a sorcer must have 2x level + CHA number of his highest spell slot. Anything less than 50 meteor swarm per day is just a rip off compared to bards. After all, it's their defining ability!Also, Inquistor should be able to judge at least 40 times per day. And Paladin smite evil should be upped to 67 times per day, + CHA of course. And i'm forgetting Magi. Their Arcane Pool also should be incresed to 2x level + INT. After all, if they can't spell recall 30-40 spell per day it's just a joke.
Seriusly, resource management anyone?
Funny. No one is saying that Sorcerers do not have enough high level spell slots--nor Magi. You are seriously comparing a 9th-level spell, meteor swarm, to what a monk can get from ki pool? Seriously?
I hope you are a troll.
At the levels that a Bard or Barbarian have 48+ rounds of rage or bardic performance, Sorcerers have 54+ spell slots per day. Bards have 30+ spell slots per day. Monks have (on average) 16 ki points. Paladins have around 16 uses of lay on hands; plus 14+ spells they can prepare; plus 7 uses of smite evil; plus . . . oh, they get tons of stuff.
It isn't a question of resource management, it is a question of why?
Master Arminas
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I think the idea of Ki Points was added in to give the monk the ability to do things beyond his normal abilities. It makes sense that the devs would model this after Lay on Hands, but compared to Lay on Hands, monk Ki is kinda lackluster.
I actually think this is one aspect of the class that will get an upgrade when the core classes get updated. I'd like to see it at Monk Level + Wisdom modifier + 2 as the base. This means you can get the flavor of the class without needing to pump up Wisdom, but it also means that someone who focuses on Wisdom and Ki powers (especially the Qinggong and Ki Mystic archetypes) get way more bang for their buck.
*Edit: I also think Magi should have more Arcane Pool points for what they can do with them.
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Funny. No one is saying that Sorcerers do not have enough high level spell slots--nor Magi. You are seriously comparing a 9th-level spell, meteor swarm, to what a monk can get from ki pool? Seriously?
I hope you are a troll.
At the levels that a Bard or Barbarian have 48+ rounds of rage or bardic performance, Sorcerers have 54+ spell slots per day. Bards have 30+ spell slots per day. Monks have (on average) 16 ki points. Paladins have around 16 uses of lay on hands; plus 14+ spells they can prepare; plus 7 uses of smite evil; plus . . . oh, they get tons of stuff.
It isn't a question of resource management, it is a question of why?
Master Arminas
I hope for the best that no one is saying that. I get that my sarcasm was not grasped, so i'll try to explain in a more simple way.
Monks have half level + stats ki point, because is supposed to be a situational ability you are to manage to get out of stingy situation. Is not comparable to barbarian rage, who is nearly the only reason you start playing the barbarian in the first palce. Same with the bard.
Ki pool is a situational boost, and so is available in the same quantity as other situational boost like Lay on Hand, Arcane Pool, Ninja Ki Pool.
Monks are monks even when out of ki. Barbarian are not barbarian when not raging and Bards are not Bards when not performing something (may it be Inspire Courage or Blade Dance or any other of that line). That's the difference and the reason behind the difference in availability.
I'm really flabbergasted at the fact that some people need this to be explained on such rudimental terms. I thought anyone whould have been able to grasp that.
Because Paizo needs more content for their upcoming books they intentionally nerf the monk so they can sell buffs.
The lack of points isn't necessarily so bad; it's the small effect you get out of each point. Compare to a Magus, who functionally has the same amount of points roughly. For each one, he gets a +1 or better enhancement that stacks with existing ones on his weapon for the entire combat. Or you can use them to regain spell slots. Or later on regain spells you never even prepped in the first place! Monk gets...a single extra attack, +4 AC for a round, some stupid jump bonus for a round, and whole bunch of other weak, extremely short duration crap.
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Funny. No one is saying that Sorcerers do not have enough high level spell slots--nor Magi. You are seriously comparing a 9th-level spell, meteor swarm, to what a monk can get from ki pool? Seriously?
I hope you are a troll.
At the levels that a Bard or Barbarian have 48+ rounds of rage or bardic performance, Sorcerers have 54+ spell slots per day. Bards have 30+ spell slots per day. Monks have (on average) 16 ki points. Paladins have around 16 uses of lay on hands; plus 14+ spells they can prepare; plus 7 uses of smite evil; plus . . . oh, they get tons of stuff.
It isn't a question of resource management, it is a question of why?
Master Arminas
I hope for the best that no one is saying that. I get that my sarcasm was not grasped, so i'll try to explain in a more simple way.
Monks have half level + stats ki point, because is supposed to be a situational ability you are to manage to get out of stingy situation. Is not comparable to barbarian rage, who is nearly the only reason you start playing the barbarian in the first palce. Same with the bard.
Ki pool is a situational boost, and so is available in the same quantity as other situational boost like Lay on Hand, Arcane Pool, Ninja Ki Pool.
Monks are monks even when out of ki. Barbarian are not barbarian when not raging and Bards are not Bards when not performing something (may it be Inspire Courage or Blade Dance or any other of that line). That's the difference and the reason behind the difference in availability.I'm really flabbergasted at the fact that some people need this to be explained on such rudimental terms. I thought anyone whould have been able to grasp that.
The problem arises in that later appearing abilities are also 'fueled' through that ki pool, Dekalinder. If ki pool only paid for either one additional attack during a flurry, a +4 dodge bonus to AC, or a +20' bonus to speed, it might well be sufficient. But High Jump is based on ki (1 point for a +20 bonus on acrobatics), Wholeness of Body is based on ki (2 points as a standard action to heal equal to monk level), Abundant Step (2 points to dimension door as a move action that still ends a monk's turn--and he can't take anyone with him), and Empty Body (3 points to go ethereal for 1 minute). Ki pool isn't a situation boost, it is what powers the heart and soul of the monk. AND, the monk has to keep 1 point in reserve just to let his fists bypass some forms of damage reduction.
Of course a monk remains a monk even when he runs out of ki. And a barbarian stays a barbarian when he is out of rage. But does it strain the imagination to ask why the Barbarian and the Bard have such an extended endurance in what they can do, while the Monk (who is just is much a martial class) has (on average) lags so far behind?
Master Arminas
Whoa! Master Arminas is psychic!?
No, I was responding to first post, and then something weird happened. LOL I wish I was psychic.
Master Arminas
Actually, you interrupted my joke. So I deleted, reposted, and made a new joke.
I would have sent you a private message, asking you to delete your post, but it doesn't seem that I can.
Actually, you interrupted my joke. So I deleted, reposted, and made a new joke.
I would have sent you a private message, asking you to delete your post, but it doesn't seem that I can.
Sorry, RD. Didn't mean to mess up your joke.
Master Arminas
Why would you compare meteor swarm with what a monk can do? Why not something like SMIX? :P
And a Bard can add +4 to hit and damage to himself and ALL of his allies that hear his performance with Inspire Courage.
At level 17, sure. And at level 17, a monk would probably have something like 13+ ki points, which is probably plenty for one day.
That seems like an odd level to make comparisons at, though.
Now everybody is forgetting about the class with the smallest resource pool, the Gunslinger, wisdom mod grit points that doesn't increase as they level.
Gunslingers do get to regenerate said pool during play - with lucky dice rolls it'll be regenerating almost as fast as it can be spent.
Agreed.
It's at levels 5 and 10 where I'd look to see where stuff plays.
Not that it matters. Inspire Courage is much better than even the later 2 point Ki burns, at every level.
This is why I like the Ki Mystic archetype. And I refuse to check the FAQ as to whether that archtype's extra points can be used in the traditional ways.
Honestly I've felt that one of the things that the designers have failed to capitalize on is feats that are fueled by Ki.
Also, why does the Extra Ki feat only give 2 Ki?
Also, why does the Extra Ki feat only give 2 Ki?
Because extra lay on hand gives 2 uses, extra arcane pool gives 2 point ecc. ecc. You get the drill.
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No, they are not of the same value and should not be because bardic performance is primary ability of a bard, while ki points are secondary ability.Really? Ki points are a secondary ability? What would you consider the Monk's primary ability to be? The ability to do improved unarmed damage? Flurry of Blows? Because, in comparison, those also fall behind. Just my personal opinion.
The monk's ki pool is designed to be only secondary because Paizo invented it for Pathfinder. The D&D 3rd Edition monk lacked a ki pool, though the class's ability to make unarmed strikes count as magical was called ki. Giving the monk a new primary ability would have hurt backwards compatibility.
Yet, since Paizo was trying to fix some major weaknesses in the monk, they made the ki pool is stronger than some of the monk's primary abilities. I assume that is why they put a tight cap on how often it could be used.
Funny. No one is saying that Sorcerers do not have enough high level spell slots--nor Magi. You are seriously comparing a 9th-level spell, meteor swarm, to what a monk can get from ki pool? Seriously?
I hope you are a troll.
At the levels that a Bard or Barbarian have 48+ rounds of rage or bardic performance, Sorcerers have 54+ spell slots per day. Bards have 30+ spell slots per day. Monks have (on average) 16 ki points. Paladins have around 16 uses of lay on hands; plus 14+ spells they can prepare; plus 7 uses of smite evil; plus . . . oh, they get tons of stuff.
It isn't a question of resource management, it is a question of why?
Master Arminas
I hope for the best that no one is saying that. I get that my sarcasm was not grasped, so i'll try to explain in a more simple way.
Monks have half level + stats ki point, because is supposed to be a situational ability you are to manage to get out of stingy situation. Is not comparable to barbarian rage, who is nearly the only reason you start playing the barbarian in the first palce. Same with the bard.
Ki pool is a situational boost, and so is available in the same quantity as other situational boost like Lay on Hand, Arcane Pool, Ninja Ki Pool.
Monks are monks even when out of ki. Barbarian are not barbarian when not raging and Bards are not Bards when not performing something (may it be Inspire Courage or Blade Dance or any other of that line). That's the difference and the reason behind the difference in availability.I'm really flabbergasted at the fact that some people need this to be explained on such rudimental terms. I thought anyone whould have been able to grasp that.
Barbarian and bards are poor examples of classes crippled when their primary ability runs out of charges. A barbarian is still a full BAB combat class while rage is exhausted and the player can still roleplay him striking in savage anger. A bard still has his verbal-component (i.e. singing) spells and his Versatile Performance skills. Roleplaying is not hindered, though the characters would be roleplayed as worn down from a long day. Primary spellcasting classes would have been a better example, because a wizard without spells is not a wizard. Oh, except wizards get cantrips, so they never run out of spells entirely.
Perhaps this is why Master Arminas was comparing the monk to the barbarian and bard rather than to the sorcerer and wizard.
I agree that the heart of roleplaying a monk is the unarmed strikes, the leaping into combat, the combat manuevers, and the lightning-fast weapon strikes (flurry of blows), not turning ethereal from spending ki. Except that flurry of blows is not quite lightning fast without the extra attack from the ki pool, and the best leaping from high jump requires spending ki. I don't see where making an extra attack is a situational ability, unless you count combat itself as a situation. It is not like the Crane Wing feat that lets the monk deflect a melee attack or the Ki Mystic monk's Mystic Insight ability to spend 2 ki points to grant an ally a reroll on an attack roll or saving throw. Those depend on a particular situation that the monk cannot predetermine. That is what situational means.
Perhaps Dekalinder meant that ki pool is supposed to be an emergency measure, an ability to be saved for a desperate situation rather than used routinely (does "stingy situation" mean "tight situation"? I am not familiar with that idiom). In which case, it had better be so powerful that it could rescue a party member in trouble. Instead, its most powerful uses are a single extra attack, Abundant Step, and Empty Body. One extra attack is seldom enough to save the day, especially when it cannot be combined with movement. Abundant Step ends the turn, so it is too slow for popping in to rescue someone. Empty Body rescues only the monk. The emergency-measure explanation fails because ki pool abilities are poorly designed for helping the rest of the party (except the Ki Mystic's Mystic Insight).
And with unlucky rolls, they'll be drier than a whale beached in the middle of Death Valley.Now everybody is forgetting about the class with the smallest resource pool, the Gunslinger, wisdom mod grit points that doesn't increase as they level.Gunslingers do get to regenerate said pool during play - with lucky dice rolls it'll be regenerating almost as fast as it can be spent.
Well, let's not forget shoot someone unconscious: Point gained.
Well, let's not forget shoot someone unconscious: Point gained.
No grit point for you. Rules explicitly state that shooting helpless creatures or those unaware of you do not restore grit. Unconscious creature is both.
the monk totally without ki point abilties is better than the monk completly without performances or the barbarian completly without rage rounds, thus the monks ability should be either a lot weaker or a lot rarer.
They went for something between the two, he got less ki-points and his ki-abilities are good, but not really as good as rage abilities or some performances.
Is it balanced perfectly? No, no class is, but it's good enough.
For those who think that the monk is the weakest class, they might want to rebalance it with upping the ki-points to class lvl + wis, but the developers seem okay with the general power lvl of the monk.
Well, let's not forget shoot someone unconscious: Point gained.No grit point for you. Rules explicitly state that shooting helpless creatures or those unaware of you do not restore grit. Unconscious creature is both.
No I mean put them down into negatives. Of course you don't get a point for shooting helpless creatures.
Also, why does the Extra Ki feat only give 2 Ki?Because extra lay on hand gives 2 uses, extra arcane pool gives 2 point ecc. ecc. You get the drill.
Yeah I get the drill.
My point is that it follows the much more plentiful points or rounds in other classes.I agree with Master Arminas. The monk needs more Ki points.
Or
A better way to increase the pool.
Or
A faster method of replenishment, not 8 hours of rest like a full caster's spells.
A short meditative break = a fraction if Ki recovered.
I think rest/meditation to restore Ki is fine, but, like Arminas, I think the Monk needs more Ki points. I personally do not believe that the abilities a Monk can employ with his Ki are that fantastic. At least, they aren't so great as to warrant a huge limitation like they have.
Now, I don't see why a Monk can't have his full Monk level+Wis Mod to determine the number of Ki points, at the very least. Its not a big boost, but, the number seems a bit more fair at least.
At level 20, my Monk build would have 26 Ki Points. Still not as great as a Barbarian's Rage or Bard's Performance at the same level, but its more respectable.
Would also be nice to see some more ki abilities that actually support the Monk's role as being a 'mobile fighter'. Because, as it stands, it doesn't have much. I've found that it can be mobile, and it can fight, but it cant do both very well when combined.
Maybe a Ki ability to let you Flurry as a standard. Or some way to use Abundant Step and still attack in the same turn, otherwise, its not that great in combat.
Of course, I am still very new to all this, and incredibly inexperienced, so my logic may be flawed.
The problem with the Ki Mat is that it is yet another (very)expensive magic item.
10,000gp to maybe recover a single Ki point in an hour. That's steep.
So he can rest for 7 hours and maybe regain 7 point, or he can just rest the last hour and get them all back?
+1. And to think you only spent 10,000 gp for that wonderful* item. I really, really wonder sometimes if the designers actually play monks at all.
*That was sarcasm, in case there was a question.
Master Arminas
5,000gp to craft is pretty cheap. People spend that much or more on things like boots of striding and springing and bags of holding all the time. Neither of those items are going to be more important to a monk than a ki mat. He's already super fast and doesn't carry much gear.
Quinggong gets full Restoration no lesser version.
I think it's an 8th level power.
So to get it for 5k:
Be a Quinggong with a level 8 sub
Have Craft Wonderous Item
Master Craftsman?
Ugh that's rough, I'd rather pay 10k than burn 2 feats.
Or have your party spellcaster make it for you. Even if you have to pay an additional crafting fee or owe a favor, it would be worth it for a monk.
In any case, my point was that the ki point issue isn't much of an issue if the monk has a method of replenishing his ki, such as with a ki mat. The only reason this discussion even exists, is because many people don't realize that there are reasonable options out there for a monk to replenish his ki quickly.
Admittedly if I could substitute my Ki for spell components in crafting then burning multiple feats would be worth it.
It would correct the cost disparity in the AoMF, make Bracers into a near armor comparison cost wise and mean that I might actually get a flurryable weapon with a decent mod before I'm 14th level.
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Or have your party spellcaster make it for you. Even if you have to pay an additional crafting fee or owe a favor, it would be worth it for a monk.
In any case, my point was that the ki point issue isn't much of an issue if the monk has a method of replenishing his ki, such as with a ki mat. The only reason this discussion even exists, is because many people don't realize that there are reasonable options out there for a monk to replenish his ki quickly.
You think spending an hour to get 1 ki point back is reasonable? At that rate, you may as well just take TriOmegaZero's advice and just take a full rest if you've got the kind of time to kill for a Ki Mat to matter. The ONLY other alternative is to make a Drunken Master and pick up a Flask of Endless Sake for 4k, which is probably the best alternative.